I need some help/suggestions please!

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Tiapet, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Tiapet

    Tiapet Old Hand

    Ms Queen has a serious language problem. Specifically cursing up a storm. Her disregard towards me and So is horrendous (of course she will curse at the other difficult child's too). It isn't like she doesn't know how and when to use the words either and boy does she freely! I have talked to therapist who has no suggestion.

    In old times I'm sure she'd be smacked from here to kingdom come and then some but that isn't going to happen at all. Hot sauce or soap isn't an option either (that'd warrant a call to cps for sure I'm told).

    It seems no matter what we do the language just doesn't stop. She is mouthy and nasty to begin with (and if you've read about Ms Emo over in PE it's like that but a younger version). This is my MOST difficult "doesn't get it/don't care" child. The one we can't figure out if she really doesn't get it or if she does, does she really care.

    Seems no amount of rewards or consequences works for her. We could give her a consequence 1,000 times and she still won't learn from her mistake. Likewise we could reward her 1,000 times for making the right choice but she would turn around and make the wrong one anyway because "she feels like it or I don't know why I did it".

    Her pscyh testing did not show an IQ deficit that would indicate she is not capable of understanding things. It was about average. But the way she acts and the things she does you would swear she has some MR or cognitive impairments. *sigh* It is terribly frustrating to us, to all of us.

    I just can not< NOT> tolerate the cursing anymore. I am not going to be told F you anymore, shut up B, or you B, A**hole, B**tard, jerk (said in that combination) OR told to get off my fat lazy a** because she doesn't want to get or do something an 11 yo should be able to do for herself (such as get a glass out of the cupboard to get a drink, pick up her own clothes off the floor, etc.).

    *BIG BIG SIGH* PLEASE anyone, have some kind of suggestion for this that isn't illegal and may work? She has pushed too far and my hands are tied to be able to do anything but this is IT! I am tired of all the abuse from the girls (yes they are kids so....) I didn't take it from ex any longer and I've had enough.
  2. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Is the situation bad enough to warrant totally cleaning out her room, making sure she has NO access to anything but the bed, limited amount of clothing, and basic meals - no games, video games, tv, toys, anything??

    Is there a particular friend that you would do well keeping her away from?

    Maybe simply not hearing ANYTHING she has to say if it includes a curse word??

    Sorry, it is hard to know what will help here.

    Go to the bookstore and look at the Love and Logic books, one of them might have a good solution.

    L&L might also help with the other kids. We have had great results with it.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Has she ever had the full neuropsychologist evaluation?
    If not, I recommend it as it is more intensive then any sort of evaluation and can find things that others miss. She could have some sort of neurological deficit. You can be brilliant or average in IQ but still unable to understand social norms. I would want this checked out as it can be helped, but not with talk therapy. You can find NeuroPsychs at University Hospitals and Children's Hospitals. My son had ten hours of testing, and we finally got him right.
  4. Tiapet

    Tiapet Old Hand

    Susie she already only has a bed in her room, a bookshelf that has a few beanie babies (which she doesn't play with) and a radio. She had a tv and had lost it for a year and recently finally got that back (unrelated to language as this is long standing). She lost her dresser for refusing to clean up room and more importantly she steals and hides food and under advise of team we had to take away every source she hid it in. We'd find food in her clothes in the dressers (even under her pillow in bed! ewww).

    She doesn't play with many toys at all. Like to draw and such and that's all downstairs only as if she gets a hold of scissors she will cut other then paper (she cuts paper like it's free flowing and endless supply).

    She doesn't really play with anyone in neighborhood as no one wants to play with her or is allowed to (parents don't care for her as they have learned her lies and manipulations). Sad situation really. I feel for her. You'd think she would be really really miserable but she is a happy little girl for the most part and just doesn't "get it" all around about the situation in neighborhood or anything else at all. She does get bored of course even when occupied with something it only takes a minute unless she is doing crafts. That she can do endlessly for hours upon hours.

    She is has been limited to everything for one reason or another on and off as consequences. Her little cheap mp3 player is the only other amusement she has and loves. She has a game boy and will play with that. Those are the things in her life.

    We have the book love and logic and have used that as well as very many other approaches in books (riley and others) as well as therapist suggested things. Hence why we are out. I just thought I'd throw this out to all you guys because therapist don't know all the ins and outs like we do and we've come up with some inventive ideas at times.

    No midwest, she has not had a neuro done and I WANT one done for her. In fact I told her psychiatrist this. His reply, well it won't show anything else but you can go ahead and have it done. I really don't like this guy much as he tends to talk down and can't handle parents that are educated about their childrens's issues or have experience (read god like attitude). I'm still going ahead with it however because in my gut I KNOW something is not right here and we haven't found that missing puzzle piece at all.

    In the mean time I'm hanging on, and have been, by a thread but desperately looking around for something, anything to patch the time.

    Thanks for the ideas ladies.
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I disagree Tiapot. Have that neuropsychologist. She has some red flags for issues beyond what he has found. psychiatrists are not that aware of neurological problems that can cause a social disconnect, which she seems to have.
    How was this child's early development...speech, eye contact, reaction to sensory stuff, relationship with peers? Any strange obsessions/interests? Any weird movements, like hand flapping? I could be way off, but I'm thinking she should be looked at for things like possible Aspergers Syndrome (which psychiatrists often miss) or NonVerbal Learning Disorder (NVLD)...stuff like that. A neuropsychologist is best for these things. These kids can get VERY defiant because they don't "get it" and are easily frustrated, living in a world they really don't understand. And they drive us crazy because we think they should be able to learn how to behave, yet they don't seem to do it nor do they seem to care. NC has some excellent university hospitals, don't they? (((Hugs))).
  6. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    If you've tried everything and nothing has worked, ignore it. Detach from the words. All you've done isn't changing her and continuing to try is making you crazy. Next time she starts, calmly tell her "people won't like you if you talk like that" and then respond to her meaning rather than her words. It may not change her but at least you stop banging your head against the wall.
  7. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    Wish I had advice, but the best I can do is hugs.
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    It sounds like you have been through the wringer. I am sorry your psychiatrist thinks he is so great no one will find anything he didn't. psychiatrists often don't know about neurological issues OR the behavior problems they can cause. I would do the neuropsychologist AND have a child neuro evaluate her (if you haven't already). the child neuro should include a sleep deprived EEG to be thorough.

    With the entire neighborhood not liking her and her not picking up on it at age 12, there is certain to be something else going on.

    Hugs, this is tough to live with.
  9. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member


    I have to say that I believe further testing is necessary as well. To heck with what her psychiatrist says - insist on the referral to a neuro. She does not have the ability to understand social issues and the food hording/hiding is another issue. The language, at her age, should be able to be controlled with simple consequences.

    I would get some further testing done. Something is going on here that her psychiatrist is missing. Go with your gut and don't take no for an answer.

  10. timer lady

    timer lady Queen of Hearts

    I agree that further evaluations should be considered. I'd also like to add that after 7 years with tweedles dee & dum that I could never control what went into or came out of my difficult children mouths.

    After a few years of constant repetition & "redo's" the tweedles learned that while I couldn't control them outside of my home, I could & would darned well have respect & common decency in my home.

    For the most part now, kt doesn't curse or swear in our home & when she does, she catches herself & rephrases things. Again, this was a long time coming.
  11. Have you tried writing down everything she is saying and then presenting her with it? This has worked a few times for our difficult child. We take him to a place such as Starbucks for quiet discussions like these. He's too worried about public appearances for the most part and won't bolt. This was done over the course of a year - it didn't work overnight, but realization as to what he was actually doing started taking hold a little.
  12. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I can totally relate to this. For awhile when difficult child was younger we had to basket C it because of so many other issues. Now though it's a different story. Nothing works all the time. Much of the time I have him go to his room-he hates timeouts so that helps some of the time but it's short term-doesn't last long. We are really working on it but haven't found the one thing that works best yet. I do think we are seeing him swear less and less.

    Sending understanding hugs your way.
  13. JodyS

    JodyS New Member

    I agree. Sounds like something is going on with her. I would definately push for further testing.
  14. Christy

    Christy New Member

    IGNORE. Walk away from her. Do not respond to any sentence with an inappropriate word. Refuse to take her places because her cursing reflects poorly on your family. Easier said than done, I know. But the reality is that short of duck tape (another thing on the CPS no-no list) it is impossible to control what comes out of her mouth.

    I agree with what others have said, a neuropsychologist could give you a beter understanding of why she acts the way she does and may lead to some changings in treatment.

    Good Luck!
  15. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    I have a few suggestions - but I don't know anything that works across the board with every child.

    When she curses - the minute she does - walk away from her. Tell her after she's done that it is a SHAME that such a smart young lady can not find any better words to express herself and that you're sorry she has no SELF RESPECT in continuing to use words like she does. Tell her they aren't getting a rise out of you anymore - and you thought she was brighter than to use the same words over and over - then let it go. When she curses again - since our kids are largely narcissistic and do not learn by repetition - just look at her again and walk away saying "Your lack of self respect is just so sad." or "There's no way you can respect yourself and continue to use language like that." then walk away. Ask her if she even HEARS how ignorant and uneducated she sounds. THAT stopped Dude cold. He didnt' like to be ignorant or uneducated sounding.

    By walking away - you are telling her that you dont' care to hear her conversation if she's using inappropriate words. These kids are angry and want to be heard and fell like most people who swear constantly that they will really drive home their point with those words. To change that mind set I think you have to constantly bombard them with sayings like "Your lack or self respect is pityful, I didn't know you felt so ugly inside." and things of that nature. You're using reverse psychology on them AND walking away.

    Next would be to use substitute words and rewards. This involves her learning a new, more respectable to HERSELF (again narcissistic rules) words - like sugar etc. If she uses those words in a sentence tell her for the 1st week every time she uses an ALTERNATIVE word - she gets a dime - every time she slips and uses a Negative, self -degrading word, she gives YOU the dime. Try that for a couple weeks - and eventually wean her down to a nickle - and then in a few months it becomes HABIT - and for ever conversation she has anger and does not use self-degrading words - you give her A DOLLAR.

    The BEST thing that has worked with Dude was SHOCK AND AWE - Every time we heard a curse word - EVERYONE in our house stopped what they were doing, we shut off the TV, we turned off the radio, stopped working, closed our books and everyone came into the room and the self-degrading word was spelled out - and every one was just silent - this worked awesome in church - then everyone just hugged him because they said if he was THAT angry to use THAT word - he must need LOVE. It eventually has gotten to the point that if he does slip he will say "I'm sorry." and now I say - I'm sorry you're so angry that you continue to use self- degrading words or I ignore it.

    The funniest thing we ever did was have the F'ing, S***, DAM* conversation - with the B*#&^ and BAS$#$&#37; thrown in for "dramatic effect". DF and I took one entire day to use expletives and cuss words in every day language in front of Dude - the rule was - NO conversation could be had in the house without using at least 5 cuss words. From the Morning to the night - and Dude got to hear what it sounded like from 2 people who did not curse or cuss.

    Like the day started out in the hall - F'ing goodmoring you #@(_@( Bas"KLERJ....Yeah YOU F#iNg BALKNG well Good FING morning to you too....and on it went.

    By the end of the day Dude was covering his ears and saying "OKAY ALRIGHT ALREADY - STOP, PLEASE." and without missing a beat DF looked at him and said "WHY THE F should WE Fing STop Fing CUSSING? TO Fing makd YOU Fing HAPpy?"

    - at that point everyone laughed and we explained that WHILE ANYONE can cuss - it's self-degrading to do it all the time. It makes you sound ignorant and uneducated. And THAT was the ticket for dude

    Hope something in here Helps.
  16. Tiapet

    Tiapet Old Hand

    I've been reading this all intently. Star I like your idea of the self respect one. If she gets it (and again we're still trying to figure that one out) maybe it will work. We've tried all the other suggestions everyone has posted and/or variations of it. The money one worked but she'd continue once money was withdrawn (aka I can control this but I'm not going to unless I get money). You can not endlessly give anyone money like that nor will we.

    We have gone around cursing all day, all of us (and we don't curse as a rule either). Didn't work. She just ignored it altogether. You see ex used to curse every other word so to her it is normal. Little dude used to curse up a storm a lot for a while too but his reasoning was "my father used to and he's not here so I have to do it now" (literally those were his words to his therapist way back). Now he will only do it when he is raging with food allergy.

    Working on that neuro appointment as I type!

    OK came back to edit this because don't I feel like the big kahuna of DUHVILLE right now! :( :(

    So Ms Queen HAS already undergone the testing. Twice as a matter of fact. Once in first grade and just done again about 9 months ago. I knew it as psychological testing and thought there was something different with the NEURO in front of it. *NO WONDER* the psychiatrist talked to me the way he did. It's the same. The tests are the same. Doesn't matter who gives them. I really, really feel stupid. You ladies (well some of you will) have no idea how this makes me feel at this moment. I'm on top of this stuff and have been for years and thought I was missing something here and it appears I wasn't.

    Now I am upset because I don't know where to turn. If all this testing showed what it did and we STILL have no answers where does that leave us? I mean we can't figure out if she truly understands things (in many cases, some we know she clearly does). And if she does does she care (it appears in many cases she clearly does not and THAT is very scary if you knew what they were). We tossed around attachment disorder based on some of the symptoms yet couldn't really pin down why she'd have that. Could she really have an anti social personality disorder or something like it or conduct disorder at such a young age? Something is not right here and I don't know what it is none of us do and now I don't know where else to turn with it.

    Unless she is in a situation where she is the only child (such as when she stays with her grandmother) and is required to follow the rules there (basic normal rules) she doesn't do well. School is a problem no matter what academically she just can't do math, basic simple math. I'm not kidding. She can't tell time unless it's digital and even then she doesn't get what the numbers mean she only reads them. She has no concept with money no matter how hard we've tried to teach her. Yet she can do the testing and make the score she did which is below average only?

    No social clues able to be taken, no understanding about anything social. False feelings or overly strong feelings/reactions that don't appear to truly be real (she can turn off most crying on a dime). She will laugh at any and everything funny or not.

    Talk about anything to do with sexual or body, she's right there noticing it inappropriately. For instance a commercial for something where the lady has a skirt on and twirls. She says "you can see her underwear!" You can't see her underwear at all but why the heck is she even looking there? (this is a normal pattern for her to notice body parts in reality or what ever the situation is) Neither I nor Mz Queen ever dress provocatively or even close to it yet she like nothing more then to try to get away with wearing something that is inappropriate (like a skirt that is too short for example).

    Add in all the lying, steal (food, things, no money, etc.)

    UGH! This is just horrible and I could probably list so much more. I look at her and see a sweet, pretty, smiley/happy little girl that is looking for love so badly. Yet on the other side is this nasty, nasty stuff that you can't overlook and no one has any answers as the days, weeks, years are ticking by and the issues are growing. I am and have been scared for about a year now as I saw some of this progressing. More so when people weren't having answers.

    I am struggling each day to protect her and protect the rest of family/outsiders at the same time. How, how do any of you who are handling similar do it?

    Thanks for listening to my off target vent.