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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 206855" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Increasingly, I don't believe in ODD as a distinct diagnosis on its own, unconnected to anything except what is innate in the child.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that we don't endure what is described as ODD, but is it a specific, stand-alone diagnosis?</p><p></p><p>I am not an expert, I emphasise here, so I will get off my soapbox. But I say this to give you hope - whatever is described as ODD, from what I have observed you have a good chance of turning it around.</p><p></p><p>This also isn't about blame - if you try your best and fail to turn it around, do not bury yourself in guilt. Even if you discover you did things the wrong way - guilt will only slow you down and get in your way. if you truly want to help your child - shove guilt to the backburner and roll up your sleeves.</p><p></p><p>Your mother in law sounds like a treasure. Welcome aboard to both of you.</p><p></p><p>So now some suggestions - I wonder how you are telling her the rules. Some kids have a need to constantly test boundaries, so as soon as you define a boundary that have to see if they can surmount it. Life is a challenge, an adventure to be embarked upon with enthusiasm and energy, and rules for such people are there to be challenged. "You can't climb Mt Everest, it will never be done because you haven't got enough oxygen up there to breathe."</p><p>But they did it.</p><p>Interestingly, science fiction writer Isaac Asimov had written a short story about how alien beings lived at the top of Mt Everest and in various ways were preventing people from climbing it. Unfortunately for Asimov, the magazine that bought his story was delayed in publishing, so the story cam out a few weeks AFTER Edmund Hilary and Tenzing Norgay reached the summit of Everest. Asimov used to use this story to show what a disastrous predictor of the future he felt he was as a sci-fi writer, that he predicted Everest would never be climbed, AFTER it was achieved!</p><p></p><p>But I digress. I'm good at that. And this is another facet of what you observe in your daughter - the attention span of a gnat, unless it's something she's vitally interested in or she has a quiet place to be, somewhere she is safe and knows well, to concentrate.</p><p></p><p>Have a look at ADHD. We can't diagnose here, but that would be a good starting point. We also often recommend here that you try to arrange for a neuropsychologist appointment, to get her thoroughly assessed. That way you know what you are dealing with in terms of her capability, her intelligence, her deficit areas. Once you have some idea, then you know where and how to begin to help.</p><p></p><p>The behaviour problems - you can begin NOW. Get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It's like a bible for a lot of us. It's counter-intuitive but it gives you a different way of managing the kids, one that you might find easier and which has a chance of working.</p><p></p><p>You read the book and use what you feel right with. But go through it all and think about your daughter.</p><p></p><p>A good way to begin is to consider - she's basically a good kid who wants to please you, but who also wants to FIND OUT. </p><p></p><p>Example: I was watching my 2 year old niece at a family barbecue. Niece was standing by the garden bed (a fair bit of clay in this soil) picking up a clod of earth, carrying it to the path and dropping it. She watched as it dropped, then walked back to the garden bed, picked up another clod of earth, carried it to the cement path and dropped this one too. Over and over she did this. Her mother called her to come and have lunch but the little girl acted as if she hadn't heard. Another of my sisters said with annoyance, "She's being very naughty to ignore you, I'd smack for that."</p><p>I said, "No, I think she has made her own choice - she is so fascinated with what she is doing, watching what happens to lumps of earth when you drop them, that she has chosen to ignore, because for this minute it has less importance."</p><p>The cranky sister got angry with me for trying to read too much into the situation, a child that age doesn't think in any concrete fashion. Yeah, right. But the mother is a lot like me and saw what I meant. She held off on the smack, she went to her daughter and took her by the hand and said, "It will still be there after lunch. Come and eat now." Yes,s the child threw a mild tantrum but was able to be persuaded.</p><p></p><p>I didn't know it at the time, but I had just done something from "Explosive Child" - I had analysed why the child was doing what she was doing and had helped find a way around the apparent obstacle. You have to find a way around -if you try meeting the irresistible force with the immovable object then you will eventually get to a point where your child will have been well taught how to successfully stand her ground.</p><p></p><p>Such obstinacy can be murder, or it can be the child's salvation. it all depends on when and how the child applies that obstinacy.</p><p></p><p>A child is a telescope mirror that hasn't been polished properly. If you go at the mirror with harsh abrasives you will permanently scratch it or, heaven forbid, break it. But if you apply the grit at the right amount and the right grade at the right time, you will improve what you began with (already good raw material) into something world class.</p><p></p><p>You begin with observing the child. What rings her bells? What upsets he? WHat calms her down? Then you use these as tools to take things further. make a list of what you want to work on. Put a priority on it - A. B and C. Then go back and clean up the categories. A should only be the stuff that is vital, urgent and immediate. Dr Greene says the only things thta should be here are immediate safety, and school attendance. I've even taken school attendance out of the box because for difficult child 3, he is motivated to do his schoolwork so it's no longer an issue. The day he doesn't want to do his schoolwork is the day I take his temperature and call the doctor.</p><p></p><p>B is for the handful of things you want to work on now. They should be behaviours/problems within your child's ability (not what you THINK she should be able to do at her age - she may not be able to) and only a few things, not an overwhelming list. B things - you will push to get what you want but not at the expense of a meltdown; instead you will back off anf defuse if she begins Occupational Therapist (OT) get too upset. A bright kid especially will quickly learn that you are trying to keep her calm and will generally value this. It begins a positive feedback loop instead of the negative one you're headed towards.</p><p></p><p>C - it's the category for everything else. It's the "we're just not going there yet." And you have to stick on it, not change the rules until you've considered it carefully.</p><p></p><p>Your behaviour to her sets the pattern for her behaviour to you. SO treat her with respect FIRST, to set the example.</p><p></p><p>You could be dealing with more than ADHD, but it's a useful first hypothesis.</p><p></p><p>Keep us posted on how you get on.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 206855, member: 1991"] Increasingly, I don't believe in ODD as a distinct diagnosis on its own, unconnected to anything except what is innate in the child. That's not to say that we don't endure what is described as ODD, but is it a specific, stand-alone diagnosis? I am not an expert, I emphasise here, so I will get off my soapbox. But I say this to give you hope - whatever is described as ODD, from what I have observed you have a good chance of turning it around. This also isn't about blame - if you try your best and fail to turn it around, do not bury yourself in guilt. Even if you discover you did things the wrong way - guilt will only slow you down and get in your way. if you truly want to help your child - shove guilt to the backburner and roll up your sleeves. Your mother in law sounds like a treasure. Welcome aboard to both of you. So now some suggestions - I wonder how you are telling her the rules. Some kids have a need to constantly test boundaries, so as soon as you define a boundary that have to see if they can surmount it. Life is a challenge, an adventure to be embarked upon with enthusiasm and energy, and rules for such people are there to be challenged. "You can't climb Mt Everest, it will never be done because you haven't got enough oxygen up there to breathe." But they did it. Interestingly, science fiction writer Isaac Asimov had written a short story about how alien beings lived at the top of Mt Everest and in various ways were preventing people from climbing it. Unfortunately for Asimov, the magazine that bought his story was delayed in publishing, so the story cam out a few weeks AFTER Edmund Hilary and Tenzing Norgay reached the summit of Everest. Asimov used to use this story to show what a disastrous predictor of the future he felt he was as a sci-fi writer, that he predicted Everest would never be climbed, AFTER it was achieved! But I digress. I'm good at that. And this is another facet of what you observe in your daughter - the attention span of a gnat, unless it's something she's vitally interested in or she has a quiet place to be, somewhere she is safe and knows well, to concentrate. Have a look at ADHD. We can't diagnose here, but that would be a good starting point. We also often recommend here that you try to arrange for a neuropsychologist appointment, to get her thoroughly assessed. That way you know what you are dealing with in terms of her capability, her intelligence, her deficit areas. Once you have some idea, then you know where and how to begin to help. The behaviour problems - you can begin NOW. Get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It's like a bible for a lot of us. It's counter-intuitive but it gives you a different way of managing the kids, one that you might find easier and which has a chance of working. You read the book and use what you feel right with. But go through it all and think about your daughter. A good way to begin is to consider - she's basically a good kid who wants to please you, but who also wants to FIND OUT. Example: I was watching my 2 year old niece at a family barbecue. Niece was standing by the garden bed (a fair bit of clay in this soil) picking up a clod of earth, carrying it to the path and dropping it. She watched as it dropped, then walked back to the garden bed, picked up another clod of earth, carried it to the cement path and dropped this one too. Over and over she did this. Her mother called her to come and have lunch but the little girl acted as if she hadn't heard. Another of my sisters said with annoyance, "She's being very naughty to ignore you, I'd smack for that." I said, "No, I think she has made her own choice - she is so fascinated with what she is doing, watching what happens to lumps of earth when you drop them, that she has chosen to ignore, because for this minute it has less importance." The cranky sister got angry with me for trying to read too much into the situation, a child that age doesn't think in any concrete fashion. Yeah, right. But the mother is a lot like me and saw what I meant. She held off on the smack, she went to her daughter and took her by the hand and said, "It will still be there after lunch. Come and eat now." Yes,s the child threw a mild tantrum but was able to be persuaded. I didn't know it at the time, but I had just done something from "Explosive Child" - I had analysed why the child was doing what she was doing and had helped find a way around the apparent obstacle. You have to find a way around -if you try meeting the irresistible force with the immovable object then you will eventually get to a point where your child will have been well taught how to successfully stand her ground. Such obstinacy can be murder, or it can be the child's salvation. it all depends on when and how the child applies that obstinacy. A child is a telescope mirror that hasn't been polished properly. If you go at the mirror with harsh abrasives you will permanently scratch it or, heaven forbid, break it. But if you apply the grit at the right amount and the right grade at the right time, you will improve what you began with (already good raw material) into something world class. You begin with observing the child. What rings her bells? What upsets he? WHat calms her down? Then you use these as tools to take things further. make a list of what you want to work on. Put a priority on it - A. B and C. Then go back and clean up the categories. A should only be the stuff that is vital, urgent and immediate. Dr Greene says the only things thta should be here are immediate safety, and school attendance. I've even taken school attendance out of the box because for difficult child 3, he is motivated to do his schoolwork so it's no longer an issue. The day he doesn't want to do his schoolwork is the day I take his temperature and call the doctor. B is for the handful of things you want to work on now. They should be behaviours/problems within your child's ability (not what you THINK she should be able to do at her age - she may not be able to) and only a few things, not an overwhelming list. B things - you will push to get what you want but not at the expense of a meltdown; instead you will back off anf defuse if she begins Occupational Therapist (OT) get too upset. A bright kid especially will quickly learn that you are trying to keep her calm and will generally value this. It begins a positive feedback loop instead of the negative one you're headed towards. C - it's the category for everything else. It's the "we're just not going there yet." And you have to stick on it, not change the rules until you've considered it carefully. Your behaviour to her sets the pattern for her behaviour to you. SO treat her with respect FIRST, to set the example. You could be dealing with more than ADHD, but it's a useful first hypothesis. Keep us posted on how you get on. Marg [/QUOTE]
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