husband's BIG secret.... and do I have enough proof?

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by keista, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. keista

    keista New Member

    First, I am PETRIFIED even more due to the ludicrous court ruling that was brought to my attention.

    Second, if you respond to my post please refrain from using the *I* word. My paranoia and secrecy is for my children's benefit. I do NOT want them finding this stuff out before they come of age. Bad enough that it looks like I WILL have to bring this out in court for the divorce, making it public record, making anyone able to dig up the info. I don't think the kids will find it on their own - I'm thinking more like a Texas Cheerleader scenario where someone wants to "get" to my kids.

    So, I've mentioned that husband left because he refused to stop doing something really, really, really bad. I'd send the kids to visit him, but he continues to do that something really, really, really bad in his home. I think I've mentioned that there is NO 'made for TV movie' (ie no real life stories to research - I tried) for this situation. That does not make this situation more horrific than any other, but certainly makes me feel more isolated because I have absolutely no frame of reference on how to deal or respond or move forward while protecting my kids.

    Here goes:

    husband is stuppin' his sister. Yup, you read it right. They were caught together on my couch, just down the hall from the kids' bedrooms, by their mother, during the sister's first visit to my home. I didn't get the lowdown on the showdown until a few months later when big mouths, and adult difficult child egos and tempers made it all blow up on a message board. (too long and complex a story to get into).

    They are currently living together in another state. I can only assume that they are masquerading as husband and wife, because, why wouldn't they? They have the same last name, have a romantic relationship, so why let anyone know they are actually siblings?

    Problem is I don't have any CURRENT proof of their relationship. If we go to trial (which looks like we might) I can depose his employer and coworkers. This would be a real PITA, but can probably have it done and have them appear as witnesses via phone. HOWEVER I don't want them to fire him over this. No job=minimal support order and no HOPE of ever getting a support payment.

    What I have:
    Old Instant message transcripts between the two of them having some racy conversations.
    Old Instant message transcripts between her and her friend with her declaring her eternal love for him with innuendo of a threesome.
    Her signature on all the return receipts I requested when sending dv papers.
    His paystub deduction is listed as married filing joint

    I'm still waiting for him to send me his bank records and Credit Card records (required under disclosure). I'm pretty sure he hasn't sent them yet because she's on them with him. As it is, he did not send copies of his tax returns - only IRS transcripts. Them having joint accounts isn't proof of anything (I've known other siblings to do this) but it just adds 'more'.

    I might be able to contact her last boyfriend and have him write an affidavit. She told him all about her plans to run away with husband. But that's old news too.

    I haven't talked to mother in law since she moved out - over a year ago - and considering her health has probably only deteriorated, she won't be of any help. Besides, what she witness is also several years old.

    So yeah, I'm concerned I'll get a STOOOOOOPID judge. I had a hearing 4 weeks ago in front of a General Magistrate, and he was good. husband tried protesting me taking the kids out of state for vacation claiming he hasn't seen them AT ALL for 4 years (not true), and the GM came down on him citing the fact that he has done NOTHING to legally try to see the kids for 4 years (true). BUT I will probably have to bring up this issue to show cause for my desire of sole custody and show why I have only allowed limited contact. I have always said that he can see the kids ANY time he wants but SHE CAN NOT. I do have messages between us discussing that but he never admits to the situation in them.

    The "pros" all agree that it's not an acceptable situation for the kids, but don't have any idea in how to guide me in dealing with the kids with this (very rare unusual situation), so we just don't deal with it and keep it a secret.

    So, how much more do I need. I don't think I can afford a PI. I would have maxed my credit cards for it, but I just maxed them out for the transmission on my car. UHG.

    Again, please refrain from using the *I* word in any responses.
  2. gcvmom

    gcvmom Here we go again!

    Have you consulted with a lawyer? Or even a phone call to a social welfare agency -- perhaps one dealing with family issues -- maybe someone there can offer some advice? I wish I had a clear answer for you, but if in your shoes, I would be equally concerned about the situation and the future ramifications.
  3. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    The paystub deduction in and of itself is meaningless, it's merely the withholding rate he asked for. Now if his actual returns list that with her as the spouse, that's a different duck. Too bad you don't know someone in stores they frequent that could slide you some of their video surveillance tapes.
  4. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Personally? I wouldn't make a move without consulting a lawyer. And while your research is coming up with nulls, I assure you this is NOT unheard of. Attempt, if you can, to find a lawyer who is someone knowledgeable in this least as far as the law is concerned. Because while it is NOT a suitable situation for your kids to be subjected to, actually I'm not sure it would be grounds for keeping them from him. While that sounds ludicrous, nothing is being done to the children per se. So, while common sense says of course this would affect a child's mental health.....a judge might say it's for the law to handle with husband and his sister, not a matter for custody. Insane I know, but the link you provided proves that stranger things have happened. Usually to either gain supervised or no visitation or have to prove something has been done to the kids or there is a neglectful situation going on.

    So, get as much info as humanly possible from a darn good lawyer, then follow his/her advice.

  5. Mattsmom277

    Mattsmom277 Active Member

    I don't understand custody laws in the US so have no advice on that but wanted to say I'm so sorry for all of this and I hope you can find a way to get this settled in a way good for the kids. What a horrid situation to face and I hope maybe a lawyer might have advice that is helpful to answer some of your concerns.

    Given I do not understand the ins and outs of US laws, I can only say what might/could happen here in Canada. In a situation like that he would have to prove she isn't living with him and even if she is, in spite of any proof to current status of the relationship, even the previous history would be enough to offer court protection on contact terms if they live together. Even if they do not live together, here the previous proof of the past conduct would be enough to order terms like you mentioned (her not having contact during his visits). Actually here it could probably be deemed supervised contact even for him just to ensure none of this gets to kids but via you (eventually) and in a manner of your choosing (with therapists etc).

    Just want to offer hugs, support, bead rattling for a solution and a way for you to move past this with your kids. I can't imagine. (((hugs)))
  6. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    When I got divorced my son was 15. His father had left us to go live with a girlfriend who was quite possibly the trashiest woman on the face of the earth. My son hated her and didn't want to visit anyway but he did go over there may be once a month or so. They were trying to talk my son into spending the night at their house and going on overnight trips - of course he didn't want to go. Any kind of overnight visits would have made my son very uncomfortable ... with his father sleeping with the girlfriend right down the hall! So I had it put in the divorce agreement that our son was NOT to spend the night with his father at any time that his father was "playing hosue" with a woman that he was not married to. They didn't even question it - it went right through, and apparently that's fairly common. So if you could get similar wording put in your divorce decree and since there's very little chance that those two would ever be legally married, that might work.

    Something else you may be able to check on - does he have medical insurance through his employer? If he does and if he has her listed on his policy as a spouse ...
  7. keista

    keista New Member

    I've consulted with two lawyers. One immediately after husband left. That one indicated he would 'threaten' husband with revealing the information in court and felt that would be sufficient to get him to back down. The more recent one I picked because he was a child psychologist in a previous life and an active guardian ad litem. Well, he wanted to know how I thought the kids would react if I TOLD THEM. Ah, NOT AN OPTION. So I'll still consult with him if I need advice for procedures, witnesses, etc, but money is a really big issue right now (stupid transmission)

    gvcmom, I've considered calling CPS, but that means telling the story to yet another person that may or not be able to help. I will revisit the thought if/when I'm convinced I MUST reveal this information in court.

    Haozi, He's currently filling as Head of Household with 2 dependents. Unfortunately, since it's a transcript, it doesn't show who the dependents are. I know she's one, but who on earth is the other one? Hmmmmmmm gonna have to investigate that one. I've considered going up myself to "spy" and try and catch some pics, but with DD1 having been unstable, even a weekend getaway is out of the question. Anyone else I can ask to go, either has kids and can't go, or I can't trust enough to let them know what info I need.

    Hound Dog, you summed up my concerns. Again I am not trying to keep HIM from the kids. I have several documented conversations of me stating this and if he didn't like my 1 stipulation, he was free to take me to court. I'm hoping my first impression of the GM holds up and he won't look too kindly on that and "see" the reason I'm stating is the reason husband did not pursue court action. BUT this is FL - Land of crazy judgements.

    mattsmom, you stated logical reasoning, and in US courts, that is the same way things "should" go, but time and time again we see that it doesn't. That is what has me so concerned. Fortunately, he doesn't want the kids to know either. Her, I'm not so sure. I'm actually concerned that she would try 'indoctrinating' son into the family 'games' (by the way she is the older sibling by 3 years)

    donna, they call it a morality clause, and I've looked into it. The big problem is proving the "playing house". It is often written as a non-relative staying over, but that doesn't work in this situation. LMAO because otherwise I cry. Oh, and no insurance.

    I am still hoping I won't have to reveal this in court, but will do whatever I have to to protect my kids. They were born with issues, and now have to deal with divorce, and these 'grown up details' would be just too much.

    WOW! As draining and anxiety provoking as it is, it feels good to let it out. If it were just me, I would have called the cops (or local DA) on them years ago. Yeah, it's illegal even when both are consenting adults. I'm not big at keeping secrets - I'm pretty much an open book, but again, do what I must to protect my kids. The secret keeping, as much as the whole situation, stresses me to no end.

    Thanks for the responses and support.
  8. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I'm not certain what you're asking. Are you asking whether you should send the kids to visit? If so, no. I'd just not send the kids and make it clear that if he ever asks to see them you'll shout from the mountain tops what he's doing and if that's what he wants the world to know, that is what you're going to tell the world. After all, it is what HE is doing. Even if you have to do that I wouldn't tell the kids. They don't need to know.

    As far as his bank stuff goes, I'd hire an investigator or get one of those online things to look up all of his credit by way of his social security number. The man is never going to tell you the truth about anything you need to know.
  9. keista

    keista New Member

    Sorry, I guess I didn't state my question very clearly.

    In terms of custody/visitation, how MUCH proof will I need to show that 1. this relationship exists, and 2. it's NOT a good environment for the kids.

    The 2nd part is actually easy IF I have enough for the first part.

    Witzend, I haven't sent the kids for any visits. He has had 4 short visits with the kids WITHOUT her. Two he initiated, and two I initiated. SHE is NOT to be anywhere near the kids. The few times he complained saying she has a 'right' as a relative, I told him to take me to court - of course, he never did. She was hoping that once she took him away, she'd also get access to the kids and have 'instant family' More deluded thinking from that side of the family.
  10. seriously

    seriously New Member

    Now the tax angle is actually the one that struck me as a big question mark that could bite either or both of you in the b*** and that you need to tend to sooner rather than later. Forgive me if you have already thought about this stuff and didn't mention it.

    Do either of you now live in a community property state (probably not there are only 7)? If so, then your life just got a whole lot more complicated. But I'm going to assume not.

    Did he file tax returns as married joint with 2 dependents after he moved out? Did he consult you about this return? Get your agreement?

    If not, then he has a big legal problem with the IRS and probably whatever State he filed a state tax return for as well because he falsified the return if he filed it as if you had knowledge of and approved of the return.

    Unfortunately, this could be a problem for you too if those returns get questioned now or in the future unless you notify the IRS that you want to claim innocent spouse relief.

    Notifying the IRS about this is very likely to trigger an audit of his returns for the last 3 tax years.

    If you are unsure what your filing status should have been for the tax year in question you can use the interactive IRS tool at this link to help you figure out if you/he should or should not have filed married joint/separate/single for that tax year.

    And of course the issue of dependents - if he claimed either or both of your children then you will need to figure out who had the legal right to claim them for that tax year. And he may not have qualified for Head of household status depending on whether he had the legal right to claim them since an able-bodied adult dependent will not qualify you for HoH.

    Did you file a return that year? What filing status did you use? Did you claim the kids?

    Obviously, you probably should not discuss the details of this on the forum, I'm just pointing out things that you may not have thought about yet but that could be important, both for dealing with the IRS and for your current situation with the divorce/custody. You're welcome to PM me about it but my knowledge is based on reading IRS publications as they apply to my own somewhat irregular marital situation and dependents, etc.

    He could NOT legally claim married joint for living with *her* as there is no state in the US that would consider their union legal. Plus there's the obvious fact that he is still married to you that would pose a little problem. But he might be able to file HoH - but if he claimed one or both of your kids when they weren't living with him and you had not written agreement then he probably didn't qualify for HoH - but you might not have either. It could be really complicated.

    Now, I would think that most judges would look pretty unfavorably on a guy who falsified his tax returns - at your and your kids expense. It certainly speaks to his character and the extent to which he can be trusted to act in his children's best interests.

    And if he filed married joint and listed HER as his wife...well there's some pretty solid proof of something and you didn't even have to bring it up directly although you can certainly bring your suspicions to the judge's attention and blame the tax return as the reason you are bringing the matter to judge's attention since it appears to confirm what other extended family members have told you.

    It is really tough but, as others have said, not unheard of - more like it's not talked about by any of the parties involved.

    Many hugs. Hope it goes well and sorry about that darn transmission.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  11. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    Did you tell the most recent attorney of your fear that she will try to "indoctrinate" your son? I don't know how much proof you would need, but that one thing makes it sound (to me) like an unhealthy environment.
  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Im thinking you might be able to get a copy of a tax return or two on your own if he listed your kids on that return or since you are married, the do concern you. also google earth is a wonderful thing. Print pics of all the times her car is there. If you can find his myspace or facebook page, go on it and start printing. Even if you have to find a way to get him to friend you as someone else. Make up a name from someone you think he would friend. capture a picture off the internet. Hell find an old school buddy and pretend to be them and go from there. Or maybe not school...they might remember his sisters name.
  13. confuzzled

    confuzzled Member

    you can "withhold" anything you want from a paycheck...(but its usually done the opposite way, like single/0 dependants to get a bigger refund check in the end)

    you can't file a tax return with fradulent dependants/marital status.

    sorry you are all going through this-no advice here other than i think i'd scrounge up the $$$ for a PI to get solid proof, after doing another free consult with an attorney to see if whatever you have is enough evidence or what, specifically, would hold up in court.
  14. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    OK, I'm going to hit you with a bit of diverging opinion here.

    First off. EWWWW. Yes, it is an inappropriate environment for the kids. No argument there. BUT---

    Do not do not do not whatever you do DO NOT go spy yourself. This can be labeled stalking. And the odds are you will see nothing you can use. Add to the fact that anything you DO see, will be labeled as inadmissible due to the person - YOU! If your lawyer says to, you can hire a professional.

    As they are both adults, there probably is no crime being committed, except it's disgusting and offensive to "normal" people. Not sure what your state's laws say... (Sounds like she took "Flowers in the Attic" and so on, a bit seriously.)

    Keep looking for a good custody lawyer. The fact that he moved away is going to be WAY more influential - effective abandonment of the kids. How long ago? If over a year, it's a slam dunk - especially with four whole visits.

    in my opinion, you are right to try to protect the kids from this - and honestly, if you can swing it in any way, not bringing it up at all is the best way to do that. Because the minute you do, it's in court documents, and therefore most likely public record. The media loves stuff like this.

    As for Google Earth - I can tell you for a fact that the pictures are NOT current. The one of my house shows father in law's motor home in front of the house. He stayed with us for a few months and left in APRIL 2006. Since they are not current, you could check it 100 times, see her car all 100, and it prove nothing.

    If he is claiming the kids as dependents... That's tax fraud. Does he pay support???
  15. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    No advice, I think everyone covered it well. Just sending hugs and support.
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Ok...I think I meant the street view portion. Mine actually updates pretty frequently on that and I live in the boondocks. In fact, they have been paving my road recently and it has already shown the paving equipment on the road in various sections.
  17. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Hmmmmmmm, about the street view. You must be popular. Ours is the same there too... Though they did almost run over husband the other day.
  18. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    No advice. Just hugs. What a terrible postiion to be in..I'm sorry. DDD
  19. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Sent you a PM and never once used that letter you didn't want used.
  20. keista

    keista New Member

    Seriously, thanks for the tax support. That part I do have 100% covered (I've worked as a tax preparer) he filed as he should for the first 2 years - Married filing separate. I 'gave' him the kids as dependents the first year, because it was an even split time wise, and it didn't help or hurt my return because my income was so low. The past two years he's been filing as head of household, which he is entitled to do if he is supporting a family member who makes below a certain threshold (sister obviously isn't working) I do have to find out who his second dependent is because it MUST be a close family member. If he's claiming his mother, then I will report him. My CPA friend said that if we both tried claiming the kids, the IRS would be all over it, so I don't think that is happening.

    Google earth is always about 6 months behind for me. Would be so nice if it have a live video feed, but that's getting really "Big Brothery"

    Step, Thanks. I never thought of the ramifications of ME going up to get pics. I'll get those thoughts right out of my head. Yes, I'm working my butt off right now to catch up from that stupid transmission, and maybe be able to get ahead for some PI money.
    Think again. It is illegal in all 50 states - Felony.

    There is a 'new' phenomena (medical condition) called GSA (Genetic Sexual Attraction) which occurs when family members (not just siblings but parents too) are separated at VERY young ages or earlier due to adoption or even IVF, and then they reunite as adults and fall MADLY in love, often NOT knowing (at first at least) that they are indeed direct blood relations. Such situations, if found out, are deemed illegal as well. husband doesn't qualify for that since they started their antics as 'kids' and were raised raised together, although not consistently (yeah, their childhood was a NIGHTMARE)
    That's what I'm hoping to pull off, but have to be prepared for 'worst case scenarios'. Fortunately, divorce record details are not searchable online here. Someone has to want to find the info or know what they are looking for and go down to the clerk's office and request it.

    As far as his abandonment goes, it's been 4 years. Yes, it would be a slam dunk but he's *indicating* that HE wants full custody. He won't get it, but the courts have moved moved towards "shared parental responsibility" They don't even use the term visitation any more. Now it's called "time-sharing" That coupled with crazy court rulings, is what gets me concerned.

    The good news is that he was told that he should file an official counter-petition, but he has not done that yet. I can still hope that he won't and then things will go much more smoothly.