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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 691777" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Pigless, I am sorry I missed this crisis and your thread. It seems like things have quieted down and with that has come some perspective about where you are, each of you, and together.</p><p></p><p>My take is different than some of the others. I believe that having problems emerge is the basis for their resolution. Having impossible things about us, emerge into the light, is a given. The question in any relationship is the commitment to resolution. By both people. Problems can be the reason to end a relationship or the beginning to strengthen it by resolving or learning to accept what is our lifeblood: difference and the longing to overcome it through intimacy.OK. So this is good. Now you know. It is on the table.</p><p>I am like you, Pigless. I have spent my life overcoming limitations and losses and aspiring to have more. Relationships were sacrificed or were not the priority.</p><p>Well. I see this differently. He did summon up the courage by telling you 3/4 time through the counseling. Better late than never. Joke.</p><p></p><p>One thing I am learning is that men have the same longing for care, safety, protection as do women, even though their social roles do not specifically prioritize these things.</p><p></p><p>The other thing I am learning is that I look for a relationship where I can resolve issues in my past. Well, if I do that, is it not fair that a man do this too?</p><p></p><p>There are no givens anymore in relationships. Both my sister and I are economically in way better spaces than our mates. I have the option of demanding my SO keep up appearances in order that my ego not be damaged, or I can change my own expectations.</p><p></p><p>Well. Your SO does not appear to meet the ideal you had in mind. You picked him. Why? Was it only pathology on your part? Only deception on his? Or was there something more?</p><p>I see this as a universal of human behavior. Everybody has a persona, an image of themselves that they both present to others,<em> and to themselves</em>. This persona is a coherent picture imposed on a real self that is fluid and chaotic,anything but coherent. When stuff comes to the fore, to consciousness, that is inconsistent with our picture of who we are and who we want others to believe we are--we can choose to project responsibility onto the other, or to accept the painful and incongruent picture of ourselves that has emerged.</p><p></p><p>At best, it is usually a compromise--I will take a part, but part of it is you too. In good and lasting relationships, each person is willing to do this work honorably, accepting a piece of the responsibility but in my experience there is always some defensiveness while we try to deflect responsibility so as to protect our idealized sense of self.</p><p></p><p>The best we can do is to hope for, in the light of day, some kind of safe zone of negotiation during which we can analyze what happened and decide just what happened and its meaning. We can either modify our opinion of the other, or our sense of who we are. It sounds as if this is what is happening now, Pigless.</p><p>I think this is exactly so, Cedar, except I think that both people in the relationship are (hopefully) doing it, and the us refers to each of them. This kind of appraisal, to my way of thinking is the optimal process. Not all me. Not all you. What piece of this is me? What piece of this is you? What can I live with? What not? And being able to sustain the relationship while during this process. An elasticity (and safety) sufficient to hold together.</p><p>Which is exactly what pigless is doing.</p><p></p><p>Relationships between older people cannot be other than this. There is so much water under the bridge. So much damage already done. So much "me" already institutionalized. So little give, sometimes, but so much want and need. How could it not be fraught? </p><p></p><p>M and I were talking this morning about investment decisions which very much center on our security and on my son's when I die. A whole lot hinges upon how competent my son is when I die, to handle our assets.</p><p></p><p>So I said something like this: <em>Well, I think SON is maturing and changing. Slowly, but it is happening.</em></p><p></p><p>So M replied: <em>Well, he is. I am trying to teach him but you have to too. A lot of it depends upon you. For him to change, you have to change, because he will learn these things he needs from your example. Disorganization, the lack of serious commitment, a lack of self-control--he learned from you. You have to change these things for him to get better.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>For five seconds I thought to myself, why does he love me if I am so flawed? And before I could think it I remembered, because he does. He loves me. There is no questioning why or how come. </p><p></p><p>We decide these things as we go.</p><p></p><p>That is what Cedar and her D H already know after forty something years together. Because they stayed. They kept crossing the bridge back to each other, no matter what, because of countless decisions to do so--not because they were or were not flawed, each of them. </p><p></p><p>They decided each time there was a schism <em>that they wanted to stay</em> not because the other was perfect or imperfect, but because that was what they decided to do. <em>I am here, because I decided to be here. Not for any other reason. </em>The problems are only the beginning. After that there is choice.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 691777, member: 18958"] Pigless, I am sorry I missed this crisis and your thread. It seems like things have quieted down and with that has come some perspective about where you are, each of you, and together. My take is different than some of the others. I believe that having problems emerge is the basis for their resolution. Having impossible things about us, emerge into the light, is a given. The question in any relationship is the commitment to resolution. By both people. Problems can be the reason to end a relationship or the beginning to strengthen it by resolving or learning to accept what is our lifeblood: difference and the longing to overcome it through intimacy.OK. So this is good. Now you know. It is on the table. I am like you, Pigless. I have spent my life overcoming limitations and losses and aspiring to have more. Relationships were sacrificed or were not the priority. Well. I see this differently. He did summon up the courage by telling you 3/4 time through the counseling. Better late than never. Joke. One thing I am learning is that men have the same longing for care, safety, protection as do women, even though their social roles do not specifically prioritize these things. The other thing I am learning is that I look for a relationship where I can resolve issues in my past. Well, if I do that, is it not fair that a man do this too? There are no givens anymore in relationships. Both my sister and I are economically in way better spaces than our mates. I have the option of demanding my SO keep up appearances in order that my ego not be damaged, or I can change my own expectations. Well. Your SO does not appear to meet the ideal you had in mind. You picked him. Why? Was it only pathology on your part? Only deception on his? Or was there something more? I see this as a universal of human behavior. Everybody has a persona, an image of themselves that they both present to others,[I] and to themselves[/I]. This persona is a coherent picture imposed on a real self that is fluid and chaotic,anything but coherent. When stuff comes to the fore, to consciousness, that is inconsistent with our picture of who we are and who we want others to believe we are--we can choose to project responsibility onto the other, or to accept the painful and incongruent picture of ourselves that has emerged. At best, it is usually a compromise--I will take a part, but part of it is you too. In good and lasting relationships, each person is willing to do this work honorably, accepting a piece of the responsibility but in my experience there is always some defensiveness while we try to deflect responsibility so as to protect our idealized sense of self. The best we can do is to hope for, in the light of day, some kind of safe zone of negotiation during which we can analyze what happened and decide just what happened and its meaning. We can either modify our opinion of the other, or our sense of who we are. It sounds as if this is what is happening now, Pigless. I think this is exactly so, Cedar, except I think that both people in the relationship are (hopefully) doing it, and the us refers to each of them. This kind of appraisal, to my way of thinking is the optimal process. Not all me. Not all you. What piece of this is me? What piece of this is you? What can I live with? What not? And being able to sustain the relationship while during this process. An elasticity (and safety) sufficient to hold together. Which is exactly what pigless is doing. Relationships between older people cannot be other than this. There is so much water under the bridge. So much damage already done. So much "me" already institutionalized. So little give, sometimes, but so much want and need. How could it not be fraught? M and I were talking this morning about investment decisions which very much center on our security and on my son's when I die. A whole lot hinges upon how competent my son is when I die, to handle our assets. So I said something like this: [I]Well, I think SON is maturing and changing. Slowly, but it is happening.[/I] So M replied: [I]Well, he is. I am trying to teach him but you have to too. A lot of it depends upon you. For him to change, you have to change, because he will learn these things he needs from your example. Disorganization, the lack of serious commitment, a lack of self-control--he learned from you. You have to change these things for him to get better. [/I] For five seconds I thought to myself, why does he love me if I am so flawed? And before I could think it I remembered, because he does. He loves me. There is no questioning why or how come. We decide these things as we go. That is what Cedar and her D H already know after forty something years together. Because they stayed. They kept crossing the bridge back to each other, no matter what, because of countless decisions to do so--not because they were or were not flawed, each of them. They decided each time there was a schism [I]that they wanted to stay[/I] not because the other was perfect or imperfect, but because that was what they decided to do. [I]I am here, because I decided to be here. Not for any other reason. [/I]The problems are only the beginning. After that there is choice. [/QUOTE]
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