Hi I'm new, 6 y/o son has severe ODD (? CD)

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Hi, and welcome.
He must be miserable, rarely sleeping, and always ramped up like that. And I can imagine how miserable he makes it for you.
If the medications aren't doing much, I would consult a psychiatric and wean your difficult child off the medications one by one to see what makes a diff. Frankly, I'd take him off the ADHD medication first. It seems counterintuitive, but since he seems to have a mood disorder, most ADHD medications tend to make those worse.
Is there any medication that makes him sleepy or slows him down?
Also, when he went after his brother in the van, do you remember what happened immediately b4 that? Did his brother ask to borrow the laptop? Was he singing or doing something that an overstimulated kid might interpret as aggravating?
I think that the things that we take for granted--the buzzing of a fluorescent light, a scratchy label on the back of a shirt--that annoy us but it's no big deal--set off your difficult child like a cannon. He just cannot handle it.
I don't know how consistent your household is, but no matter what he's got going on, consistency is of utmost importance.
Also, I would eliminate milk products and wheat even if you think that's too simple; kids who are allergic to those things don't always have "regular" symptoms like bloating or headaches. They can have rages or other issues. You have to view it like a constant infection or weird "ache" that affects the entire body and makes them go wacko, but not knowing why. And adult would say, "I feel off today, like I'm going to get the flu or I have PMS." These kids cannot articulate that at all. They just blow up.

He's GOT to have outside recess, even if it means you take him outside after school. Your description screams "activity" and he is all stressed out with-no place to go.

Do you let him play video games? They increase electrical activity in the frontal lobes so you don't want him on games more than 1 hr a day, even 1/2 hr, max.
I spent weeks watching and studying my son. It was the only thing that kept me sane--feeling like I wanted to murder him but pretending I was Mr. Spock, LOL! I dedicated hours to just watching him, which wasn't easy, because he's always been one to fly under the radar. But I picked up on several things that I would have never noticed had I been going about my "normal" business.

Also, I would keep looking for a good doctor. It is a pain, but once you get one it is worth it.

Stay with us. So glad you found us but ... so sorry.
 

pepperidge

New Member
Wow,first of all my sympathies.

Here is my humble opinion-its not worth much. You obviously have a major problem on your hands. Frankly at this age unless there is some discussion of autism or you suspect some real learning disabilities I am not sure neuropsychologist testing is going to tell you a whole lot.

Second, the medications that your child is on strike me as perhaps some of the problem. I would have expected that someone along the line Risperdal might have been tried to deal with the aggression. Second, I wonder if Ritalin could be making things worse. Third, my son had (twice) a parodoxical reaction to Tenex (made him very aggressive). So I hope you are keeping clear records of what medications he has been on, what you notice in terms of side effects, or primary effects if anything.
Unfortunately most of us with "difficult" difficult children have had a long road of medication trials to come up with combinations that work.


Has anyone spoken to you of reactive attachment disorder? or perhaps of biopolar?

Thinking that you are probably not independently wealthy, you need to think about the best way to spend your money to get this kid help. Therapy--unless you are the world's worst mother which sounds far from the case is probably not going to help him or you as long as you are reasonably consistent and and don't go looking for battles. (Have you read the explosive child?)

So if I were in your shoes, I would be trying to find the best child development clinic I could. Because it sounds like your child needs the combined look of regular peds plus child development specialists plus child psychiatrists. I think there are a few really good clinics in the us and I would be moving heaven and earth to get a team to look at him. And a really good child dev. clinic will look at him much the same way as a neuropsychologist would I think. You are going to want a team that really knows its medications inside and out and isn't afraid to look at some difficult diagnoses. (Has he been tested for fragile X by the way?)

Then if I had time and energy and money I would be looking for a special education lawyer because he doesn't sound like a kid who will accommodated in most public schools in any program. soon as the school realizes that the better. But you will need a lawyer.

You sound like a great mom who has been through the wringer with far more to come. I really hope you can get a team of docs that you feel good about.

good luck. It really stinks, and I am sorry for what you are going through.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Hi Lost Hope,

My daughter, Duckie, hasn't had behaviors to the level of your son but her infancy & toddler-hood are quite similar. The sleeping and screaming stand out. Was he ever tested for reflux? Duckie never spit up but her x-rays showed significant reflux. Also, she was diagnosis'd with cough variant asthma in first grade.... not one doctor/nurse practitioner/nurse had considered asthma for Duckie because she didn't wheeze. But the asthma did keep her from sleeping well. She still has issues but addressing these medical problems has caused a significant improvement in her behavior.
 

Last ♡ Hope

New Member
Hi, and welcome.
He must be miserable, rarely sleeping, and always ramped up like that. And I can imagine how miserable he makes it for you.
If the medications aren't doing much, I would consult a psychiatric and wean your difficult child off the medications one by one to see what makes a diff. Frankly, I'd take him off the ADHD medication first. It seems counterintuitive, but since he seems to have a mood disorder, most ADHD medications tend to make those worse.
Is there any medication that makes him sleepy or slows him down?
Also, when he went after his brother in the van, do you remember what happened immediately b4 that? Did his brother ask to borrow the laptop? Was he singing or doing something that an overstimulated kid might interpret as aggravating?
I think that the things that we take for granted--the buzzing of a fluorescent light, a scratchy label on the back of a shirt--that annoy us but it's no big deal--set off your difficult child like a cannon. He just cannot handle it.
I don't know how consistent your household is, but no matter what he's got going on, consistency is of utmost importance.
Also, I would eliminate milk products and wheat even if you think that's too simple; kids who are allergic to those things don't always have "regular" symptoms like bloating or headaches. They can have rages or other issues. You have to view it like a constant infection or weird "ache" that affects the entire body and makes them go wacko, but not knowing why. And adult would say, "I feel off today, like I'm going to get the flu or I have PMS." These kids cannot articulate that at all. They just blow up.

He's GOT to have outside recess, even if it means you take him outside after school. Your description screams "activity" and he is all stressed out with-no place to go.

Do you let him play video games? They increase electrical activity in the frontal lobes so you don't want him on games more than 1 hr a day, even 1/2 hr, max.
I spent weeks watching and studying my son. It was the only thing that kept me sane--feeling like I wanted to murder him but pretending I was Mr. Spock, LOL! I dedicated hours to just watching him, which wasn't easy, because he's always been one to fly under the radar. But I picked up on several things that I would have never noticed had I been going about my "normal" business.

Also, I would keep looking for a good doctor. It is a pain, but once you get one it is worth it.

Stay with us. So glad you found us but ... so sorry.

He sleeps now, I guess I failed to mention in the book I wrote down there, lol. That first hospitalization they started him on Trazadone and it has been a Godsend. He started going to sleep on his own and staying asleep. It is the one medication that has never failed us. Sure the dose has been increased and decreased as needed, but when it's at whatever level he needs, it works beautifully. Unfortunately, sleeping thru the night did NOTHING to improve his daytime behavior like we all thought it would.

When the incident in the van happened we were heading home from visiting family. It's a 2+ hour trip and we got a late start and he was already over-stimulated before we even climbed in. Not good. In hindsight we should have skipped the Valentine's Day Dinner at my mom's church, which included lots of kids, which ALWAYS overstimulates him, but the rest of us really wanted to go. We so seldom go anywhere or do anything and it drives the rest of us batty...but I digress. difficult child was in full-gear annoying mode, kicking his older sister in the back of the head, kicking the windows of the van - anything to get a reaction from us. We had to stop at a little town just to let him get out and run a bit and keep his sister sane. While there he had to use the restroom and while in the gas station to do that, he attempted to steal a candy bar. We had to wrestle it away from him which made him furious so when we all climbed back into the van, he was worse. He began screaming at the top of his lungs, not crying, just screaming to annoy us. I told everyone to just ignore him, but the baby of course is incapable and he just started bawling from all the noise. Well we are all very VERY protective of our baby, and so older son became upset that difficult child made the baby cry and yelled "JUST SHUT UP [difficult child]!!!" at which point, faster than you can blink, difficult child smashed older brother in the face with said laptop. Just blood everywhere, we couldn't even tell where it was coming from. Horrible. difficult child knowing he'd crossed a very big line, just flipped completely. He says very mean things when he's freaking out and he was threatening to kill us all, etc. Oldest child had to turn around in her seat to watch him because he was out of his booster and belt, refusing to sit, yelling obscenities and I was driving as fast as was safely possible to get back to town calling the hospital as I'm driving telling them they better get a bed ready because in about 45 minutes he was going to be there.

He used to play his older brother's old DS, but it broke and I will not be replacing it. He gets so zoned in on the games that he pees his pants (something he already struggles with, hence the DDAVP) and gets very intense and freaky... like he can't stop. Plus he'd steal his older brother's games and hide them, which caused untold drama. So no more video games for him at all.

I strive for consistency, but it's hard sometimes. The rest of us aren't wired that way at all, we're very easy going, laid back, go-with-the-flowy, so I do try, but it doesn't come naturally for most of us under this roof.
 

Last ♡ Hope

New Member
Wow,first of all my sympathies.

Here is my humble opinion-its not worth much. You obviously have a major problem on your hands. Frankly at this age unless there is some discussion of autism or you suspect some real learning disabilities I am not sure neuropsychologist testing is going to tell you a whole lot.

Second, the medications that your child is on strike me as perhaps some of the problem. I would have expected that someone along the line Risperdal might have been tried to deal with the aggression. Second, I wonder if Ritalin could be making things worse. Third, my son had (twice) a parodoxical reaction to Tenex (made him very aggressive). So I hope you are keeping clear records of what medications he has been on, what you notice in terms of side effects, or primary effects if anything.
Unfortunately most of us with "difficult" difficult children have had a long road of medication trials to come up with combinations that work.


Has anyone spoken to you of reactive attachment disorder? or perhaps of biopolar?

Thinking that you are probably not independently wealthy, you need to think about the best way to spend your money to get this kid help. Therapy--unless you are the world's worst mother which sounds far from the case is probably not going to help him or you as long as you are reasonably consistent and and don't go looking for battles. (Have you read the explosive child?)

So if I were in your shoes, I would be trying to find the best child development clinic I could. Because it sounds like your child needs the combined look of regular peds plus child development specialists plus child psychiatrists. I think there are a few really good clinics in the us and I would be moving heaven and earth to get a team to look at him. And a really good child dev. clinic will look at him much the same way as a neuropsychologist would I think. You are going to want a team that really knows its medications inside and out and isn't afraid to look at some difficult diagnoses. (Has he been tested for fragile X by the way?)

Then if I had time and energy and money I would be looking for a special education lawyer because he doesn't sound like a kid who will accommodated in most public schools in any program. soon as the school realizes that the better. But you will need a lawyer.

You sound like a great mom who has been through the wringer with far more to come. I really hope you can get a team of docs that you feel good about.

good luck. It really stinks, and I am sorry for what you are going through.

I don't have his full list of medications right here with me, but he has been on at least 20, Risperdal made him very very agitated. Abilify as well. The stimulants are new, he failed several, this one hasn't been SUCH a violent fail, but obviously not a success. So many different diagnosis's have been thrown around... bi-polar is one, Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) I haven't heard come up yet...

He has had a full Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) evaluation, no Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). But he does have a sensory processing disorder and has 45 minutes of Occupational Therapist (OT)/week (all insurance would cover).

My computer is dying so I might have to address the rest of these later... :(
 

dreamwallaby

New Member
I wanted to say hi and welcome to the group. I don't have any advice, but wanted to let you know that I also have a 6 yr old son with ODD/ADHD. He is not quite to the level your son is in the fact that he really loves his younger brothers and makes no attempts to hurt them ( he has tripped the 2 yr old for stealing something from him, but that's pretty normal sibling rivalry). He will, however, get very violent with me and it is amazing to me how scary a 6 yr old can be when they are raging. He was suspended twice in kindergarten and his teacher told me she had never had a student act like him. I blew it off figuring he was just adjusting to the new school. Then his first grade teacher told me the same thing :( She was soooo concerned for him, his lack of caring, his outward defiance and aggressive behaviors. I always knew my son was didfficult, but I really didn't want to admit that anything was actually wrong and the idea of medications scared me. We are going for a neuropsychologist evaluation soon.
I completely understand you comment and have often said the same thing, "I love him dearly, but I really don't like him". Hang in there and I hope your are able to find some answers soon.
 

Last ♡ Hope

New Member
Has anyone spoken to you of reactive attachment disorder? or perhaps of biopolar?

Admittedly, I only briefly looked this up via Dr. Google, but doesn't an attachment disorder come out of a situation of neglect (physical or emotional) or prolonged separation during a key developmental time frame? He was born on the heels of a much loved/wanted stillborn baby, so he was very, VERY coddled and loved on. He was exclusively breastfed and worn on my body in slings and mei tais and an Ergo carrier from day one. We were never separated for longer than a work day, and, until he was much older and then only out of desperation, he was never left to cry it out. This is the same way I've mothered all of my babies, yet somehow, he's turned out so differently... :crying:
 

pepperidge

New Member
Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) seemed like a stretch-- I just occurred to me reading of all his ear difficulties and his difficulty settling down when an infant. Probably not the case. Probably more likely some kind of mood disorder --I wish you luck finding a good set of docs. Are you happy with the hospital he is going to? It is so hard, I think many of us on the board have been to more than one psychiatrist before finding one that seems knowledgeable and sensible. You clearly have a kid with major issues, not that that is any consolation.
 

Last ♡ Hope

New Member
Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) seemed like a stretch-- I just occurred to me reading of all his ear difficulties and his difficulty settling down when an infant. Probably not the case. Probably more likely some kind of mood disorder --I wish you luck finding a good set of docs. Are you happy with the hospital he is going to? It is so hard, I think many of us on the board have been to more than one psychiatrist before finding one that seems knowledgeable and sensible. You clearly have a kid with major issues, not that that is any consolation.

I am NOT happy with his Dr. - While she is very kind and caring, she is, in my opinion, scattered and disorganized and I am really starting to have my doubts as to her competency in this particular situation... I just don't know how on earth to go about getting someone else, we don't live in the biggest city. And the hospital stay is a joke, I think they are using it more as respite care, tbh. If we could get him into that residential facility for a few months, so they could wean him off his medications, observe and start over, that to me would be one hundred times better then just hanging out in the phospital again. Seventh time. Dang.
 

pepperidge

New Member
If you care to share the state or metropolitian area that you are near maybe someone could private message you with a recommendation of a good child development clinic....
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I am sorry that life with your son - who as you say loves you and whom you love - has turned out to be so very hard.
I am a little confused about the medications he is on. You have explained that the medication that helps him sleep is very effective. But, for the rest, have you noticed that they help him and if so how? They don't seem to be making him less violent, for example. Getting the right medication seems to be a long and meticulous process, involving trial and error? Just to play devil's advocate (and I do not know the answer to this!), what would happen if you took him off medications altogether - would his behaviour be even worse?
Just a note about your understandable feeling of horror when he pretended to "shoot" people with his fingers from your car... I honestly don't feel that that in itself is all that abnormal or sinister. Little boys, and some little boys in particular, do need to "play" at violence and always have done, I think. My son regularly says to me "Hands up, I"m going to shoot you!" (in fun, not anger). But it doesn't make me think he has a future as an armed robber... He plays aggressively all the time, or rather pseudo-aggressively, but still understands that it is wrong to hurt people and seems to be able to modify his aggression so that it does not cross some limit. Most of the time.
There is something about violence that is very helpless, desperate. When your son smashed his brother in the face that was obviously very scary and I can only imagine how each one of you felt afterwards... But one senses your son's total frustration and lack of skill in expressing his feelings verbally or by other means... Do you have child therapists in the States who would work with your son in terms of developing his skills to react non-violently? Presuming that this is an option for your son and obviously without any knowledge of what is actually going on in his brain that makes him act like this...
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I was also thinking mood disorder. Young children with mood disorders CAN (not always) be obsessed with blood and gore. Does he have any dreams that are filled with blood and very graphic? Have you read "The Bipolar Child?" The author's name alludes me, but it is a very good book. Was your ex husband violent in any way? Are there any mood disorders or substance abuse in the family tree? We adopted one child at elevin who had reaction attachment disorder and he was very dangerous. In t he end, we relinquished our parental rights because he was a risk to both the family and the community. I agree with you however that this is probably not the core issue with your son...the birth was traumatic...maybe that caused some issues...? I think the main thing is to keep your family safe.

I mentioned bipolar/mood disorder in children because it is common for children with mood disorders to open the car door while it is moving. Scary, I know! I know I had a mood disorder even as a child and, while I did not try to jump out of a car, I did have fantasies of throwing myself out the window of my second floor bedroom and off balconies when I was on field trips from school. Does your son have any friends?
I am sorry...I did not understand how severe this was.
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
There's a whole lot to remember, that's one of the few things I recall, everything else I have to go back and make sure I'm not confusing different people.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Yep. Get a new dr.

My son wet his pants while playing video games, too.

The candy bar I think is an impulse thing. You and I may think, "Yum, a candy bar. Do I want to buy one or am I on a diet?" difficult child doesn't think--just grabs. See the difference?

I am glad to see that he was ramped up b4 even getting in the van. That answers a lot of questions. You are going to have to keep him out of stimulating situations for a while. It is very hard--I only had two kids and it really cramped our style (aka Busch Gardens) but it saved a lot of meltdowns. We flew to Calif for Christmas one yr, and every day we did something. The day we were supposed to go either to Disney or Knots Berry Farm, husband and I decided to keep difficult child home. It was the smartest thing we ever did. He slept on and off, watched football, ate when he wanted, and the next day he was an angel. These kids need a lot of down time.
Again, I know how hard it is when you've got lots of kids, so you have to make a plan. Maybe get a babysitter more often? Also, I only took difficult child to the grocery store 1/2 the time, because I needed to focus on shopping sometimes!
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
I'll be honest with you, when Jett was on concerta (which is pretty much time-release ritalin), he went from a slightly wimpy kid to MAJOR BRAT. Hitting people, screaming at people, on and on and on. He did sleep - he took the concerta in the morning, was HORRIBLE in the afternoon, crashed at about 8:30 PM. Would sleepwalk, he was so worn out. Urinated all over the floor in his room. That stopped when we weaned him off of it.

You do need help. That's quite clear!!! I do think a neuropsychologist would be a good idea.

Also - Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) can happen when there are bonding issues, when there is adoption, where there is trauma - or for no good reason. And it sounds to me like he had some serious trauma, what with the ears. If he had that many infections at that young of an age, something in his brain may have associated other people in general with PAIN. Ear pain, in my opinion is second only to tooth pain and followed by foot pain.

I don't have much more to offer, but I can tell you my experience at least.
 

Last ♡ Hope

New Member
Sorry to overload you all - like I said, this is the first time in six years I've found anyone familiar with what we are going through! I probably have your collective heads swimming at this point.

He is home with me today while we await an empty bed at the hospital. He's definitely hyper, pinging off the walls, but not being willful or aggressive. I think he needs the down time from a rotten week at school and OSS.

The alt. school has this attitude that he needs to "learn a lesson" with regards to his behaviors, and they send home notes to me about how his behaviors are "unacceptable" and "will not be tolerated", etc. and it makes me feel even worse about everything because HELLO - his behaviors are WHY he was sent to YOUR school and I was led to believe that you had the ability to deal with difficult children like him. And furthermore, WHAT do you want me to do about it, exactly? Homeschool him? So you don't have to be bothered anymore? ::banging head against wall::

I live in the cold, snowy midwest US if that helps anyone...
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
And, sadly, his behaviors are probably not all (or possibly not at all) within his control.

When I used to have a raging tantrum as a child, which happened about once a month, I would want to stop, but I couldn't. It is very hard to explain. The more people tried to talk to me, the angrier I got. But if my mom took my siblings into her room and locked the door, I'd get furious too and throw things at the door.

I'm soooooooooooooooo sorry.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
This is exactly why I don't like the basic alternative schools. The one they had Onyxx in last year was mostly juvenile delinquents with no intentions whatsoever of changing their ways. Some of the friends she made (and still has - UGH) were NOT people you want your kid bringing home. The fact is, many of them exist to keep the kids "out of trouble", and so they just punish and punish and punish - and they don't bother to HELP. The one Onyxx was at? Actually told me that Residential Treatment Center (RTC) and therapy would be pointless for her. DO WHAT? So you're telling me to give up on the child?

I know exactly how you feel. And homeschooling just doesn't work too well for some of our kids... You may be right about him needing time to decompress. Still... If they have an opening for him, would a medication wash be possible? Mostly just to see what is what really. Just a thought...
 
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