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susiestar

Roll With It
I haven't read all of this. I fully understand how you felt rejected by him when he was an infant, and how scared you were adn are, and how hard this is. I think the people that blamed this on your poor parenting should have to take hm home for a week or three. Though probably he could honeymoon for an extended period, so maybe three or four mos to get past that. Honeymooning is our term for when a child goes to the hospital or a placement and is perfectly behaved for them for the first however long period of time. My son still holds the record for honeymooning at the psychiatric hospital he was in at age 12 (he is almost 20!) - six weeks. He would have gone longer but they wanted to send him home and I went into the hardest/worst therapy session of my life. I sat and pushed EVERY button he had and he just exploded all over the place - really let htem see what we dealt with at home and how much he hated his sister and watned to kill her.

WHile my difficult child's beginning was different, there are similarities. If it helps, my son was so violent that at age 14 I had to have the police remove him from our home for good. He ended up with my folks because the judge and deputy stalled long enough because they didn't want to deal with it. So my dad had just retired from being a jr high teacher of kids on the lower end (never had the good or gifted kids) and he and my mom asked to have a chance with Wiz. Took hard work from ALL of us, and a LOT of time, but the child that I was srue was going to murder one of us (from age 5 or 6 to age 14 when he wasn't allowed here anymore) is now an awesome big brother with great relationships with all of us. So there is hope, and it can be different.

I know almost how hard it is for you. I am married to the father of my kids, so i only know ALMOST, and I fully see how hard this is. We spent YEARS with-o being able to use the bathroom alone. I took our daughter and husband took Wiz b/x even in the short period of time it took to use the bathroom our daughter would end up bruised and bloody. There were days I could not WAIT until husband got home so that I could have 60 seconds alone!

The cat has to go. Maybe your son could visit, but if your difficult child kills that cat, your older one is going to unleash a lot of rage on him and someone will get seriously hurt. It isn't fair to set your oldest son up for that. Could a relative take the cat?

SOOOOOOOO much of what you say about your son indicates to me that something is really wrong. I don't think a newborn was really angry, I think hurt or upset might be a different approach. If he is angry, then it is as though he is choosing to be angry. But if everything in his world is painful or overstimulating, then you have something different going on. My youngest was a strange newborn. Not only did he creak lke an old rocking chair when alone in his bed, when I could get him to lay down alone in it - he wanted to nurse 24/7 and screamed wehn he couldn't. It sounded angry, but if I had seen it as being angry then it would have put a wall between us. I saw it as him hurting, and that let me get and be closer.

Does your son have dark circles around his eyes, like he hasn't slept in a long time? Even if he doesn't, have you ever considered the gluten free casein free diet? You might all have to change to it in order to keep him from sneaking, at least during the trial of it. Way back when I first homeschooled Wiz in 3rd grade, there was a boy in the homeschool group who sounds a lot lke your son. He seemed angry, hurt kids, was charming on the surface but no kid would be alone with him because he would hurt them - on purpose. His mom was terrified, of course. Another mom suggested food allergies and since they had trialed every thing else - medications therapies intervention inpatient treatment you name it, mom figured it could not hurt. Now they had done allergy testing, but for food it just is not reliable. Plus it doesn't show intolerances, which don't SOUND as bad as allergies but can be as bad or worse. Intolerances just don't involve a histamine reaction - the body freaks out in other ways.

I would look into the girlfriend/cf diet and try it for 6-8 weeks. It means cutting out ALL dairy - casein is a protein derived from milk and it can cause a LOT of different problems, and all grains with gluten. There is a LOT of info about this out on the net, and many here have seen HUGE improvements in their kids and in their own bodies.

I would also look into sensory integration disorder. My bro was a head banger - my mother tried to pad the end of his crib and he ripped out the padding before he was a yr old, or so I am told. He also did a very strange rocking/moaning thing at night after he went to sleep. One of my older cousins believed for years that he was possessed because it. I myself have a LOT of sensory issues, as do my kids, and there were a LOT of times wehn people thought I was just an angry *itch when really I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't be knd or polite. I managed to work through some of it on my own, though I always called myself a "texture" person - the right textures calm me like nothing else and teh wrong texture? OMG it is so awful I can't focus on anything else. I was born that way and it made a lot of things difficult.

Get a private Occupational Therapist (OT) to evaluate your son for sensory issues. See what happens. Try the girlfriend/cf diet. there are a LOT more products out there now than there were years ago, and many are actually GOOD. I had to hide the tofuttie cuties ice cream sandwiches or the kids would eat a whole box - and so did Gma one night! The tofutti cream chease really IS better than reg cream cheese except that it doesn't really melt for cooking.

Do what you can to create special times for the other boys. It has to be really hard. I know you love your boys, but if it is really bad, could your middle son go live with his dad? Maybe as an only child he would be better able to cope? I am NOT NOT NOT saying you are a bad mom. You are an AMAZING mom just because you haven't throttled him yet, in my opinion. Some of our kids just do better as only kids.

If it gets to the point where it is unsafe to have him at home with the other kids, where you truly feel you cannot keep him safe, consider sending him to his dad or to what is called therapeutic foster care or to an inpatient psychiatric hospital or residential treatment center. Safety MUST be the top priority, and you have an equal duty to the other boys that you have to him. Sometimes we have to be a family of different addresses. Doesn't mean we love them less, means we love them enough to get them into a setting where they can thrive, Know what I mean??
 

keista

New Member
Regarding medicines. I can tell you that the first psychiatrist DD1 sow said there was prozac. Well that seemed to make her worse, is there anything else we can try? Nope. Just prozac. I found another Dr immediately. She's been on 4 other medications since. Insurance had no problem paying for any of them. Well, except for the Abilify, but I'm pretty sure that's because there is no generic form of it and very expensive. However, her new insurance pays for pretty much whatever a Dr prescribes.

Anyway, see a psychiatrist ASAP. A pediatrician can only prescribe within their knowledge range (as they should), and most have very limited experience with mental health and serious behavioral issues.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I read all the responses and I know my diet suggestions seem sort of like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound. I don't mean that it will fix everything. Not at all. But esp with the digestion issues, if that is the problem it might not have shown up on allergy testing. Seems allergy testing is very much not reliable for food issues - this is straight from a top allergy doctor here. Our doctor doesn't even test for most of them, and he says that eliminating them from teh diet totally for six weeks, then adding ONE serving of the food daily for a week to see if behavior changes is the only way to know if the body tolerates them or not. It seems that many kids with problems benefit greatly from teh girlfriend/cf diet. It isn't a cure-all, but it can make things a lot better. Some of our members see HUGE changes in their kids when they try the girlfriend/cf diet. It is kind of a PITA, because you have to lock up or throw away all foods with wheat or casein (milk protein). Usually the entire family has to do it when the person needing it is a child. Otherwise they just sneak and youwon't really know if the diet helps.

I know you tested for a lot of things, but from personal experience, have you actually gotten copies of the tests, not just the reports the docs wrote about them? I insist on the actual lab results, etc.... AND the reports because docs tend to miss things. Not on purpose, but they are looking for certain things and don't pay attention to other things. I learned that I have a vit D deficiency that started in my teens and no one bothered to mention it until I was in my 30's. My body hates the stuff and I am really paying for it with severe bone issues. I found the problem when I got my hands on old lab results that my mother had misfiled. Then I pushed and got files from other docs that I had seen, and I sound that at least five docs had lab results showing severe deficiency and not one of them picked up on it. It isn't uncommon for docs to miss something like htat. My calcium levels were always good, so not one paid attention. But the calcium now is coming from the bone into the blood, not the other way around. So it is a problem.

This kind of thing happens. It is one reason we suggest creating a parent report. The link in my signature will take you to the parent report and explain it. I have found it to be the most powerful tool in my arsenal for helping my kids and myself.

(((((hugs)))))

You are a GOOD mom! We are glad you are here, and we know not all of our suggestions/ideas will work. So no offense will be taken if you find they don't work, have already tried them, or simply don't find it possible/feasible/a good idea to try them now! Promise!
 

buddy

New Member
Buddy - from everything I read about the American system... I'm not sure I'd trade. Some things work better there, other things work better here. There is no "perfect system". Anywhere!

Oh - and yes, you'll find we abbreviate the handles all sorts of ways... I become Insane, or IC; Dammit Janet is Janet; hearts&roses is often H&R, stepto2 becomes step.. so... EPT. If she wants a different "nickname" for her nichname, she can just tell us - we don't mind at all!

I love that...just took a minute for the old brain to figure it out...smile.
re: medical....oh yea you are too right. For example, thank heaven mine is adopted because in usa, if a child is adopted from foster care and they have special needs (including just being a hard to place older child) they have state insurance until age 18 (older if disabled). mine is also certified as permanently disabled so he will have it for life unless a miracle happens and he can employ himself and have his own insurance.... But for me since I had to quit work, I receive a pca-like salary to care for difficult child. It is a salary with taxes etc. taken out, not financial assistance, so I am like 100 dollars a year over poverty guidelines for ANY support, no reduced school lunches, no lower insurance rates, nothing. So no insurance (dental or health) for years. And I am generally healthy but have a back injury that is permanent as well as an auto-immune disease that needs to be monitored and managed. Nothing I can do, can't afford private doctor and can't afford insurance. Even the sliding scale programs say I make just over the guidelines. I finally just this week after years of nothing, found a clinic that takes people like me and lets us pay anything per month until the bill is paid. as long as you even pay a dollar you can get care. Thank Heaven! And it was a nice hospital based clinic with same day appointments, no long wait, etc. I was shocked because I imagined huge waiting rooms with tons of people just being served as they come. It is unthinkable that in our countries there is anyone denied medical care. If I ever need a hospital. I am in deep doo doo.
anyway, not the point of this thread but that is why I wondered about the health system. My grad. school friend from thunder bay said that there were times or situations where there were long referral waits but at least there always was care. That was back in the late 80's and she could only speak for her area, so that is why I wondered. I can see now from what people have shared that EPT may have a trickier time getting a more flexible answer on the medication issue. But EPT I see you are persistent so if anyone can gitterdone...you can!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
One thing I like about the American system is that it is not Freudian. Freud and his theories have been proven wrong. I always did believe these issues had biological bases and at least you CAN find professionals here who treat it as a medical problem. Even as a very depressed child, I recognized that I had always been this way and that it was not caused by my parents. They weren't perfect, but I hadn't suffered any major abuse issues or upheavals either...nothing really to make me as sad as I was.

I am not sure, but I believe in some places there is skepticism that these issues have biological bases. Adopted kids are usually more like their birthparents than their adoptive parents, even though most kids don't even know their birthparents. This can be all the way down to voice inflection and way of striding when one walks. If a birthparent is a drug user, the child is at greater risk, even if his adoptive parents don't have those issues.

So...although I think the cost of healthcare and access to it is ridiculous (I think everyone should have access to good healthcare), I do like our attitude toward mental illness more than I've seen from some other countries. Of course, my only knowledge is from people who post here too, so I could be way wrong.

Just had to stick up a bit for the USA :) Trust me, I know we don't do everything right, but I do think we are sort of ahead of the curve on mental health. And we've come a long way since I was a little kid, depressed and unable to learn and raging. Not only were things like that "hidden" but I was called a host of things that only made me feel worse..."lazy, underachiever, maladjusted..." Ugh.

OK, vent over :) :)
 

buddy

New Member
For sure, if you can access usa care, it is usually very good. When I had insurance I had great care. In grad school when I got depressed also got great care. No complaints on that account. As I said we are truly blessed with difficult child's MA and MA waiver because I have had NOTHING, not even braces denied for him. I can choose any doctor...(I realize times may change though)

But I have to stay healthy for my kiddo and it is really tough. No one would take him if I got sick and his going somewhere like a residential center or foster care would be terrible at this point. Maybe some day we would need that but for now I have good in home support. I just wanted to know more information about Canada because I didn't know if some of the ideas I was thinking of could even be considered. I love both countries for many reasons though, smile.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I havent read every post so I may have missed something but I am going to just say what I feel from the original post.

I dont think its too early in some very rare cases for conduct disorder to be present at this age. If everything that this poster says is accurate and I have every reason to believe her, then her son most definitely fits. There is an excellent book on this by Jonathan Kellerman called Savage Spawn: A Reflection on Violent Children.

Most people know Kellerman as just a mystery writer but he is actually a Phd psychologist who works with violent children and the courts. Excellent book.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
The teachers had absolutely NO indication that his blow up was coming or WHAT caused it.

This does NOT mean that there were no warning signs; it just means that the teachers do not know what to look for, and are not looking for anything.

In real life, a blow-up is always caused by something. Not necessarily something external... could just be a hormone system or brain chemical system so out of whack that it swings wildly. Or it could be a delayed reaction. Or it could be a hundred little things - and its only the "last straw" that triggers the blow-up, but you don't see a pattern yet because it isn't the same "last straw" on a consistent basis.

The more details you and they can track, the better chance of finding some patterns.
- time of day
- what subject
- what happened just before this class or activity
- what is he wearing
- did he eat lunch
- weather
- any thing else that you can think of that has ever seemed to be a trigger, or remotely could be logical.

Yes, weather is logical... some people have migraine headaches triggered by changes in barometric pressure. Who knows what else is triggered by weather.

The teachers may not be prepared to start a log yet - but you need to. Capture whatever detail is available. Over time, there will be enough information to start drawing conclusions... even if its just ideas of things to try.
 

Steely

Active Member
Yes, very good luck tomorrow!!!

And so sorry about today...OMG it flashed me back to the younger days with matt. Yuck.

I was wondering if you were a bit overwhelmed with all the posts to your thread. :) Feel free to start a new post like "what happened today at school" or "you can't believe" or whatever. It helps break all the information down into more bite size nuggets :) And we will not get our feelings hurt if you don't reply to every post - sometimes that is just impossible.

Many hugs.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Just an aside, I read that book a few years ago because I love Kellerman and it intrigued me. I would send it to you but I gave it to my therapist who deals with children all the time and has come across one or two who fit this criteria herself. Its a very sad situation.
 

ListenToMe

New Member
I was looking at this site for homework for graduate studies, and I had to join, because I could not stop thinking about the problem of a "psychopath" child. I really feel that there were things you could've done better (Who doesnt have this?) but it is time to put that behind and make changes. Conduct disorders are more prevalent then you may imagine - 2-6% of children and adolescents have CD. I also do not believe at age 6, that this abnormal - just less likely to happen. The belief I have read is that conduct disorders occur largely because of a lack of bond in infancy, but also, the child has learnt to be agressive to deal with feelings, problems, confrontations. This is reinforced in home and at school. So, because of the learnt behavior CD occurs more in adolescents then childhood. I do think that you need to put yourself out there. You can not be afraid that people will see you as "bad mother." What you must do is focus on your child and what is best for him. People will judge, because many people are ignorant or need to point the finger. You have to move past this fear and know that you are doing the right thing NOW. It sounds like you are on the way to this because you had him diagnosed as CD and are posting on here. If you cant find it in you to love your child, and work through this and find a way to love him - if you are scared, etc., you should do what is best for your family and let this child live in foster care. You must also think about your other children and their safety. But, if you think you have caught this early enough and can keep your other children safe, etc, then there are definitely some good interventions out there. The good thing about being diagnosed young - you have more time to correct him. What I would suggest is you attend a parent training courses in management skills. It will teach you better ways to manage him, effectively. Definitely do functional family therapy. And make sure your school provides your son with special education. If he isn't in special education yet, request your school to evaluate him with a functional behavior analysis (FBA) and when the results come back, at the IEP make sure he gets a behavior intervention plan or at least behavior support plan to help correct his behavior in school. What they have found sucessful is experiences that lead your son to feel self confident. He needs to learn positive interpersonal relationship skills. He needs a stable emotional relationship with one adult. He needs an open, supportive educational climate with postive parent modeling, and he needs social support from other adults. I hope this helps. Please get your son the needed help he needs so he grows up to be a wonderful adult. Its never too late.
 

ready2run

New Member
obviously you have no experience dealing with raising a child like ours. do you know how many of us seek out help repetitively from 'professional' people and how more often than not the advice/help they give us is totally useless and based on what works with normal kids that are having behaviour issues, not kids like what we deal with. it's so easy to preach to do this and that and point out that the parent is wrong when you sit up high in your professional pedistal but the reality is kids can be psychopaths in the making, some are like it or not. some parents aren't bonded with the kids because the kids make it impossible to do so. blaming the mom is not going to do her any good. it's not about learned behaviours in most of the cases here. it's about the way they think, or don't think that makes them act out as such or the way they perceive reality that messes up everything. you should not be on here.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Hi, Listentome.
Um ... thanks for posting. Sort of.
I got a bit peeved reading your note, which you based solely on textbook notes, rather than real life, so I can only imagine what this kid's mother is feeling right now. She's probably ready to leap through the screen and strangle you. If so, I'll be right there to help her. Your note was no help at all. You have NO CLUE as to what day-to-day life is like with-these kids. It is altogether way too easy to take the "high" road and say that if this mother cannot find it in herself to love this child, she should place him in foster care.
It isn't about not loving a child. It's about keeping your center and your perspective and your self esteem when all h*ll is breaking loose. (Not to mention, keeping your furniture intact, and your other children's faces and other body parts intact from what this child is doing to them.)
Thanks for trying out your book learning, but please, don't come back until you've graduated and have been in practice for 10 yrs, and have at least 3 kids of your own with a CD diagnosis.
Seriously.
 

totiredtofight

New Member
kudos Terry ..im with you on being there to help, As parents of difficult child's we walk thru the fires of hell for our kiddos, sometimes on a daily basis and as hard as it is sometimes we still do it and love our kids thru it .. our difficult child's didnt choose to be the way they are but we love them anyway..
 
T

TeDo

Guest
I will join that posse with you Terry & TTTF. Terry, your assessment of the content was right on and invoked the same feelings in me as it did you. TOTALLY inappropriate for our purposes here!!!
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Friends~ Just to clarify: This is an older thread drug up from last fall.

ListenToMe~ While I think your intentions were good, this forum is designed primarily for the parents/caregivers of difficult and oppositional children. This is a very challenging and difficult road we walk. Platitudes and advice from students and professionals are generally greeted with suspicion and disdain because so many of us have been blamed by the professional community and we have found that many have been trained to place that blame squarely on our shoulders. The parents that come here seek a safe place without judgement and where they are treated with the same courtesy and dignity that typical parents are automatically afforded.

I would recommend that you take the time to read about our families' lives and that many battles we face. The toll our children's problems take on each of us is great; many of us struggle financially due to lost work and have poor health due to stress. Perhaps, by closing off what you've been taught for a short while and opening your eyes to our reality, you will one day be one of the professionals that truly makes a positive difference in the lives of disordered children and their families.
 

buddy

New Member
This thread was hard for many of us, and this mom needed a lot of support. She has a terribly hurt child. She was suffering for herself and her child and her family. Trying t be honest and find real support and help. I think tired mommy said it very well. I have mentored new sp ed teachers and speech therapists and I often hear well meaning judgments in the form of trying to help... and it really does take extraordinary empathy to work with kids who are so so complex and challenging.

You may want to read a few books many of us use that help shed a tad bit more light (but still can't cover it fully ..... like actually living it)

The Explosive Child by Ross Greene
What your Explosive Child is Trying to Tell You Doug Riley (sp??)
Lost in School by Ross Greene

I second your looking at the threads, put yourself in the shoes of someone who has faithfully tried sticker charts, gone to one professional after another, had a child nearly die from mis diagnosis or being given the wrong medications, losing trust in school people (and I am ONE OF THEM--a person who worked in the field for years, had to quit to care for my disabled child and who has had to fight a maddening situation) because they often have their own agendas and are poorly supplied with support and training....

I have worked in Special Education, including birth through 21 and am a parent to a severely impaired child. Trust me when I say this... You will ONLY do a good job if you LISTEN to what parents are telling you about THEIR child. You might not like how things are said, but BELIEVE them. Listen to what they say not HOW they say it. No one loves a child like a parent. I am raising a child from foster care. It does damage. Even with quality foster parents. It is a last choice and sometimes a great choice given the situations but it is not a choice made lightly. (and by the way, not cheaply... if you have a child put in foster care you often have to pay)....

I have a former English teacher who put things this way...

There aint no easy answers to nothing.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I completely agree with what our members have told ListenToMe. Actually, your name is exactly what won't happen here or in real life because of your attitude, Listen. What needs to happen is for YOU to Listen To US. You are a student, and I give you credit for being well meaning and believing in what you are taught. When you actually enter the real world outside college, you are in for a RUDE awakening. What you suggest is less than a bandaid on a wound gushing pints of blood. Not that much and totally idiotic.

There is a reason you are a student, and there is NO way that reading a textbook or taking a test or class gives what you need to help our kids. Esp if you don't develop some common sense. PLEASE, I am BEGGING you, open your ears and mind and close your mouth. You CANNOT help kids if you lecture their parents. How often did a lecture help YOU when you were in the middle of a crisis?

We are parents who have poured love, years of hard work, and every resource we an beg, borrow, or steal into our kids to help them have a future that is healthy and productive. We get idiotic advice about sticker charts when our kids are HURTING people, and people wonder why we get impatient. HEck, I had a well meaning student tell me to give my son a token each time I "caught" him not hurting his sister. At the time I couldn't go use the bathroom alone unless my husband was home and in the room with the kids because otherwise my daughter ended up bruised and/or bloody from his abuse of her. The student therapist (who was a postdoctoral student) couldn't understand why I was so FURIOUS about his advice. THen I got his supervisor involved and she completely told him he was an idiot and to stop pushing tokens and start listening. MAYBE I could have gotten better behavior from my son with that token program. But what damage would it do to my daughter, who's own brother had to be PAID not to hurt her?

You are dealing with very complex situations and throwing textbook advice that just is NOT applicable in the real world at them. Wise up, listen, THINK things through, and MAYBE in a decade or two you will be able to understand and make intelligent suggestions.
 
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