J does not accept no

[Malika]

Thanks, MWM. A woman after my own heart Disorganised People of the World Unite!
Realistically, I'm not going to change. I know it's very disappointing. I confess I really do not see the connection between routine and being respectful to elders, playing well with others, etc. I honestly believe living life with rigid structures would make one less likely to play well with others but, hey, I don't know any more than I suppose any of us do. I have the structure that seems important - no TV during week, early bedtime, etc - and other than that I am just not going to have some kind of timetabled existence.
Add me to the lawsuit against MWM.

 

[SuZir]

Malika, you already have stricter structure than most people. What we are trying to say is, that writing it down, or even more so, putting it to pictures for J to see, could make things easier for both of you.

J is six, that basically means you are likely to do same things every day. He wakes up at morning, brushes his teeth, eats something, either goes to school or play or has some activity. Soon it is lunch and so on. Then you have weekly routines. You go buy groceries, take pup for the longer walks, J has his hobbies, maybe he goes to play with friends etc. Making a timetable that consists of those daily or weekly 'modules' so to say, doesn't mean you have to live by the clock. But to be honest, every morning you already know what kind of things you are going to do. Is it a school day? Do you need to go buy groceries or does J has some activity? Is it nice weather and you feel it would be nice to have a long walk? Then just add pictures of those things to the timetable for that day in order they will happen. And for empty places just add J's choices or Mom's choices, or calm play or rough play etc.

I assume you already are feeding J several times a day. Most likely somewhat same time every day (meaning, you have probably mostly not having a lunch 5 p. m. or evening snack at 2 p. m., not that you would always have dinner 5.45 p.m. sharp every day and in any situation.) Just adding meal times in right order does make you a skeleton for a schedule. Add school and some activities that are always in the same time, rest can almost be filled with playtime for J. It doesn't have to be any more organized than that. But J actually seeing the timetable will help him to transfer from one thing to next.

 

[Malika]

Thanks, SuZir. Forgive me for seeming so awkward, or so slow, but I don't get how drawing pictures of what we do will help? I sense - could be wrong but am fairly sure - that J would say such a thing is "for babies".

 

[BusynMember]

It doesn't. It can help you in your home. But in the big picture, the world does not structure itself for our kids and they have to learn to deal with life on it's terms. Our home is not a residential treatment center, it's a home. And dare I say the times my kids, including difficult child's, did not go to sleep at EXACTLY the same time every night or had their meals later or earlier, it still didn't scar their development nor help it. But all three of my difficult children (35, Sonic and Julie) have done FAR better than I expected or anyone expected. None are disorganized like me either. And once kids get to be teens it is pretty hard to keep them rigidly on schedule. Most likely, they will rebel against extremes.

So if you and I are a little more lax, because it is our personality, I really can't see it hurting our kids. My #1 reason is that the world will not conform to their rigidity and they MUST get used to an inflexible world. Sonic has done that superbly! This is just my opinion, and as you see (gulp), most posters don't agree with me, but I think that if it's not your nature to have an uber-exact schedule, it won't hurt J. Now if you keep him awake until midnight, yes. If you skip meals, sure. If you act erratically, yes. But if you put him to bed between 7:30 and 9:00 depending, I just don't see it as a huge issue. Unless YOU notice it as one, it probably isn't one. See what is necessary for J. Not all difficult child's are the same.

I am really a believer that our kids have to learn to deal in the world as it is. Not that I was disorganized on purpose. I'm STILL disorganized because I am not an organized person. My poor dogs!!!

 

[SuZir]

Malika, even if J would be most neurotypical child in the planet, at age of six, his understanding of time is limited. While you have that basic structure of your day organized in your head, know how long J can for example play before school at home or when you have to leave to be in time for some activity, J doesn't. He is still young enough to live in moment. And being a bit different, it will likely take him bit longer and more work to get that understanding. Shoot, it is not untypical with adults with ADHD to have lots of difficulties with that. So from J's point of view, you are just always 'bossying him around for no reason' by telling to hurry, that you have to leave now, that J can't do this or that, because you would be late or dinner is almost ready.

Having that schedule for J to see would help him to understand better the structure of your day. To see, that for example this day you eat right after he comes from school and after that you go to activity X and he can't start an elaborate play after you have eaten and expect to be able to finish before you have to leave. It can help him understand the time better and organize his own thinking and help him learn time management skills. It can also take unnecessary tension out of your life. Also some things you have told about J suggest that some of his difficult behaviours can be partly caused by anxiety. One big help for anxiety is to know, what happens next. And even though you know and likely also tell J, it doesn't mean he does know. Schedule he can see would help in that. MWM is right that there is not schedule in real world and that is why everyone has to be able to create their own and keep it. if you are not able to keep schedules you better be darn good in what you do, to be able to feed yourself.

As buddy and others have already written using it smartly can also help you teach J to make choices, lessen conflicts and help him be more flexible with schedule changes.

If J would think pictures too childish, you can do it in writing. But would he really, if you sold it to him well? Used photos and would let him take them for example. That could be interesting by the way. You would see how he sees school, or dinnertime or brushing teeth. His perspective is likely not only literally different.

 

[InsaneCdn]

In defence of schedules:

For some of us... living a "timetabled existance" isn't an option... it is literally life-and-death.
There is so LITTLE structure out there (even school is chaos... at least, here it is), that difficult child is beyond coping, and home is his "safe" place, the "predictable" place. So, we can't go throwing chaos at him HERE, on top of what he is dealing with in the rest of the world. We can't turn school into structure... he will learn to deal with the lack of structure, there - hopefully, with some help from various resources including us. HOME? predictable. boring. K2 says we live a "beige life"... and yes, it's tough on the rest of us, sometimes. But... having done the extreme structure thing for many years? We are NOW beginning to add in some (small) adjustments, some flexibility, and difficult child is able to cope with that.

You HAVE to go with what works. I'm not a structure lover either. Everything in me would rather just live in the moment. Thank goodness husband can crack the whip... we're all doing MUCH better.

NOT saying that J needs extreme structure. Just that you can't necessarily expect J to adapt to what your preferred lifestyle is... it may or may not work.

And because J is learning to read, you can use a combo of pictures and words for your schedule... like a grade 1 picture book. Again... you go with what works. The rest is just... theory.

 

[Malika]

Okay, well I tell you what - once I am clear of this current work project, I'll put something together in terms of pictures and see how it goes! Give it a try and then I'll know whether it might work or not. Might as well try, eh?

 

[Ktllc]

Malika, just try it. You could be amazed how it helps. I have seen it in both V and Sweet Pea. It helps them A LOT. I don't do the schedule for everything and every day. But for the times that I know will be challenging: any outing that involve longer drive time and several stops for V, transition from daycare to home for Sweet Pea.
Slowly, you build you repertoire of pictures and get to know when the child needs or not.
Maybe, start real small: is there one event that always get J upset. Let's say it is coming home after his skating lesson. Then you want to do a schedule for this specific transition>
first picture: J is skating. 2nd: take skates off and put shoes on. 3rd: in the car. 4th: picture of your house. 5th: dinner (or whatever he is supposed to do when coming home). Clip those pictures in sequence on a big yellow enveloppe. Have him put the pictures in the enveloppe as the events happen.
In the event J has a negative comment about it, you can have an answer ready "I know lots of kids who use it and it helps everyone stay happy", "J, it's like a treasure map, you think there will be something special waiting for you at the dinner table?" (I would keep the treat real small: little desert, a 50cent toy... or a card giving permission to a favorite activity).
It just blows my mind when I see the results of such a simple accomodation (simple once you've printed the pictures! lol although I have a printer with wifi: click print on my iphone and the pictures comes out of the printer, pretty cool).

 

[DammitJanet]

I dont know how we got from No to written structures....but okay..lol. I am also a disorganized mess at home. Oddly enough when I was working I was organized as all get out. Wish it transferred over.

Cory is me organized one too. Maybe he got it from being in all those group homes. Who knows. He wasnt as a kid though. None of mine were.

I did have that very loose schedule of up in the morning at roughly the same time because no one slept past 6am. They wouldnt let us. I did find if I kept them busy we had less problems. And if they went to bed early it was better.

 

[InsaneCdn]

We got from "no" to "schedules" because... for some of our kids, the extreme reaction to "no" is really just a sign of overload from chaos... and schedules address (to some degree) the source of the problem.

 

[Malika]

Something I watched or read yesterday (can't remember, I saw quite a lot of ADHD-related things!) spoke about oppositionality, or ODD, being something that arose as a psychological defence against being criticised and scolded all the time. That makes sense to me.

 

[InsaneCdn]

ODD as self-defence? Makes sense to me too. A "secondary diagnosis" like the anxiety and depression that our kids often face, too. The more we can create success for our difficult child, the less oppositional he is...