In need of support
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pigless in VA
Well-Known Member
Friends, thank you very much for your replies, thoughts, and encouragements. SO and I have had some extremely hard talks. For today, I am hanging in there and expecting some changes. I understand that people do not change their behaviors easily. For my piece in all of this, I am not vocal enough when something happens that upsets or angers me.
Living with my late husband, I learned to behave very differently from the average person. I had to suppress all of my feelings in order to not rock that treacherous boat of mental illness. What I need to do now is completely opposite to the way I used to behave. I have to speak up and be assertive. One of the things I have been assertive about is my need to be away from his anger. We get no where in talking when he is angry. It takes him days to regroup and get to a place where he can hear what I have to say. Then he is a very different person. I think that's an awfully long time to hold onto anger; I get over mine much more quickly. I just know that I have no choice but to withdraw when he is behaving that way.
Several of you suggested therapy for me. I have had a good therapist for many years. I wouldn't have survived living with my psychotic husband without her. We also have a good couples' counselor. The support piece is in place.
I don't know at this point what the outcome will be, but I'm okay with that. Our power was restored last night, but we are headed to the farm for a week. I don't have internet access there but will check in when I can.
Thank you so much for caring and giving me many things to consider and think about.
You guys rock!
Living with my late husband, I learned to behave very differently from the average person. I had to suppress all of my feelings in order to not rock that treacherous boat of mental illness. What I need to do now is completely opposite to the way I used to behave. I have to speak up and be assertive. One of the things I have been assertive about is my need to be away from his anger. We get no where in talking when he is angry. It takes him days to regroup and get to a place where he can hear what I have to say. Then he is a very different person. I think that's an awfully long time to hold onto anger; I get over mine much more quickly. I just know that I have no choice but to withdraw when he is behaving that way.
Several of you suggested therapy for me. I have had a good therapist for many years. I wouldn't have survived living with my psychotic husband without her. We also have a good couples' counselor. The support piece is in place.
I don't know at this point what the outcome will be, but I'm okay with that. Our power was restored last night, but we are headed to the farm for a week. I don't have internet access there but will check in when I can.
Thank you so much for caring and giving me many things to consider and think about.
You guys rock!
Scent of Cedar *
Well-Known Member
Raised as I was, and as my D H was too, there was so much work for both D H and myself to do, to get ourselves to this place.
We have been married forty-three years pigless, and together forty-four.
You two can do this.
Cedar
It was kind of you to keep us posted, pigless.
:O)
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Pigless, I am sorry I missed this crisis and your thread. It seems like things have quieted down and with that has come some perspective about where you are, each of you, and together.
My take is different than some of the others. I believe that having problems emerge is the basis for their resolution. Having impossible things about us, emerge into the light, is a given. The question in any relationship is the commitment to resolution. By both people. Problems can be the reason to end a relationship or the beginning to strengthen it by resolving or learning to accept what is our lifeblood: difference and the longing to overcome it through intimacy.
One thing I am learning is that men have the same longing for care, safety, protection as do women, even though their social roles do not specifically prioritize these things.
The other thing I am learning is that I look for a relationship where I can resolve issues in my past. Well, if I do that, is it not fair that a man do this too?
There are no givens anymore in relationships. Both my sister and I are economically in way better spaces than our mates. I have the option of demanding my SO keep up appearances in order that my ego not be damaged, or I can change my own expectations.
Well. Your SO does not appear to meet the ideal you had in mind. You picked him. Why? Was it only pathology on your part? Only deception on his? Or was there something more?
At best, it is usually a compromise--I will take a part, but part of it is you too. In good and lasting relationships, each person is willing to do this work honorably, accepting a piece of the responsibility but in my experience there is always some defensiveness while we try to deflect responsibility so as to protect our idealized sense of self.
The best we can do is to hope for, in the light of day, some kind of safe zone of negotiation during which we can analyze what happened and decide just what happened and its meaning. We can either modify our opinion of the other, or our sense of who we are. It sounds as if this is what is happening now, Pigless.
Relationships between older people cannot be other than this. There is so much water under the bridge. So much damage already done. So much "me" already institutionalized. So little give, sometimes, but so much want and need. How could it not be fraught?
M and I were talking this morning about investment decisions which very much center on our security and on my son's when I die. A whole lot hinges upon how competent my son is when I die, to handle our assets.
So I said something like this: Well, I think SON is maturing and changing. Slowly, but it is happening.
So M replied: Well, he is. I am trying to teach him but you have to too. A lot of it depends upon you. For him to change, you have to change, because he will learn these things he needs from your example. Disorganization, the lack of serious commitment, a lack of self-control--he learned from you. You have to change these things for him to get better.
For five seconds I thought to myself, why does he love me if I am so flawed? And before I could think it I remembered, because he does. He loves me. There is no questioning why or how come.
We decide these things as we go.
That is what Cedar and her D H already know after forty something years together. Because they stayed. They kept crossing the bridge back to each other, no matter what, because of countless decisions to do so--not because they were or were not flawed, each of them.
They decided each time there was a schism that they wanted to stay not because the other was perfect or imperfect, but because that was what they decided to do. I am here, because I decided to be here. Not for any other reason. The problems are only the beginning. After that there is choice.
My take is different than some of the others. I believe that having problems emerge is the basis for their resolution. Having impossible things about us, emerge into the light, is a given. The question in any relationship is the commitment to resolution. By both people. Problems can be the reason to end a relationship or the beginning to strengthen it by resolving or learning to accept what is our lifeblood: difference and the longing to overcome it through intimacy.
OK. So this is good. Now you know. It is on the table.
I am like you, Pigless. I have spent my life overcoming limitations and losses and aspiring to have more. Relationships were sacrificed or were not the priority.
Well. I see this differently. He did summon up the courage by telling you 3/4 time through the counseling. Better late than never. Joke.
One thing I am learning is that men have the same longing for care, safety, protection as do women, even though their social roles do not specifically prioritize these things.
The other thing I am learning is that I look for a relationship where I can resolve issues in my past. Well, if I do that, is it not fair that a man do this too?
There are no givens anymore in relationships. Both my sister and I are economically in way better spaces than our mates. I have the option of demanding my SO keep up appearances in order that my ego not be damaged, or I can change my own expectations.
Well. Your SO does not appear to meet the ideal you had in mind. You picked him. Why? Was it only pathology on your part? Only deception on his? Or was there something more?
I see this as a universal of human behavior. Everybody has a persona, an image of themselves that they both present to others, and to themselves. This persona is a coherent picture imposed on a real self that is fluid and chaotic,anything but coherent. When stuff comes to the fore, to consciousness, that is inconsistent with our picture of who we are and who we want others to believe we are--we can choose to project responsibility onto the other, or to accept the painful and incongruent picture of ourselves that has emerged.
At best, it is usually a compromise--I will take a part, but part of it is you too. In good and lasting relationships, each person is willing to do this work honorably, accepting a piece of the responsibility but in my experience there is always some defensiveness while we try to deflect responsibility so as to protect our idealized sense of self.
The best we can do is to hope for, in the light of day, some kind of safe zone of negotiation during which we can analyze what happened and decide just what happened and its meaning. We can either modify our opinion of the other, or our sense of who we are. It sounds as if this is what is happening now, Pigless.
I think this is exactly so, Cedar, except I think that both people in the relationship are (hopefully) doing it, and the us refers to each of them. This kind of appraisal, to my way of thinking is the optimal process. Not all me. Not all you. What piece of this is me? What piece of this is you? What can I live with? What not? And being able to sustain the relationship while during this process. An elasticity (and safety) sufficient to hold together.
Which is exactly what pigless is doing.
Relationships between older people cannot be other than this. There is so much water under the bridge. So much damage already done. So much "me" already institutionalized. So little give, sometimes, but so much want and need. How could it not be fraught?
M and I were talking this morning about investment decisions which very much center on our security and on my son's when I die. A whole lot hinges upon how competent my son is when I die, to handle our assets.
So I said something like this: Well, I think SON is maturing and changing. Slowly, but it is happening.
So M replied: Well, he is. I am trying to teach him but you have to too. A lot of it depends upon you. For him to change, you have to change, because he will learn these things he needs from your example. Disorganization, the lack of serious commitment, a lack of self-control--he learned from you. You have to change these things for him to get better.
For five seconds I thought to myself, why does he love me if I am so flawed? And before I could think it I remembered, because he does. He loves me. There is no questioning why or how come.
We decide these things as we go.
That is what Cedar and her D H already know after forty something years together. Because they stayed. They kept crossing the bridge back to each other, no matter what, because of countless decisions to do so--not because they were or were not flawed, each of them.
They decided each time there was a schism that they wanted to stay not because the other was perfect or imperfect, but because that was what they decided to do. I am here, because I decided to be here. Not for any other reason. The problems are only the beginning. After that there is choice.
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BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I kind of agree with Cop a here. People often do not ride out the bumps because it is easier to leave. The young are the worst. I have heard,
"If this doesn't work out we can just get a divorce." Not much of a commitment there. But older adults get out too fast too.
I have been married twice long term and never wanted to divorce, yet I did. First hubby simply was quite mean at times, financially abusive (would leave me with no money at all and in my younger, naive years with him I handed him my paycheck like a big fool.) I married him at an immature twenty. But in some ways, I think I had the idea more than him and he was seven years older.
I wanted to talk or go for counseling. I did love him. He refused. Everything.
I suffered at the time from unsatisfactory treatment for suicidal depression and he and his mean words made me worse. One can not work on the tough stuff alone. I gave up. Seventeen years later I finally realized it was never going to change. I couldn't control his attitude towards how to fix things. He never believed I'd leave. In a way, neither did I!
Since then he and I have had long talks about what we both did wrong and get along well now. My kids who are his and mine appreciate this.
Marriage #2 was different from the start. A kind man with a caring heart who can and still does sometimes seem fake gruff came into my life when I wasn't sure I'd trust a man again. He earned my trust.bumpy roads were rode and worked out. We raised two great kids who both greatly benefited from our obvious love. His anger is different from first husbands anger. We all get angry, but first hub said mean things in anger and was never sorry. I'm not sure he was even aware. My second, keeper husband doesn't like getting angry and apologises as do I to him
An angry husband can be dangerous to the entire family.
If one partner is unwilling to work very hard on an issue like anger, the relationship will never improve
Cop a, you have a gem in M. He will so work with you. You are both very lucky to have found one another. You two are a good example to your son, whether he expresses it or not.
Unfortunately, it takes two to work through the storms and not all people will do it. To me, anger is a valid reason to say good bye. Not saying don't try, but if you did and the other won't, in my opinion it is not a bad idea to call it quits. We all deserve respect from our partners. Never again would I accept an angry man in my life.
Just my wandering thoughts...have a peaceful night.
"If this doesn't work out we can just get a divorce." Not much of a commitment there. But older adults get out too fast too.
I have been married twice long term and never wanted to divorce, yet I did. First hubby simply was quite mean at times, financially abusive (would leave me with no money at all and in my younger, naive years with him I handed him my paycheck like a big fool.) I married him at an immature twenty. But in some ways, I think I had the idea more than him and he was seven years older.
I wanted to talk or go for counseling. I did love him. He refused. Everything.
I suffered at the time from unsatisfactory treatment for suicidal depression and he and his mean words made me worse. One can not work on the tough stuff alone. I gave up. Seventeen years later I finally realized it was never going to change. I couldn't control his attitude towards how to fix things. He never believed I'd leave. In a way, neither did I!
Since then he and I have had long talks about what we both did wrong and get along well now. My kids who are his and mine appreciate this.
Marriage #2 was different from the start. A kind man with a caring heart who can and still does sometimes seem fake gruff came into my life when I wasn't sure I'd trust a man again. He earned my trust.bumpy roads were rode and worked out. We raised two great kids who both greatly benefited from our obvious love. His anger is different from first husbands anger. We all get angry, but first hub said mean things in anger and was never sorry. I'm not sure he was even aware. My second, keeper husband doesn't like getting angry and apologises as do I to him
An angry husband can be dangerous to the entire family.
If one partner is unwilling to work very hard on an issue like anger, the relationship will never improve
Cop a, you have a gem in M. He will so work with you. You are both very lucky to have found one another. You two are a good example to your son, whether he expresses it or not.
Unfortunately, it takes two to work through the storms and not all people will do it. To me, anger is a valid reason to say good bye. Not saying don't try, but if you did and the other won't, in my opinion it is not a bad idea to call it quits. We all deserve respect from our partners. Never again would I accept an angry man in my life.
Just my wandering thoughts...have a peaceful night.
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Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Thank you, SWOT. You remember, I know, that sometimes I have had my doubts. Still, sometimes I do, just not as much.
I am beginning to think this is healthy, because how great would any relationship be if it was frozen into some kind of solid, yes, like a block of mixed vegetables. Do not we want some movement, possibility, and even, doubt, so that we can reaffirm our yes? Is not the possibility of no, necessary for there to be a very strong yes?
I do not think it is simple to know to stay or leave. We may not see at the time that leaving is not necessarily better. It can be but not always.
By the way, Pigless, if your husband is quite depressed, it may not be easy for him to talk about it.
M had to endure me in bed for 2 years following the death of my mother. I would not even eat meals out of bed. Now almost 3 years after, I am still hobbling. I may never regain my former self. I doubt I will. It could be that M stays with me for ulterior motives or secondary gain, but it may be he is committed.
Pigless, M gets angry too, but does not hold onto it. But oh my, it is unpleasant when he is angry. Cold, sarcastic, smouldering fury.
We take those we love as they are or not at all. If they change it will be when they can, or not at all.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Cop a, you are very welcome and I am serious. Don't doubt. He is not perfect because nobody is, but you two work so well together. And I do think our children watch, even if they don't say so. M. Has been wonderful to your son. That's important too.
Have a peaceful night. I am pleased that your son is progressing. And that you no w have your family together. If you are like me, this makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. We don't have many people, you and I, but it's the quality, not the quantity in my opinion.
Sweet dreams
Have a peaceful night. I am pleased that your son is progressing. And that you no w have your family together. If you are like me, this makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. We don't have many people, you and I, but it's the quality, not the quantity in my opinion.
Sweet dreams
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Thank you SWOT. He has been wonderful to my son. And I believe my son sees this. But M is difficult. He is demanding and a perfectionist. I think it is good that my son see that M does it to me too.
I am the only cook, and it has been a struggle to prepare meals being gone 12 hours a day working. So tonight I made the best roast chicken, just delicious--crispy, moist, with herbs and garlic. First M found two strands of my hair. I braid it so I do try to keep it under control. He counts them (the hairs) like he will get a bounty. And he announces each one he discovers (while holding it up in the air like a mouse by the tail) as if trumpets should sound. Then--crime upon crime, the roasted tomatoes? Entirely too, too salty (just how salty went on 3 minutes). So I pointed out to my son. See, he does it to me, too.
After the meal which M scarfed down, I said, too bad the food was so foul. M thought this was funny. I didn't.
I do and sometimes I can't believe my good fortune. Who would have guessed it a year ago? Thank you SWOT.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Two strands of hair...lol. 
Well, if he scarfed it down...
Everyone has some traits that we have to deal with...I think he sounds pretty special anyway.
A lot can change in a year. I could feel how you mourned your son. In your two cases it might be best for both if he sticks around for a while. I think he wants to be there and I know you want him there. It is cool that he s helping to fix up his own house. I like it.
I'm glad things are going so well!!!
Well, if he scarfed it down...
Everyone has some traits that we have to deal with...I think he sounds pretty special anyway.
A lot can change in a year. I could feel how you mourned your son. In your two cases it might be best for both if he sticks around for a while. I think he wants to be there and I know you want him there. It is cool that he s helping to fix up his own house. I like it.
I'm glad things are going so well!!!
Lil
Well-Known Member
I get it, Copa. I really do.
Just the kind of thing Hubby would do.
Wow. Jabber would be cooking all the meals from that moment on. Period.
You ladies are a whole lot more forgiving of your men than I am.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
My husband is great about cleaning, but frankly I would be eat his cooking!
Scent of Cedar *
Well-Known Member
I think pigless deciding to stand up for herself and her children, and for their rights to security and joy in their lives, is the thing that will transform the relationship with S.O. Each of us does need to take responsibility for choosing and holding on to and refusing to accept less than, a guiding imagery of how we want our lives to feel.
And when we are parents, of how we want our childrens' lives to feel, to them.
And it feels scary to demand more sometimes, but if we do not do that, we will compromise until we lose respect for one another, and lose the relationship altogether.
Remember that Tom Petty song about not living like a refugee, but that we have to fight to be free? It's very like that, I think.
We have been using clumping litter, KTMom. The litter box never has to be changed, again. Someone (me) needs to scoop the litter box every day, but that is it. You just keep adding new litter. No odor, ever.
When D H complains about not being appreciated? I pretend I am playing a miniature air violin. Just with my fingers, like it is so tiny.
He hates that.
:O)
Cedar
And when we are parents, of how we want our childrens' lives to feel, to them.
And it feels scary to demand more sometimes, but if we do not do that, we will compromise until we lose respect for one another, and lose the relationship altogether.
Remember that Tom Petty song about not living like a refugee, but that we have to fight to be free? It's very like that, I think.
We have been using clumping litter, KTMom. The litter box never has to be changed, again. Someone (me) needs to scoop the litter box every day, but that is it. You just keep adding new litter. No odor, ever.
When D H complains about not being appreciated? I pretend I am playing a miniature air violin. Just with my fingers, like it is so tiny.
He hates that.
:O)
Cedar
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Actually, the litterpans need to be completely changed monthly. At that time, they should be cleaned and sanitized. Allow them to dry and fill with new, clean litter.
GN (too much experience with litter boxes)
GN (too much experience with litter boxes)
Lil
Well-Known Member
Meh. Mine's lucky Jabber changes it. I don't clean and sanitize my own toilet more than about every six months. (They're my germs and I'll keep them if I like!
)I told y'all I'm a terrible housekeeper.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
I clean my toilet DAILY, not because I'm a psycho, but because Thomas the cat drinks out of it, and leaving the lid down isn't a deterrent.
AppleCori
Well-Known Member
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Lil
Well-Known Member
That would be different.
I had a cat that refused to drink from water bowls - or anywhere except the toilet. Literally, he'd beg and beg and go without or just spill a dish. I finally stopped cleaning with anything too chemical and left the toilet lids up.
I also cleaned them MUCH more often.
With my current cat, we are a lid-down house.
