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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 267300" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Feel free to use my words. but re-word them for yourself, to remove typos etc.</p><p></p><p>It's nothing I haven't said before. it's also something that was strongly brought home to me when I read "Explosive Child" because Ross Greene explained it so well.</p><p></p><p>As a rule, children want to please us. A child who keeps getting it wrong, may be doing the wrong thing for a number of reasons:</p><p></p><p>1) He may not know what is wrong or what is right. And you can't find out simply by asking a child, because again, a child will try to tell you what he thinks you wantto hear. "You know that you're not supposed to do that, don't you?" is going to get a "yes" response even if the child doesn't understand, because the question prompts the answer.</p><p>[on an aside - I was in an advanced Maths class in my final year of high school, out teacher was VERY confronting and moved through the topic very quickl. We WERE an advanced class, after all. But at some point, we individually began to realise that where we thought we understood the topic, we were a bit shakier than we thought. But instead of speaking up and saying, "excuse me sir, but I've just realised I haven't fully grasped this, could you explain it again?" we were scared of his angry reaction, because we'd seen a lot of it, so we each quietly decided to keep fudging our way through and hopefully catch up by private study. Only it didn't work. Two weeks later he's firing questions at us and HE finally realises, none of us understand the topic. Boy, did we get yelled at! Because we had been too afraid to say, "We're struggling here, please explain," we had let him think we did understand in the hope that it was the lesser path, the path that would keep the teacher happier with us.]</p><p></p><p>A difficult child who is trying to fit in but knows he is struggling, is like we were with that Maths teacher. A kid will often do or say whatever he feels it will take, in order to stop people being angry with him for now. The consequences of fudging in this way are then postponed.</p><p></p><p>2) He may know what is wrong but be unable to comply. For example, a child who is impulsive or has a short fuse can have his buttons pushed to the point where he explodes. It's no use rehearsing what he should do, because when he's upset all rehearsal goes out the window. Of course when he calms down, he knows he did ther wrong thing and is often very remorseful, often very angry with himself. But it still will happen again. And again.</p><p></p><p>3) He may be having difficulty with certain class tasks because of physical or mental inability. This is a subtle variation on the previous points. For example, a kid who has trouble with writing tasks could be having trouble because his hands hurt when he wrotes. Or he could have trouble because he can't find the words he wants to use. Or he could have trouble with sequencing his thoughts in his head (important, to write a story or a process). You can't discipline a kid because of this, the kid needs help. To punish a kid who is struggling like this, or to threaten to take away privileges, is to set the kid up for failure not only now, but in the future. The longer the child goes without someoe actually LOOKING to see whay the kid is having difficulties, the more of the child's learning time is wasted and the deeper-set become the tracks of his ongoing failure to achieve. He increasingly then beleives he's useless, he's bad, he is dumb and is worthless. Instead, if you identify the underlying problem with the task and help the child find different ways to achieve the outcome, you are turning the failure into ongoing success. To punish a child who is really struggling, is as bad as punishing a blind child for failing to copy accurately form the blackboard. And just as idiotic.</p><p></p><p>What is the purpose of discipline? It is to train, to teach, to help the child learn the right way to behave. The purpose of discipline is NOT vengeance for misbehaviour. But too often, thqat is how it is perceived. And if the child perceives punishment to be vengeance, then instead of it helping the child to learn to change, the child will learn to be angry and resentful. Counterproductive.</p><p></p><p>Or, to put it simply - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.</p><p></p><p>A child will respond best to positive motivation. But not all the positive motivation in the world, will help a deaf child pick up a tune that you sing to him. difficult child 1's first pediatricia explained it this way:</p><p>"I can sit difficult child 1 down and say, 'If you sit still for five minutes, I will give you $50.' But he won't be able to do it. He will be highly motivated to win that money, but not all the motivation in the world will help him achieve it."</p><p></p><p>In order to learn, a child needs to know what is expected. He needs to be capable of doing what is expected. And once he achieves it (if he achieves it) then a reward (such as praise) will help reinforce that success, thereby increasing the chance of success next time.</p><p></p><p>If there is a break in the link of the discipline chain anywhere along it, then discipline will be ineffective. So instead of wasting your energy trying to up the ante with discipline, your energty is best expended trying to fix the breaks in the links, or perhaps find another chain that isn't broken.</p><p></p><p>I could be trying to parent a six month old baby, and decide, "I don't want to wait for tis baby to walk at 13 months of age. I want the baby to walk now, it would be far more convenient for me."</p><p>So I decide to punish the baby for not walking. I could smack the baby whenever he is found not walking. Or I could give him a stern talking to, "I need you to get up and walk! Stop lying around being lazy!"</p><p>The talking to - will the baby even understand my words?</p><p>The spanking - will it speed up the baby's walking? After all, if I keep it up for another 7 months, I will get what I want - a walking baby. See? It worked, eventually.</p><p></p><p>A lot of what people try to do in terms of disciplining difficult children, is about as ludicrous as this.</p><p></p><p>Feel free to use these analogies to get through to the school.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 267300, member: 1991"] Feel free to use my words. but re-word them for yourself, to remove typos etc. It's nothing I haven't said before. it's also something that was strongly brought home to me when I read "Explosive Child" because Ross Greene explained it so well. As a rule, children want to please us. A child who keeps getting it wrong, may be doing the wrong thing for a number of reasons: 1) He may not know what is wrong or what is right. And you can't find out simply by asking a child, because again, a child will try to tell you what he thinks you wantto hear. "You know that you're not supposed to do that, don't you?" is going to get a "yes" response even if the child doesn't understand, because the question prompts the answer. [on an aside - I was in an advanced Maths class in my final year of high school, out teacher was VERY confronting and moved through the topic very quickl. We WERE an advanced class, after all. But at some point, we individually began to realise that where we thought we understood the topic, we were a bit shakier than we thought. But instead of speaking up and saying, "excuse me sir, but I've just realised I haven't fully grasped this, could you explain it again?" we were scared of his angry reaction, because we'd seen a lot of it, so we each quietly decided to keep fudging our way through and hopefully catch up by private study. Only it didn't work. Two weeks later he's firing questions at us and HE finally realises, none of us understand the topic. Boy, did we get yelled at! Because we had been too afraid to say, "We're struggling here, please explain," we had let him think we did understand in the hope that it was the lesser path, the path that would keep the teacher happier with us.] A difficult child who is trying to fit in but knows he is struggling, is like we were with that Maths teacher. A kid will often do or say whatever he feels it will take, in order to stop people being angry with him for now. The consequences of fudging in this way are then postponed. 2) He may know what is wrong but be unable to comply. For example, a child who is impulsive or has a short fuse can have his buttons pushed to the point where he explodes. It's no use rehearsing what he should do, because when he's upset all rehearsal goes out the window. Of course when he calms down, he knows he did ther wrong thing and is often very remorseful, often very angry with himself. But it still will happen again. And again. 3) He may be having difficulty with certain class tasks because of physical or mental inability. This is a subtle variation on the previous points. For example, a kid who has trouble with writing tasks could be having trouble because his hands hurt when he wrotes. Or he could have trouble because he can't find the words he wants to use. Or he could have trouble with sequencing his thoughts in his head (important, to write a story or a process). You can't discipline a kid because of this, the kid needs help. To punish a kid who is struggling like this, or to threaten to take away privileges, is to set the kid up for failure not only now, but in the future. The longer the child goes without someoe actually LOOKING to see whay the kid is having difficulties, the more of the child's learning time is wasted and the deeper-set become the tracks of his ongoing failure to achieve. He increasingly then beleives he's useless, he's bad, he is dumb and is worthless. Instead, if you identify the underlying problem with the task and help the child find different ways to achieve the outcome, you are turning the failure into ongoing success. To punish a child who is really struggling, is as bad as punishing a blind child for failing to copy accurately form the blackboard. And just as idiotic. What is the purpose of discipline? It is to train, to teach, to help the child learn the right way to behave. The purpose of discipline is NOT vengeance for misbehaviour. But too often, thqat is how it is perceived. And if the child perceives punishment to be vengeance, then instead of it helping the child to learn to change, the child will learn to be angry and resentful. Counterproductive. Or, to put it simply - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. A child will respond best to positive motivation. But not all the positive motivation in the world, will help a deaf child pick up a tune that you sing to him. difficult child 1's first pediatricia explained it this way: "I can sit difficult child 1 down and say, 'If you sit still for five minutes, I will give you $50.' But he won't be able to do it. He will be highly motivated to win that money, but not all the motivation in the world will help him achieve it." In order to learn, a child needs to know what is expected. He needs to be capable of doing what is expected. And once he achieves it (if he achieves it) then a reward (such as praise) will help reinforce that success, thereby increasing the chance of success next time. If there is a break in the link of the discipline chain anywhere along it, then discipline will be ineffective. So instead of wasting your energy trying to up the ante with discipline, your energty is best expended trying to fix the breaks in the links, or perhaps find another chain that isn't broken. I could be trying to parent a six month old baby, and decide, "I don't want to wait for tis baby to walk at 13 months of age. I want the baby to walk now, it would be far more convenient for me." So I decide to punish the baby for not walking. I could smack the baby whenever he is found not walking. Or I could give him a stern talking to, "I need you to get up and walk! Stop lying around being lazy!" The talking to - will the baby even understand my words? The spanking - will it speed up the baby's walking? After all, if I keep it up for another 7 months, I will get what I want - a walking baby. See? It worked, eventually. A lot of what people try to do in terms of disciplining difficult children, is about as ludicrous as this. Feel free to use these analogies to get through to the school. Marg [/QUOTE]
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