How involved should I get?

[Kathy813]

I met difficult child for her weekly groceries, cigarettes, and gas and she asked me for a check for her psychiatrist visit tomorrow. I asked her how much and she said she needed to pay for the visit and three prescriptions. Then mental health clinic that she goes to charges on a sliding scale so difficult child pays $5 for the psychiatrist visit and $5 per prescription. I asked her what the prescriptions were for and she said, "Celexa, Klonopin, and a new bipolar medication." I asked her how she knew she would get the new bipolar medication and she said that the old psychiatrist (when she had private insurance) had diagnosed her as bipolar (this was news to me) but said to wait until she saw this psychiatrist to go on the medication so she could be monitored.

The phospital released her with a diagnosis of mood disorder not otherwise specified and something about alcohol abuse. I can't remember the exact DSM name right now. They also released her with the medications noted as Celexa and Klonopin.

I asked difficult child if she was supposed to take Klonopin and she said that the sober house director told her that he would have to hold on to it and give it to her each day and that she was fine with that. She again said that there were different schools of thought on whether addicts can take Klonopin under controlled circumstances.

I told her that I would give her a check for the doctor visit and wait to see what he prescribed and take it from there. My question is how involved I should get. How could we be sure she wouldn't get the Klonopin and take too many or sell some between the doctor's office and the sober house. That was very typical of her in the past.

Also, should I call the director of the halfway house and confirm that he said it was okay but that he would keep the Klonopin in his possession? Should I tell him to count the pills when she gets there?

I am confused because I feel like this is difficult child's recovery and she needs to take responsibility for using medications correctly but on the other hand I don't want to be used or pay for something that she will abuse.

She was actually very agreeable about waiting to see what the psychiatrist said. What do y'all think?

Kathy

 

[klmno]

Just MHO, you can't control whether or not she finds a way to abuse or sell or not take rx'd medications. Remember- the serenity prayer applies to you, too. BUT- you can control not giving her cash. I wouldn't make the check out to her. You can find a way to pay for the dr without making a check out to her.

When the issue becomes that you'd help her if you KNEW for sure, then the issue is that you don't trust her- right or wrong. No amount of watching, checking on, etc, will really 'fix' that.

Some people get to a point of almost stalking their grown kids- I'd recommend not doing that.

 

[toughlovin]

I basically agree with kimno..... you can't control her recovery in any way, it does have to be hers. However I have mixed feelings about talking to the sober house. I think with our recent experience with my difficult child I think if you felt comfortable I would call the sober house and ask them about the klonapin. I would do it in a way where you are just asking information..... my sense is that klonapin is not a good drug for addicts as it is addictive, although I am no expert. I know my son has been prescribed seroquel to help with his anxiety and it does seem to help and it is not addictive.

I like the sober house my son is currently at... I talked to the director as he was going in (naturally because we are paying for it) but he gave me his cell and commented that we have to work toether and communication is key... so I do think with people newly in sobriety, they need a lot of support to deal with the temptations.... yet at the same time as parents we need to balance that so we are not in the middle and trying to control their recovery. Not an easy task.

TL

 

[klmno]

That's reasonable- but tell your daughter first- that if she needs you to pay for her appointment and medications, you will need her permission to talk to sober house and dr. Hey- appropriate boundaries need to be established from both sides, but on the other hand, if she is still financially dependent upon you, you have a right to know your money isn't going to enable her.

 

[Fran]

Kathy, I think a lot of medications are confusing with trials, starts and stops. The best of young adults can be confused or not take as expected. I think you having a clear understanding of what she should take is a good idea. Just for a safety back up.
I keep a list of difficult child's medications, easy child's medications, husband's medications and my own. It's just prudent.

 

[DammitJanet]

Lord have mercy. I want to know what doctor is prescribing a person who has labeled THEMSELVES as an addict klonopin?

When I lost insurance and had to go to county mental health because it was the only place with a sliding scale, the psychiatrist there flat refused to continue my rx of klonopin even though I had my medical records available from my then former (now current) psychiatrist who promised to tell idiot county psychiatrist that I was absolutely not a drug addict. I told the man he could pee test me or whatever else he wanted to do but I needed to be on the same medications that I had been on when I left my former psychiatrist...NO GO!

I was given vistaril.

 

[Kathy813]

Janet, difficult child has been prescribed Visaril before and she said it didn't work for her.

I don't know if the psychiatrist will even give her Klonopin. I am hoping that he refuses given her history. The problem is that she does need medications for her mental health issues but that is complicated by her addiction issues.

klmno, believe me . . . I am not stalking difficult child. In fact, I hadn't even talked with her since last Sunday. As far as I am concerned, my week is much more peaceful with little to no difficult child interaction. It is just that I do not want to be naive and get used by difficult child to get drugs she shouldn't have.

I can talk with the director of the sober house since we are paying for her rent. I just don't want to get too involved if that makes sense.

I just talked with her and she said that the psychiatrist is part of the mental health clinic/rehab and knows about her stay in rehab and that he might not even prescribe Klonopin. This is the same psychiatrist, though, that went ahead and prescribed Ambien, Adderall, Xanax, and Celexa after husband called and told the nurse at the clinic that difficult child was abusing and selling the Ambien, Adderall, and Xanax. This was before her stay in rehab.

So I guess we will see what happens tomorrow.

 

[klmno]

I realize you aren't stalking your difficult child, Kathy- really, I was referring to other stories I've heard.

Given your last details about this psychiatrist- I'd push for another one. And I do think that if your daughter needs your financial help on something like this, you have a right to find out some details- with her knowledge and permission. If she doesn't want to give you that permission for this part (not private conversations with a therapist), then that says something about where her head is.

 

[Kathy813]

Another psychiatrist is really not an option. difficult child doesn't have insurance and gets her mental health care at a clinic for low income people. This psychiatrist volunteers his time at the clinic.

He also has a private practice but I don't know much about him. Unfortunately, he's all we got. She's been seeing him on and off for years.

 

[klmno]

Hmmm....without knowing his reputation or hx, all I could recommend then is that you talk to your daughter about how even if a psychiatrist would hand her a rx for her drug of choice, she has to take responsibility for not taking it. The sober house reps, if worth their salt at all, should be talking to residents about this, too.

 

[Nancy]

Tough question. You certainly don't want to be put in the position where you are enabling her drug use. If it were me I would want to talk to someone who could assure me that what she is being prescribed is ok for an addict to take. When difficult child came out of rehab we had a hard time finding a psychiatrist that was comfortable working with an alcoholic and had the experience and knowledge of what drugs were safe.

You are paying the bills for her stay and have every right to know what the moeny is going for and if the drugs are safe. It's not good enough to trust the doctor. I would have no problem calling the sober house and asking the director for advice. The first sober house difficult child was in had very strict rules on what can be taken and how it should be administered.

Nancy

 

[Hound dog]

Personally, although it may be a royal PITA, I wouldn't hand her cash for any reason. If you're footing the doctor bills, I'd paid them personally, as in she wouldn't even see it. If your paying for scripts, I'd pay the pharmacy directly, then hand it to her. Same for any supplies your buying. No cash for any reason period.

Now I'm going to come off cold but thanks to bff and her group of addict friends.........there are a lot of mental health medications addicts use to get high on. And they must get the list of characteristics ect straight off line because psychiatrists seem to fall for it unless you get one wise enough to think twice or four times over scripting an addict with anything they could even remotely use or trade to get high on. This is where addicts with mental health issues shoot themselves in the foot.

If she starts saying things like......oh I had so much anxiety I just ran out early........or other sort of lame or questionable excuses as to why her medications can't last her until the next doctor visit, it's time to stop paying for either the psychiatrist or the medications. She's selling them or using them as an addict would, not as treatment. (but you probably already know that)

As far as I'm concerned difficult child better be thanking her lucky stars she has such an awesome Mom that will do these things for her. I'd have told her it was her problem and used the serenity prayer.

((hugs))

 

[DammitJanet]

I know its not going to work near as well. It didnt for me either which is why I pitched such a fit. Another issue is though, she is only 26, she cant stay on it forever. I am twice her age and I have no idea if they will let me. Though I dont know if they worry about me lasting a long time either.

 

[Kathy813]

Don't worry . . . we don't give difficult child cash for anything. I write the check directly to the mental health clinic and meet her at the pharmacy to buy the medications. We also have been meeting her to buy her food, cigarettes, and gasoline. The sober house check is written directly to the sober house.

The thing stopping me from just saying no to the Klonopin is that she was even allowed to take it when she was in rehab. The nurse handed out the Klonopin and Celexa to her.

However, she has not had the Klonopin for over a month now and seems to be doing okay so I really am not sure that she needs it. She does have severe anxiety issues, though. Looking back, I can see that she has been dealing with it since she was a pre-schooler. When difficult child was five years old, she threw up every week at the start of her Sunday school class. I couldn't understand it at the time but now I think it was anxiety then, too.

She goes to the doctor today at 2:15pm. I'll update later.

 

[DDD]

Hoping for the best outcome. Hugs. DDD

 

[Kathy813]

I talked with difficult child after her psychiatrist visit. He refused to give her the Klonopin saying that it is not usually prescribed to people in halfway houses. Instead, he prescribed Celexa, Trazadone, and a new drug for her mood disorder which difficult child could not remember the name of. She said that she had never heard of it before.

According to difficult child, this doctor echoed what was said in rehab and at the halfway house . . . that difficult child was not really an addict but uses alcohol and drugs to self medicate and the substance abuse is triggered by emotional upsets. I think that there is some truth to that because she would live with us for extended periods of time and do great and then suddenly go off the deep end. I pointed out to her, though, that the substance abuse magnifies her mental health issues and staying away from alcohol and pills will help whether it is a true addiction or not. She agreed with me.

I am concerned about the Trazedone. It seems like it could be used by taking it in excess since it is an anti-depressant that is used to help people sleep. difficult child has used it before. I have to check Nancy's list to see what it says about Trazadone. difficult child said she had left the prescriptions at the mental health clinic since it was cheaper to get the medicine filled there ($5.00 a scrip) and she doesn't need anything immediately as she still has Celexa left.

So I guess it was good news and bad news. I don't know what to think about her statements about whether she is an "addict" or not. Either way, she was drinking and taking prescription drugs at the same time which can be deadly. It also bothered me when I suggested that she let the director hold her Trazedone and she basically accused him of stealing someone else's medications that he was holding. It sounded like an excuse the old difficult child would use to keep control of her drugs.

I guess I have some thinking to do.

 

[Nancy]

Sounds like an experienced dr Kathy. I'm glad he didn't give her klonopin. As for trazedone, the rehab center difficult child was in did prescribe that to many clients, including difficult child, who had trouble sleeping. difficult child had problems with it though, she felt groggy and depressed so she stopped it and felt better.

I don't know what to think about the addiction statement either, I'm still thinking on that.

Nancy

 

[toughlovin]

I am also glad he did not prescribe the klonopin... because I think for someone with drug problems I think it is dangerous and addictive. My son has been on trazadone for sleep and is now on seroquel for anxiety which I also thinks helps with sleep. So I suspect the trazadone is ok.

Interesting what he said about her not being an addict. I have heard similar things said about my son and I think by some definition my son does not see himself as an addict. And it is true he has not been physically addicted to anything yet. Even though he went to detox this last time I think that was due to his not knowing where else to go and it was where everyone starts in the tx center which he knew. When he got to the sober house, his urine test was clean..... but I digress.

So I guess it depends on how you define drug addict. I guess you might a doctor might define it as phsycial addiction. However it seems to me that someone that uses drugs or alcohol to deal with their problems are only a step away from serious physical addiction to serious scary drugs. And no matter what any doctor or what my son says he behaves like an addict... if he is stealing to get drugs, even if it is "only" spice then he is behaving like a drug addict. Fact is I know that when my son is looking to numb his pain with substances he will try anythng and has. I doubt there is a heroin addict out there that started with heroin.... no it starts with cigarettes, then pot, then something else always seeking a better high, a better way to numb the pain.

So I think all three of our kids are addicts.... just maybe at different stages of addiction.

TL

 

[Kathy813]

difficult child also told me about a new suitemate that was my age and had started drinking after the death of her 28-year-old three years ago. She said that the woman had gone all out decorating their suite for the hoidays and it really cheered difficult child up.

I was confused at first and asked if this was her roommate. She said no, her roommate was the one that stole her Ipod. She had told me on the phone last week that someone had stolen her Ipod and that it made her realize how much it hurt to have someone steal something from you.

So when she mentioned the theft again today, I asked her if she had confronted the girl. She said yes but the girl just lied about it. Then she said, "You know mom, I really understand now how much it hurts when someone steals from you and then lies about it. I'm really getting it." I just told her that I was glad.

~Kathy

 

[Nancy]

Kathy it's amazing what they fianlly realize about their own behavior when they are sober. When difficult child was using she would steal anything she could. Then when she went to the sober house and was clean she also had her ipod stolen and told me all addicts steal and now she knew what it felt like to have it happen to her. She often tells me things that show she is having insight into her old behavior. I hope it continues with your difficult child because it is that insight that will help her stay sober. She is thinking clearer now and can see how her own actions affected people.

I am proud of you, you are being supportive and yet cautious. I always take what my difficult child says with a grain of salt, never knowing if she is saying it to be manipulative or if she really believes it. I want to hope she really means it.

Nancy