Just a bunch of questions this morning....paternity and child support

[donna723]

When my kids were born in Florida, the law there was that any child born to a married woman is considered to be the legal child of the husband. That was a long time ago but I'm assuming it's the same now. Even if they divorce before the child was born, as long as it was CONCEIVED during the marriage, it's still his legally and he's liable for child support. Even if they were separated and haven't seen each other in ten years, if she has a baby while they're still legally married, it's HIS!

And then there's good ol' "backwoods justice". My brother ended up paying child support for six years for a child that wasn't his! The judge said, "Well, SOMEBODY needs to support this boy! His first wife had a year old boy before she ever met and married my brother. He raised the boy as his own till he was twelve, they divorced, and she moved back to Florida. The boys bio dad had never paid a dime in support for him, never even saw him. My brother didn't protest because he felt a moral obligation to the child and he paid every month. It wouldn't have done any good anyway. It may not have been legal, but that's what they did.

 

[DammitJanet]

That was the law in SC in the 80's. I assume it hasnt changed. Thats why my middle son has my ex husband's name on his BC. However difficult child didnt have to have his name on it because I was divorced at the time I gave birth. We all got a huge laugh in the courtroom when the judge asked me if my upcoming baby could possibly be my ex husbands. I told him that couldnt be possible since I hadnt seen him in 4 years and if he lived in FL, he would have to have a very long penis!

 

[Signorina]

The whole point of legal marriage is to confer legitimacy. The definition if marriage has expanded over the years but basically that's it.

As far as punishing women for getting pregnant on purpose by making the child her sole financial responsibility? Are you punishing the woman? Face it- you're punishing the CHILD. An innocent child who deserves two parents and shouldn't be used as a pawn in punishment of ANYONE. In every case, the child's rights far supersede the circumstances of his or her birth or conception. And we can talk all we want about male rape & wanton woman trickery but the number of neglectful deadbeat dads saddling mothers with full responsibility for children far outnumbers the reverse. 80% of single parents are single mothers. And single mothers have the highest rate of poverty in the US.

I work in an area where men father children with multiple, teenage baby mommas. We've watched polished, smart & promising young women become HS dropouts & mothers of 2 or more before age 19. We hire great seeming young men who quit the moment their child support garnishment order finds them at our business. I've had baby mommas call me begging for a portion of the dad's check or to be placed on our insurance as his dependent, even those who for 401k or life insurance proceeds when he died. (I can't do any with-o a court order or a marriage certificate .)

As for looks? NONE of my kids look a smidge like me. Two have blue eyes and neither h not I have blue eyes & my sole relative with blue eyes was 1 great grandma. (My parents, grandparents and 7/8 great gps were brown eyed!) All 3 were blond toddlers- pc16 was a platinum blonde until 8. My hair is nearly black. And they don't look like each other! PC16 has perfect textured, slightly curly hair, PC19 has super thick, wavy but coarse hair, difficult child has super straight baby fine & thin hair. difficult child is olive & tans super dark, PC19 is pink & burns always, PC16 is fair but eventually tans. PC16 is his dad's clone, PC19 looks exactly like my cousins on my moms side and difficult child is combo of my dad and H's dad. People remark upon my kids total lack of any resemblance to me. So, you just never know!!

 

[AnnieO]

Sig... I understand the "deadbeat dad" stereotype but... There are plenty of deadbeat mothers, too. And unfortunately I have met a lot of dads who ache to see their children but are not allowed... Some are great guys but the mothers use the children as pawns. It happens a lot more often than anyone will admit. Sure, there are guys who need to face the consequences... But what about the women?

 

[Signorina]

A child should never be a consequence and deserves to be supported regardless of the circumstances of his or her birth. ANY deadbeat parent should face consequences; regardless of gender. And while I agree that a a rapist should be stripped of all parental rights or claim regardless of gender - the idea that a woman who tricks a man into parenthood should have her child bear the burden to punish the mother is immoral & unconscionable. Single motherhood is the greatest common factor in childhood poverty and lack of food security.

 

[AnnieO]

Yes - but if a woman tricks a man into parenthood... Why should she be allowed to raise the child, then?

 

[InsaneCdn]

Yes - but if a woman tricks a man into parenthood... Why should she be allowed to raise the child, then?

THAT is a whole different discussion!
Child being a pawn is... criminal all the way around.

 

[SuZir]

I think it is absurd man can be held responsible of the child that has been born from a crime committed against a man (or boy.) Molestation, rape etc. should be a reason for not having any responsibilities towards a child maybe resulting on those. Even though I'm usually for child's rights, but it simply wouldn't be reasonable that for example a boy would be molested and when he grows adult, he would face huge child support debts to the person who molested him.

But other than that, if a man doesn't want to be a dad, he better take care of contraception - and understand also that may fail. I have pressed it to my sons that every time they have sex, they take a risk of becoming a father. They can limit a risk by using condoms and being careful with them. And if they are in committed relationship, it is reasonable to trust your spouse with other contraceptive methods you have decided to use together. But still there is always a risk and big thing is to consider with whom to open the zipper.

When it comes to legal paternity of a husband, well that is kind of the original purpose of the marriage. The legal verification of paternity, through the ages biological and legal and social paternity have not always meant the same and remarkable percentage of people are not biological children of their dads. I really don't see a change in that either in future. Many dads don't know they are not biological fathers, some suspect and some do know, but I very much doubt that married couples would be too enthusiast if government would start to demand paternity tests for their kids (and I doubt neither governments or people themselves would want to pay the bill.)

 

[witzend]

I'm thinking that the laws about paternity which name the husband as father no matter what are a throw back to the days when sex outside of marriage was a mortal sin. They couldn't have illegitimate children running around embarrassing people.

In OR, even way back when, you didn't have to name the daddy, but if you wanted any support from the government you did, and if a man was named as father either he had to sign it to agree, or contest it and prove he wasn't. Cumbersome, but it's much more fair than "If you married her, it's yours".

 

[witzend]

But other than that, if a man doesn't want to be a dad, he better take care of contraception - and understand also that may fail. I have pressed it to my sons that every time they have sex, they take a risk of becoming a father.... But still there is always a risk and big thing is to consider with whom to open the zipper.

That being said, men who never want children should get themselves snipped.

When it comes to legal paternity of a husband, well that is kind of the original purpose of the marriage. The legal verification of paternity, through the ages biological and legal and social paternity have not always meant the same and remarkable percentage of people are not biological children of their dads...

Interesting side note here - in the Jewish faith (and others, I'm sure) lineage follows the mother. A baby is not consider Jewish unless it's mother is Jewish, and then of course there are religious rites that must be performed. If she's not Jewish and she wants a Jewish baby, she must convert to Judaism (not an easy task) before the baby is born.

 

[BusynMember]

A child should never be a consequence and deserves to be supported regardless of the circumstances of his or her birth. ANY deadbeat parent should face consequences; regardless of gender. And while I agree that a a rapist should be stripped of all parental rights or claim regardless of gender - the idea that a woman who tricks a man into parenthood should have her child bear the burden to punish the mother is immoral & unconscionable. Single motherhood is the greatest common factor in childhood poverty and lack of food security.

A convicted rapist will not be allowed to see his child. He'll be in jail. As for non-criminal fathers, they do have to pay child support. You get into a lot of trouble for not paying child support. Lots of men are in jail because of it. Fewer women are forced to pay child support, but the trend is changing a little bit.

A man can not get 100% tricked into having a baby. Come on now. Unless the man is mentally challenged, he knows that when he does the deed he could make a baby and that some women will lie and say "I'm on the Pill!" This is no different than when a man says, "I had a Vasectomy!" and he really didn't. It's a common issue and it all boils down to both people not being careful about who they have sex with. Also, if a man wants to see his child, all he has to do is take the lady to court and he will get to see his child on a regular basis. If he doesn't do it, it is like saying he doesn't want to see his child because no court will deny a decent man from seeing his child. Some men choose not to go to court. Under those conditions, nothing can legally be done to force visitation.


As I said earlier, I don't think we have enough jail space in this world to punish men or women who lie about the circumstances of their child's conception. "I'm on the Pill!" "I'm sterile!" "I tied my tubes." "I was snipped." in my opinion there shouldn't be any punishment for one or the other being devious and the partner being too trusting or not smart. Our country can't afford it.

The issue of who supports the baby is not related to whether or not there was trickery involved in the child's conception. The child is here. A father is usually named and a DNA test can prove if the man is the father. If the man is not the DNA father and wants nothing to do with the child, he should get out of the picture entirely and let the father claim his child, be the father, and the father or mother, whoever makes more, should pay child support. These are not both the same issue. They are separate ones.

in my opinion too many people have sex without thinking these days and the children pay the price every time. I am concerned about those children....the adults involved, not so much. Adults can take care of themselves. As for what is fair and not fair, when life becomes fair, let me know. As long as I've been alive, it has not been.

 

[BusynMember]

Sig... I understand the "deadbeat dad" stereotype but... There are plenty of deadbeat mothers, too. And unfortunately I have met a lot of dads who ache to see their children but are not allowed... Some are great guys but the mothers use the children as pawns. It happens a lot more often than anyone will admit. Sure, there are guys who need to face the consequences... But what about the women?

Cuiously, under what circumstances are they not allowed to see their children? Is there a court order against it? If so, what did they do? If the mother is just not letting them see t he child, why not fight her in court, even if you have to do it pro se?

Some men live far away from their kids when they can move closer. Some just won't fight. But the court will not deny a father the right to see his child. There has to be a story behind the men who don't see their kids. Nobody could keep 35 from his son. He would take his ex to court and be granted his rights and SHE would be in trouble. I've been studying this closely since the custody battle has started

 

[AnnieO]

Cuiously, under what circumstances are they not allowed to see their children? Is there a court order against it? If so, what did they do? If the mother is just not letting them see t he child, why not fight her in court, even if you have to do it pro se?

Some men live far away from their kids when they can move closer. Some just won't fight. But the court will not deny a father the right to see his child. There has to be a story behind the men who don't see their kids. Nobody could keep 35 from his son. He would take his ex to court and be granted his rights and SHE would be in trouble. I've been studying this closely since the custody battle has started

Err. Well, to be honest... Biomom refused to let husband see the two... He filed for contempt... The judge dismissed it... Kept happening... Judge said it was because he wasn't paying support... But he was, and was caught up... Judge tripled support and backdated it 6 months... Eventually husband got custody, bio brought son back late and husband was jailed for denying her parenting time.

There is a joke out there that says "pro se is Latin for you lose". There are a lot of mothers who withhold visitation as a game to exact revenge. There are a lot of fathers who have just flat given up. husband would never, and I wouldn't either - but some do. And there ARE those fathers who made the term "deadbeat dad" such a stereotype. There are fathers who should not have rights to their children.

I would never believe what I have just written... But I lived through it.


PS... husband only got custody after the abuse came to light... And we got a new judge.

 

[BusynMember]

Oh, I know women withhold kids, but they can't if the men pay them through the court system. My son's ex wanted him to just pay her, but then there would be no record. If my son had to bring the cops to the door to get his child on his court ordered visitation day, he'd do it. He isn't perfect, but nothing will ever keep him from his son.

Of course, there are goofball judges and not all fathers know that it's best to pay through the court system so that there is a record of payment. However, even if a man is behind in his payments, he is still supposed to be able to see his child. They are seen as two different issues. Of course, if he is court ordered to pay and won't pay, jail can get in the way of that...lol. My son has hooked up with a slew of men who are determined to get 50/50 custody so they help each other know what the right and wrong things are to do. And it's definitely almost a must to have a lawyer if you have a very contentious ex. 35 is very lucky. His dad is paying his fees and he has paid close to $50K to date and his ex, as much as she'd like to make a brand new family with her, my grandson and her honey, is afraid to deny him visitation as much as she's like to wipe my son out of my grandson's life. The fact is, my grandson likes going to his dad's house more than being with Mom/boyfriend and it drives her nuts.

Some fathers try to keep kids from others too. You hear stories about men running off with kids and taking them clear to other countries. One has to wonder if these nutjob parents even care about their kids. It seems that they are more interested in punishing the ex. In my son's case, ex seems bent on punishing him, even though she was the one who ran off with another man. In the process of trying to so-called screw with my son she has screamed at grandson's daycare worker, defied the orders of grandson's Guardian Ad Litem, showed up in a rage at son's workplace (he has witnesses) and recorded phonecalls between my son and his child. Son's lawyer is very optimistic that his ex is going to royally tick off the judge on many levels.

I do not understand why parents hurt their children to get back at their ex's. Honest, when I divorced my ex, it never crossed either of our minds to harm the kids. And we got along for their sake and it was a no-brainer that if ex wanted to see the kids, he saw the kids. I scratch my head at people like your kid's bio. mom who seemed to be punishing THEM thru your husband...as well as by my son's ex. As I've often said, he is no angel, but she actually makes him seem like one, and he tries very hard to do what is right for his child. I give him THAT

 

[DammitJanet]

Actually visitation is not tied to child support and even if you arent paying you can be ordered visitation. That being said, I never said anyone should be jailed. I just think a person who tricks another into having a child they should bare the responsibility of their actions. Sure it may not be exactly fair to the child who may not have as much access to things as someone who is getting child support. I actually know a fair amount of people who dont use the child support for the purposes intended. Thats one of the reasons we - as the grandparents give things to our granddaughter because her father isnt under a child support order. He legally cannot be put under one. He gives a small amount when he can, more when he can, but that money is constantly wanted and needed when a certain type of activity is going on. I pay for gymnastics and her maternal side has never driven her there or back. Heck right now her mother gets out of work 45 minutes before the class ends and she only works about 5 minutes from the gym. She could come on that one day a week to watch her child and then take her home so I wouldnt have that drive back to take her home every night. I knew I would be doing it all going in though and dont mind it a bit. I want this for her. I also bought all her summer clothes and now almost 200 dollars in back to school clothes.

 

[AnnieO]

Oh, I know women withhold kids, but they can't if the men pay them through the court system. My son's ex wanted him to just pay her, but then there would be no record. If my son had to bring the cops to the door to get his child on his court ordered visitation day, he'd do it. He isn't perfect, but nothing will ever keep him from his son.

been there done that... If she said no, we were told it was a civil matter.

Some fathers try to keep kids from others too. You hear stories about men running off with kids and taking them clear to other countries. One has to wonder if these nutjob parents even care about their kids. It seems that they are more interested in punishing the ex. In my son's case, ex seems bent on punishing him, even though she was the one who ran off with another man. In the process of trying to so-called screw with my son she has screamed at grandson's daycare worker, defied the orders of grandson's Guardian Ad Litem, showed up in a rage at son's workplace (he has witnesses) and recorded phonecalls between my son and his child. Son's lawyer is very optimistic that his ex is going to royally tick off the judge on many levels.

Yep... There are parents of both genders who do that to the kids. in my opinion if you want to hurt the other person you don't USE people of any age to do it...

I do not understand why parents hurt their children to get back at their ex's. Honest, when I divorced my ex, it never crossed either of our minds to harm the kids. And we got along for their sake and it was a no-brainer that if ex wanted to see the kids, he saw the kids. I scratch my head at people like your kid's bio. mom who seemed to be punishing THEM thru your husband...as well as by my son's ex. As I've often said, he is no angel, but she actually makes him seem like one, and he tries very hard to do what is right for his child. I give him THAT

My parents split for 6 months when I was about 3 and they AGREED to agree about stuff for me, and never to use me. I still had issues, but they were pretty well limited to wetting the bed and sucking my thumb again.

 

[everywoman]

My husband has a now 20 year old daughter. He paid a large amount for child support until she was 18. Her mother has kept her from him since she was 16. A rift started with husband questioning her about allowing daughter to date at 14 and progressed from there. husband moved in with his mom who had Alzheimer when daughter was 16---daughter was uncomfortable around grandama---husband had grandma every day, so the rift between them widened. Now Daughter will have nothing to do with husband. Mom has told her that if she does, she will cut off all financial support. She has threatened this girl into hating her dad. I hope a day will come when she reaps what she has planted. Up until age 16 daughter was a daddy's girl. He misses her terribly. She lives less than 5 blocks from us when she is not at college, but...it is horrible to watch him grieve for his child.

 

[DammitJanet]

EW, my mom tried everything in her power to turn me away from my father and for a long time it worked. I didnt want to have much to do with him and he stayed at work long hours, partly to keep away from my mom. However when I grew up and was out from under my mom's thumb all the time, I realized that everything she said wasnt true and I developed a good relationship with my dad for years. We adored each other at the time he died. I cant say the same was true with my mother.

 

[everywoman]

Thanks Janet.

 

[svengandhi]

H and I both have brown eyes. I have dark brown hair and H was blonde when young. Oldest boy is a curly headed strawberry blonde with hazel eyes and easy child has wavy blonde hair with bright blue eyes. They are both H's children. The other 3 kids all have variations of brown hair, darker than H and lighter than mine. daughter's is stick straight and the boys are wavy. My hair is curly and H is straight. difficult child has my eyes, babyboy has H's and daughter has H's sister's eyes. My parents both had brown eyes and my sister has the same eye color as oldest boy. Father in law had black hair and brown eyes, mother in law is blonde with green eyes. My father had 4 siblings - one aunt has green eyes and the other had dark brown, his brothers both had blue eyes. Genetics is a fascinating topic.

As for faking paternity, the laws which make a married man the legal father all generally pre-date DNA and have the laudable intention of ensuring support for innocent children. I think that if a man is tricked nowadays, he should sue the woman to get his money back IF he doesn't give a hoot about the child involved. I think that the laws should be re-written to permit a woman to be sued after the child is 18, so the child can understand. The best solution for a man is to insist on a paternity test if he isn't married to the woman. H asked me for one for oldest boy because we weren't married yet. I agreed. Then the baby was born and even H's ex-fiancé said the baby was clearly his. Sadly, my son looks more like the ex-fiancé than he does me but I know he's mine, LOL! I never had the test.