I had to say it...

[Lil]

He sounds like an incredibly likable person. Likable to a fault, even.

Don't get me wrong. He can be very likable and personable. He will definitely bend over backwards for anyone he sees as a friend. But he certainly has his faults. For starters, he's very judgmental. He sees the world very black and white. He used to say, for instance, "ALL the girls in this town are wh**es." Okay, while in his defense he had a pretty bad experience with his one serious girlfriend in this town...it's not possible that ALL of a population is anything. Simply not. And he's the furthest thing from easy-going. If he has plans with a friend and they cancel, his day is RUINED! It's time for the world to END and they are clearly a$$holes and EVERYONE lets him down. He's very much the drama queen at times - has been literally since birth.

I misread your situation a bit, looks like. I thought your son was making more progress than this. Unfortunately, change doesn't necessarily mean improvement. So, while things may have changed since he was robbing you blind, the actual progress is much slower. It doesn't seem like he has any real intention of living well for himself. He is doing the absolute bare minimum to keep you and your husband where he wants you. He needs to try to improve his life for himself, not you. Anything else is superficial, and shaky. Like I've said, I made the decision to start my recovery for my aunt, because I didn't like myself enough to do it for me. It wasn't a very good start, but since then, I have come to appreciate the positive effects it has had on ME. I dislike myself less, too. I was hoping it would be the same for your son.

Yes, I think that's it exactly. He was doing okay for a bit, working, paying his own rent at least...but then he quit his job, then the fire, now he's just ... he thinks he's trying. At least he tells himself he is. But I'm sorry, it's not that hard to find a job in this town. He could be working. He refuses to even consider the temp agencies - even the temp to hire ones. There was one that had a 9 to 5 warehouse position, no heavy lifting, long-term, 20 hours per week, no weekends, $10/hr. He wouldn't even apply. When he first came home, I thought things might have progressed a bit...he wasn't working or doing much, but the "I have to hang out with my friends" had stopped. We seem to be slipping back into old habits.

 

[Lil]

Once that day comes, the consequences come, whatever they are. He has had ample time. This is where it gets really, really hard for you. Not so much him. It's really hardest for you.

It does not matter if the apartment is not ready or the roommate bailed. He is responsible for dealing with curve balls. He needs to have looked for alternatives. Not excuses.

You are right. I know, intellectually, that you are all right. I don't know how I'm going to do it though. That's the hard part.

I see it coming. I see: "But I don't have any money, I can't pay the rent. But K bailed on me and J's being a little b!tch and won't leave his grandma's house to be my roommate and I can't do it on my own. I can't move to the apartment; the shelter is full, there's no where for me to go!" "Are you really going to make me sleep on the street? Why? What did I do? I did everything you asked me to do! I did my dishes and my laundry and didn't make a mess. I didn't smoke in the house. I didn't do anything wrong!!! How can you put me out on the streets with nothing?"

I see it. I hear it in his voice. Just typing it made me cry. I think I have to get off now for a bit and get my office door shut.

 

[Jabberwockey]

We seem to be slipping back into old habits.

I really didn't want to mention this last night but I think that this is truer than you might think.

Think about this. Sunday evening he comes home from J's and he eats a whole party pizza and at least a serving and a half of breakfast scramble. The next morning he can barely choke down a sausage, egg, and hash brown biscuit. Monday afternoon he and J come back, J leaves after a half an hour without watching Game of Thrones (the main reason he came in the first place) claiming to not feel well after ALL the crap he supposedly did to get our son to come visit him and within a half an hour, hour max, our son is out cold till well after midnight. I'd say that at least part of his job hunting problem is that he knows he cant pass the urinalysis right now. How he's been acting since J came back to town is making me twitchy.

 

[Lil]

I really didn't want to mention this last night but I think that this is truer than you might think.

Think about this. Sunday evening he comes home from J's and he eats a whole party pizza and at least a serving and a half of breakfast scramble. The next morning he can barely choke down a sausage, egg, and hash brown biscuit. Monday afternoon he and J come back, J leaves after a half an hour without watching Game of Thrones (the main reason he came in the first place) claiming to not feel well after ALL the crap he supposedly did to get our son to come visit him and within a half an hour, hour max, our son is out cold till well after midnight. I'd say that at least part of his job hunting problem is that he knows he cant pass the urinalysis right now. How he's been acting since J came back to town is making me twitchy.

I know. This is concerning me too.

J really was upset though. I don't know what about, but something was clearly bothering him. He left without even taking his guitar.

 

[TheWalrus]

I know this has been a roller coaster pattern with my daughter for several years: improvement, sometimes huge improvement, for a time and then either a gradual or immediate regression. I cannot tell you how many times my hopes were up amd I would think, "Ok, this time is different. This time she is different. We are past the worst." It was so heartbreaking to watch her crash again and again and again. I never have understood if it was self-sabotage or if she just isn't capable of sustained positive change, if her habits, behaviors, addictions, are just too strong to turn away from. Now that I know her full situation - the drugs and Borderline (BPD) - I at least understand all the rise and fall. And I don't believe there will ever be anything I can do, or anyone else can do, to make her sustain the change. She will have to want it very badly and seek out the appropriate help. It is beyond anything the average person can do, regardless of the amount of love involved.

 

[Jabberwockey]

J really was upset though. I don't know what about, but something was clearly bothering him. He left without even taking his guitar.

Which kinda leads me to believe that he thinks that his time at the Grandparents is just about at an end. J may be up front more personable than our son but both are still seriously lacking in social skills.

 

[so ready to live]

Hi Lil & Jabber. So familiar-but we couldn't/didn't want to see it. Be smarter than we were, whatever you do. Our son even went through the motions (twice) with vocational rehab type placement. (of course we initiated it) he could have had a job and even job coach if necessary. They would have purchased appropriate interview/work clothes if needed. All kinds of assistance and yet after initial few meetings he quit going. He said "I can find my own job" We SHOULD have translated "If I go a few times and appear like I'm trying, you will continue to help me and then I can't pass a drug test so I'll quit going". and so it goes...I know the "homeless" feelings, I'm happy it's getting warmer-I should just say that because I love spring, but it's really because it won't be so cold for him if he's outside at night. I have found it also true as others have said, these kids/adults are much more able to fend for themselves than we would ever be. The question is really "is living in your house allowing this behavior"? We all make our decisions differently, no right or wrong, just our own. Good luck, been there, done that, and wish you didn't have to.... Prayers.

 

[Childofmine]

Oh yes, they will throw all of this stuff at us, and we get all confused and trying to sort it out, and yes there are truths in what they are saying, so we're even more confused....and emotional...and scared....and then...

So many times, this is exactly what happened with Difficult Child. I so so so get this, Lil.

I see it coming. I see: "But I don't have any money, I can't pay the rent. But K bailed on me and J's being a little b!tch and won't leave his grandma's house to be my roommate and I can't do it on my own. I can't move to the apartment; the shelter is full, there's no where for me to go!" "Are you really going to make me sleep on the street? Why? What did I do? I did everything you asked me to do! I did my dishes and my laundry and didn't make a mess. I didn't smoke in the house. I didn't do anything wrong!!! How can you put me out on the streets with nothing?"

This is where the keep it simple (keep it simple for YOU) really comes in. You already know he is going to do this. So....can you and Jabber...ahead of time...decide what you are going to do? Write it down. I mean put it down on a piece of paper. Literally.

Then...when you have the talk with him...just let him go through all of the stuff that you wrote above. Just wait and let him get it out.

Then, go back to what you decided...whatever that is...and that is what you tell him, and that is what you do, no matter what else he throws at you. Because he won't like it, whatever you come up with, so there will be more mud thrown. Mud in your eye clouds your vision (to coin a phrase). You can't see clearly because you are a mass of feelings (of course you are! You are his mother!).

They have us at such a disadvantage here. So we have to prepare like we would prepare for a business meeting...and then stick to the script. That is key.

You have choices. You and Jabber have choices about what you will allow and do. Make those choices. Then calmly tell him and stick to them. Let him be the one who is raging out of control. You don't have to be.

Warm warm tight hugs. We're here with you, no matter how it goes. And the standard is certainly not perfection.

 

[TheWalrus]

So Ready - You worded that perfectly. My daughter does the same, "I can do ____ on my own," and I have just learned the translation. "I have done enough to show some effort, suck you back in, give you false hope, and now I can revert back to what I want to do."

 

[PonyGirl65]

Just sending (((HUGS)))

I really, really like what Childofmine suggested. Write. It. Down. And then Stick. To. It. So hard, so so very hard, we all know!!

Whatever else the boy has going on, he needs to work and support himself. Period. Amen. I don't care how many friends he has or doesn't, how lonely he is or will be. He's 21. Time to be on his own. Suck it up, buttercup. Don't like working Fast Food? Tough. Shoulda stayed in school. Don't want to work weekends? Tough. Shoulda stayed in school. Don't like your supervisor? Ha. Don't make me laugh.

Okay - SORRY! I was just venting on your behalf....

Cry those tears, Lil. And then. Dry them! You got this. Your son will be better for it. You and Jabber will be better for it.

Again with the ((((HUGS))))

Peace

 

[Copabanana]

the shelter is full, there's no where for me to go!" "Are you really going to make me sleep on the street? Why? What did I do? I did everything you asked me to do!

I am in the same place, again.

It is complicated for us because my son receives SSI, meaning he is certifiably seriously mentally ill by some, thus is not obligated to work (in fact, he is deterred from working) and he has a medical marijuana card.

The deal is that he can have a place to live (the rental house we bought) if he works with us to remodel it, if he keeps it clean, and if he does something constructive to work towards a goal.

He agreed.

My son does enough to stay in the game, and no more. But there is no real commitment to do well or do seriously better. Some could say that it is because we are imposing the conditions on him. There is no buy in so when the cat is gone the mice will play. And that indeed is what happens.

But he has been working. Some days he expresses pleasure. His slip ups seem related to marijuana. It is his primary pleasure and motivator.

When it was clear to me that my son could not sustain even his mood, let alone work, with his marijuana, I told him no marijuana around me. Even when under the influence.He gets depressed, morose, lethargic, unmotivated after the effects wear out. The effects when he is not high define the limits of his life. He is using it when we are not around. We know and he admitted it.

I told him to leave the house today.

The energy is coming from us. M is exhausted by it because he supervises my son at work and is more the one who does so where he is living. He is trying to spare me at cost to himself. Burn out.

But I have been happy to have my son close, happy to see him happier. Happy to be able to love him, without his hurting me. He is way less hostile. Way more cooperative.

My son is dependent upon us, when he accepts our house. Some argue that I should leave him alone to do as he wants and to accept his terms. To allow the positive effects of having a place to live, off the street, to emerge. M believes that the only way my son will change is if we teach him (stay on him.) Insist that he work. Insist that he live properly (kind of like a kind of program.)

When I left there last night my son said you will see. Tomorrow we will find a solution to this.

So much has been gained. But my son needs to get to the next step. No matter how much I want to I cannot take it for him.

 

[A dad]

Just sending (((HUGS)))

I really, really like what Childofmine suggested. Write. It. Down. And then Stick. To. It. So hard, so so very hard, we all know!!

Whatever else the boy has going on, he needs to work and support himself. Period. Amen. I don't care how many friends he has or doesn't, how lonely he is or will be. He's 21. Time to be on his own. Suck it up, buttercup. Don't like working Fast Food? Tough. Shoulda stayed in school. Don't want to work weekends? Tough. Shoulda stayed in school. Don't like your supervisor? Ha. Don't make me laugh.

Okay - SORRY! I was just venting on your behalf....

Cry those tears, Lil. And then. Dry them! You got this. Your son will be better for it. You and Jabber will be better for it.

Again with the ((((HUGS))))

Peace

How I wish that was true what you said.
It should have been, Don't like working Fast Food? Tough. But that is life. Don't want to work weekends? Tough. But that is life. Don't like your supervisor? Ha. Don't make me laugh.
So basically this is life and you have to power trough. School does not spare you of any of the above.

 

[Copabanana]

Don't like working Fast Food? Tough. But that is life. Don't want to work weekends? Tough. But that is life. Don't like your supervisor? Ha. Don't make me laugh.

This is Lil's thread, not mine, but I will pose a question here.

There is the question of capacity, and whether our individual children have the capacity to learn life's lessons or not. I threw my son out over 4 years ago believing that he needed this to learn life's lessons. He did not. He sunk. Got on SSI, etc.

He has changed a great deal: attitude, cooperation, loving, way less aggressive, willing to work (for us).

And he has grown in his knowledge of the world and how to hold himself. But because of intrinsic differences or motivation or whatever he is unwilling to set his sites to take on the realities that most of us deal with in our lives.

On several threads right now there is the question of whether tough love works. TL in her thread mentioned that the research shows it does not work in many cases.

My question is this: To what extent do we let them suffer hard knocks, just because, if we can no longer tell ourselves that it works?

 

[InsaneCdn]

My question is this: To what extent do we let them suffer hard knocks, just because, if we can no longer tell ourselves that it works?

We MUST consider the other half of the equation.
"just because" may not be enough of a reason.
"I can't take anymore", however, IS a reason.

We are not getting younger. When we are no longer here, they will have to take their knocks. Being too protective, isn't fair to them, any more than "I don't care, just go" is fair.

The trick is... (no, I haven't found that spot yet) how to provide somem basic level of support, without "killing" ourselves.

 

[Copabanana]

The trick is... (no, I haven't found that spot yet) how to provide somem basic level of support, without "killing" ourselves.

This post of yours, Insane, I find highly interesting and deep. I will have to do some work to understand it.

What you are saying here, I think, is that everything has a cost. And our children need to understand that, both in terms of the cost to themselves and the cost to others around them. That in addition to all of the specific, objective changes we want for them--as important, or more important I would say, is their need to understand human suffering, and take responsibility for it.

As we feel theirs, their is their need to see ours, and that of others. And to get there, we need to own, and to acknowledge and to remedy our own suffering--to take responsibility--not just for ourselves but for them.

Nobody can or should be a doormat for another person. There is right and wrong in this world. Taking responsibility to do right for oneself and oneself is both a real thing--and a necessary one.

So how to translate this into a stance that works? How to keep them close, while this process is modeled? Insane, this is tough. Did I get the gist of what you wrote?

Insane, glad you are here with me.

 

[InsaneCdn]

So how to translate this into a stance that works? How to keep them close, while this process is modeled? Insane, this is tough.

Yes it is TOUGH.

And yes, I'm in the same place with a ... shall we say, not quite ripe young "adult" male.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think it varies from person to person. I think some are capable of learning and changing on their own and make the choice not to, while others do not have that capacity on their own. What I think has to be present in both cases is the want, desire and drive to change, make better choices, live a different life. Until that is present, that ownership of responsibility for their life paths, no amount of guidance changes anything. It is the adage,"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink." Until they thirst for change, it cannot be thrust upon them nor gift wrapped and presented with a shiny red bow. Look how many have all but given their children a new life? Bailed them out? Given food, clothes, housing? Without the need to change that is nothing but enabling. I have a good friend who opened my way of thinking to enabling. We may think we do it for our loved ones but we really do it for ourselves - so we feel better, less guilty, less judged, a better parent, whatever - because when we are truly, truly honest with ourselves, we know we aren't "helping." We sometimes are only reinforcing bad habits, behaviors, and interactions. There is no magic fix all and no way to diagnose the one thing (or multiple things) it would take to get our children on a good path they can remain on. But sometimes it is our denial of that, the denial of just how helpless we are to change another, that makes us embrace the fantasy that we can.

 

[Lil]

I feel as though we need to sit him down...one last time...and warn him. I feel as though we should say, one more time, "You know this was temporary. You know that when the apartment comes open, you have to leave. We know that you expected a roommate, but we warned you that you need to be able to pay for things yourself. You can if you work full-time, or even part time, if you make enough per hour. We know you've been putting in applications, but we don't feel you haven't done everything you could to find work. There are lots of places you haven't tried. You've been lucky in that the apartment is still not ready, but when it is, if you are not ready, that will be on YOU. You've had time to find work. You still have time, but it's running out. We know you like hanging out with friends, but your priority now HAS to be finding a job. If you aren't spending literally all day every day looking, you aren't doing all you can."

But the fact is, I've said this. I already have said this.

 

[RN0441]

He probably thinks like my son. "My mom and dad will figure it out".

 

[Lil]

He probably thinks like my son. "My mom and dad will figure it out".

He probably thinks that, if he has nowhere to go, we'll let him stay.

The fact is, when we first said he could come home, it was to get on his feet...even if that took longer than the apartment being ready. But he turned us down at that time because he wouldn't leave his friend. When he finally did come, we said it was until the apartment was ready and that was it.

I WANT him to be able to stay until he's ready - but he has to be TRYING. He just isn't really. Not like he needs to be.