Is J gifted (and should I give up)?
- Thread starter Malika
- Start date
It is always tricky.
We strive to understand our kids - from all angles.
But... we don't want them to be "different"...
Right.
in my opinion?
The secret to a good life is to find your particular gifts and make the most of those while avoiding as much as possible those activities that run into the brick-wall of our challenges...
And there's no way to do that, without some kind of labels!
I'm a tech-head. K1 is a gear-head. K2 is academic. etc.
Lets celebrate our differences, and make use of them, rather than hiding them and trying to be like everybody else.
(but for poor J, he's in a society where being like everybody else is the most important thing in life... )
We strive to understand our kids - from all angles.
But... we don't want them to be "different"...
Right.
in my opinion?
The secret to a good life is to find your particular gifts and make the most of those while avoiding as much as possible those activities that run into the brick-wall of our challenges...
And there's no way to do that, without some kind of labels!
I'm a tech-head. K1 is a gear-head. K2 is academic. etc.
Lets celebrate our differences, and make use of them, rather than hiding them and trying to be like everybody else.
(but for poor J, he's in a society where being like everybody else is the most important thing in life... )
Malika
Well-Known Member
Well, France is not quite as bad as Japan, say, in that regard
But, yes, social conformity is certainly important here, in the main. And there is no mainstream culture of celebrating difference, as there is in the UK, for example. Tolerance is not politically correct here...It could be that J is "twice exceptional", yes (a new category for me - coming to the forum is nothing if not educational
) It would kind of make sense of why he is able to perform so well in school when all the indications are that he shouldn't be able to - his abilities allowing him to compensate for his deficencies - and also as to why his general brightness outside of school is not reflected within it, where he just seems average or even below in terms of his skills. It took him a long time to learn colours, numbers, etc... When his level of conversation, for example, is much more sophisticated sometimes than you'd expect from a five year old. Anyway, the teacher, to give her credit, seems to have sized J up fairly well and seems to say something along these lines herself.. She wouldn't be his teacher next year, though, when he moves up to the "big school". Although once again I'm fantasing/pondering about alternative schools. Honestly, i don't want school to be a drag and a penance for J, but something that he enjoys...
Malika, not every gifted child acts like the ones that MWM described. My easy child was labeled gifted in third grade and was very bright and did well in school without much effort. I wouldn't say, though, that she had a constant thirst for knowledge. She was also very athletic and enjoyed sports much more than academics. She would put in the minimal effort to make an A in every course and be happy with that.
I used to ask her why she didn't make more of an effort to make a high A in the course and she would laugh and say and A is an A is an A.
I teach high school and my honor's math classes usually have a mixture of gifted students and non-gifted students. Many times the non-gifted students make better grades than the gifted ones because they work harder. I do notice that the concepts come more naturally to the gifted students. They just "see" it.
I'm not a big fan of labeling students as gifted. My difficult child was tested every year and she always came close to the cut-off and never made it. I hated that she thought that she wasn't smart because she didn't make it into the gifted program with all of her friends. I tried to explain to her that a couple of IQ points doesn't make any difference in the big scheme of things.
Another problem with labeling a child as gifted is that people are gifted in different areas. A child may be gifted in language arts but not math and yet he/she is put into gifted math classes where they struggle. I'm all for looking for a child's strengths and then focusing on those areas instead of a general label of being gifted.
Just my two cents.
~Kathy
I used to ask her why she didn't make more of an effort to make a high A in the course and she would laugh and say and A is an A is an A.
I teach high school and my honor's math classes usually have a mixture of gifted students and non-gifted students. Many times the non-gifted students make better grades than the gifted ones because they work harder. I do notice that the concepts come more naturally to the gifted students. They just "see" it.
I'm not a big fan of labeling students as gifted. My difficult child was tested every year and she always came close to the cut-off and never made it. I hated that she thought that she wasn't smart because she didn't make it into the gifted program with all of her friends. I tried to explain to her that a couple of IQ points doesn't make any difference in the big scheme of things.
Another problem with labeling a child as gifted is that people are gifted in different areas. A child may be gifted in language arts but not math and yet he/she is put into gifted math classes where they struggle. I'm all for looking for a child's strengths and then focusing on those areas instead of a general label of being gifted.
Just my two cents.
~Kathy
Malika
Well-Known Member
Yes, personally I agree with you, Kathy. According to IQ measurement, I would in your country have been labelled "gifted" and perhaps been in a gifted programme. But I don't think the label would have helped me. I just liked learning, reading, had intellectual curiosity... and hated school! All the "study" I did was in my own time and following my own interests. If I had been called gifted, I know I would have felt like a freak, and called upon to perform, to live up to something arbitrary and artificial that I couldn't reproduce on a regular basis. Can't explain it very adequately but I'm glad to have got through unscathed and unnoticed and left to my own devices!
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Some gifted kids, like Sportsfan, try very hard NOT to act gifted. This is true.
The kids I am talking about had an insatiable thirst for knowledge, HOWEVER they did not necessarily have the interest in everything they learned in school. They had side interests that they pursued on their own. Scott taught himself (I swear) to build his own computer by age twelve. They weren't studying that in school. He got B's and C's in school due to some boredom, but his college tests were so good he could have won a scholarship. He decided to skip college...he is still wildly successful. My brother taught himself math by age two. Nobody could believe it. He ddin't read until the proper age, but could do very advanced math by third grade and if it wasn't taught in school he fiddled at home. My brother never got anything but an A in school from kindergarten to six years of college. He didn't have to study. He remembered everything he was taught, even if he wasn't all that interested (like in reading). Same with my sister's smartest twin girl. She doesn't have to study and she still gets straight A's in college. Jumpers boyfriend is not necessarily studious. He is more a sports freak. But he never has to study. In fact he is often chastised for falling asleep at school, but he still got straight A's almost every semester. He does not have one obessessive interest he studies...he just wants to achieve and is very hard on himself if he slips up. This is in sports as well as academics.
So I guess I am agreeing with Kathy. All gifted children are different. They also vary in their caring about grades, but, at least in my circle, I never knew a gifted child who didn't do at least pretty well. I'm sure some gifted k ids who are more troubled get into drugs and bad peer groups and drop out of school. There is no definite pattern that every gifted child follows. I agree!!!
The kids I am talking about had an insatiable thirst for knowledge, HOWEVER they did not necessarily have the interest in everything they learned in school. They had side interests that they pursued on their own. Scott taught himself (I swear) to build his own computer by age twelve. They weren't studying that in school. He got B's and C's in school due to some boredom, but his college tests were so good he could have won a scholarship. He decided to skip college...he is still wildly successful. My brother taught himself math by age two. Nobody could believe it. He ddin't read until the proper age, but could do very advanced math by third grade and if it wasn't taught in school he fiddled at home. My brother never got anything but an A in school from kindergarten to six years of college. He didn't have to study. He remembered everything he was taught, even if he wasn't all that interested (like in reading). Same with my sister's smartest twin girl. She doesn't have to study and she still gets straight A's in college. Jumpers boyfriend is not necessarily studious. He is more a sports freak. But he never has to study. In fact he is often chastised for falling asleep at school, but he still got straight A's almost every semester. He does not have one obessessive interest he studies...he just wants to achieve and is very hard on himself if he slips up. This is in sports as well as academics.
So I guess I am agreeing with Kathy. All gifted children are different. They also vary in their caring about grades, but, at least in my circle, I never knew a gifted child who didn't do at least pretty well. I'm sure some gifted k ids who are more troubled get into drugs and bad peer groups and drop out of school. There is no definite pattern that every gifted child follows. I agree!!!
Malika
Well-Known Member
Lol, MWM, I wasn't really saying that in my particular case I was trying not to be seen as "gifted" but rather that I was just genuinely interested in things. And to be interested in things is just that, it is not something that needs to be labelled in any way - though it is certainly not fed by most school systems, that is for sure. I always did well in exams, at least in arts subjects, and so bumped along the system until the end of university but honestly put in minimal effort and interest and just disliked the whole experience (other than being with my friends). This now makes it very hard for me to take school seriously or to perform my duty of supporting the system. I just see it as a necessary evil that the child has to go through - and I know that makes me a dyed-in-the-wool old hippie, for which I do apologise
And then there's the highly-gifted difficult child, who meets a nemisis difficult child teacher... who destroys difficult child's self worth and sends difficult child over the deep end... (yes, in real life) There can be "reasons" for gifted kids going off the rails, and one of them is... a system that doesn't allow for their needs. (this kid was in gifted programs... and the teachers were threatened by his creativity)
pepperidge
New Member
Malika,
I think that a really comprehensive neuropsychologist testing (in States good ones can take at least a full day) would give you some information about J's intellectual strengths and weaknesses. Good ones also administer the TOVA test (a test for ADHD). My sense is that if you have some information you might feel more comfortable and it might put some questions to rest a bit, if not raise new ones. I think it would at least give you some data, for what's that worth, that will feel less subjective and biased than the doctor types you have been seeing. I would imagine that somewhere in France someone must give the equivalent of what is done in the states.
I think that a really comprehensive neuropsychologist testing (in States good ones can take at least a full day) would give you some information about J's intellectual strengths and weaknesses. Good ones also administer the TOVA test (a test for ADHD). My sense is that if you have some information you might feel more comfortable and it might put some questions to rest a bit, if not raise new ones. I think it would at least give you some data, for what's that worth, that will feel less subjective and biased than the doctor types you have been seeing. I would imagine that somewhere in France someone must give the equivalent of what is done in the states.
buddy
New Member
I think it couldn't hurt to try this too. For Q who has a similar (but I suppose at his size more concerning) problem, a couple of things that he clearly is finally getting (though he could tell you about personal space, and not touching others etc....) are things like using his thinking bubble to "STOP". then count and think what to do to help try to reduce the impulse. For "space" his Occupational Therapist (OT) has been working on making sure he is his arm length away. IF his arm has to bend and he can touch someone he is too close (I have seen him put his arm out, LOL).
Direct teaching may be at least a tool to help for a percentage of the time. Or little by little it may help eventually????
I bet he is quite bright by the way, that makes sense given how deeply you say he thinks. Maybe he is a philosopher???
Malika
Well-Known Member
Yes, there would be no harm in doing this but... when I think about it, J's "problems" with some other kids don't really come down to things that can be defined and taught. It's almost as though it is his very personality that is the issue! Other kids, mostly, seem very slow and quiet in comparison with him... they watch and wait a bit before trying to join in with others, are peaceful (relatively) in their movements and talking, do not give the impression that they are centre stage. But this is J, he HAS to be centre stage much of the time, wants other kids to look at and admire him, and particularly with other boys, has to be "top dog". Of course this does not endear him to other children much of the time! I could read him books about it and talk about it but I just know, really, it comes to something he cannot change. He has had this personality since babyhood! It's not totally hopeless, he does have moments when he is calmer and quieter, particularly with girls, and can sometimes show interest in others rather than just trying to dazzle them - a few signs of hope! - but I'm not going to be able to teach him out of his base temperament. I don't think he's a bully type because he doesn't like hurting those smaller than him or animals but he IS like a bulldozer much of the time... comes crashing in and carries on regardless!
I sense... his peers are going to be the best teachers for him in getting him to try to modify his behaviour somewhat and give others space to be who THEY are.
I sense... his peers are going to be the best teachers for him in getting him to try to modify his behaviour somewhat and give others space to be who THEY are.
whatamess
New Member
Does J have any awareness that his peers appear annoyed or put off by him? Does he ever talk about disagreements with them or not being included? I think social awareness/stories would be of greatest use if the child perceived a problem, ie. "Mom, the other children are not including me in play, why?"
buddy
New Member
Probably very true. THAT is a big difference with those of us who have kids on the spectrum. They have a harder time even realizing that those social consequences are connected to their own actions. It often has to be taught point by point. The qualities he has that will probably make growing up hard, may just end up being what makes him CEO of a large corporation some day, smile.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Well, it would be nice to think that, Buddy
I think lots of kids have social issues, really, but of course it's the ones who are too loud, intense and full-on who come off the worst. I'm thinking of J's friend (most of the time, lol), who is the only other boy in his class. When you speak to him, he just stares back at you silently, looking almost hostile, as though he doesn't understand who you are or what you are saying. It is rather off-putting! I tried saying something to him this morning when I dropped J off at school and as usual he just stared at me. I said something about it to the assistant and she said, laughing "Oh, everyone says that - he stares at them as if they're from another planet!"
Well, I don't know, between being stared at non-comprehendingly and having a response like J, who would be chattering away nineteen to the dozen, I'd probably feel a bit more comfortable with the chattering... but as usual, the best is somewhere in between... But it isn't that all pcs socialise like a dream and it is only difficult children who have difficulty learning these things, I think.
I think lots of kids have social issues, really, but of course it's the ones who are too loud, intense and full-on who come off the worst. I'm thinking of J's friend (most of the time, lol), who is the only other boy in his class. When you speak to him, he just stares back at you silently, looking almost hostile, as though he doesn't understand who you are or what you are saying. It is rather off-putting! I tried saying something to him this morning when I dropped J off at school and as usual he just stared at me. I said something about it to the assistant and she said, laughing "Oh, everyone says that - he stares at them as if they're from another planet!"
Well, I don't know, between being stared at non-comprehendingly and having a response like J, who would be chattering away nineteen to the dozen, I'd probably feel a bit more comfortable with the chattering... but as usual, the best is somewhere in between... But it isn't that all pcs socialise like a dream and it is only difficult children who have difficulty learning these things, I think.
busywend
Well-Known Member
Here is my input...and I am NOT expert by any means. I think it is often the case that just like in blindness one's hearing is more in tune....when a child has one disability (say inattentiveness) something else excels. It could be a quick processing of data or super memory.
When difficult child was tested (sounds very similar) she was shown pictures and told what word those pictures represent. For example, she was shown a house and told that picture represented the word flower, shown a car and told that was a horse. OK. So, this went on for an hour. It was a flip book. Each time she got through a sentence, he showed her more pictures that represented new words and the story continued. I can tell you I was COMPLETELY LOST after 3 flips of the book. She did about 30 pages. Gifted? Probably not, but certainly strong in that memory, processing thing. I was sitting there with my mouth hanging open.
So, to me alternative school is the BEST possible way to gather these strengths and turn them into support for the weaknesses. I tried like heck to find something like that here. Nothing. I begged the school to find something alternative. I just knew working hands on would have been her thing. As I understand it there is something local now....sigh....if only she were born later.
When difficult child was tested (sounds very similar) she was shown pictures and told what word those pictures represent. For example, she was shown a house and told that picture represented the word flower, shown a car and told that was a horse. OK. So, this went on for an hour. It was a flip book. Each time she got through a sentence, he showed her more pictures that represented new words and the story continued. I can tell you I was COMPLETELY LOST after 3 flips of the book. She did about 30 pages. Gifted? Probably not, but certainly strong in that memory, processing thing. I was sitting there with my mouth hanging open.
So, to me alternative school is the BEST possible way to gather these strengths and turn them into support for the weaknesses. I tried like heck to find something like that here. Nothing. I begged the school to find something alternative. I just knew working hands on would have been her thing. As I understand it there is something local now....sigh....if only she were born later.
