Kind of Personal..

SONS GONE WILD

Moms goin' crazy
Sorry for the pain all of this is causing you. Sending thoughts and hugs . . . ditto on the others' comments . . . take care of yourself. . . thinking of you.
 

gcvmom

Here we go again!
I have to echo what others have said... the mere presence of two parents does not in itself equal a stable home life. Children need positive role models in parents who are kind, considerate, loving, and passionate towards eachother.

I PM'd you again :)
 

tinamarie1

Member
I personally would have to confront him. Part of being married is holding each other accountable. I would do it in a calm manner and just tell him that IF he is doing that, this is how it makes you feel.
 
Big Bad Kitty hugs!

YOU are a beautiful woman, in and out.

You deserve the best. Get yourself into therapy, and decide what is the best decision for you.
 

ChefPaula1965

Oh my aching back!!
Good morning...
you know... I am getting very depressed about all this.. All this time I thought that maybe I was being petty with- my H... he doesn't pick up his dirty clothes.. he doesn't thank me for a good meal.. he doesnt put his dirty dish in the sink.. he doesnt kiss, hug, carress me he is not compassionate ... (I worried that it was just my mind being petty and me being selfish making all of this about me) I just pawned it of on him being VERY very depressed. I had a nervous break down in 2000 ... and he stood by me.. well, he was there anyway.. stoic and "doing the right thing" ... no compassion.. no tlc.. Is it too much to ask your spouce for tlc?? to care enough to show compassion?? ... so the other night we are talking and he says to me.. "isn't it my turn" you had your break down... The difference is I checked myself into a hospital... I took the medications the dr. reccomended.. I ADMITTED I had a problem.... He has finally, after years of me begging, accepted to take an AD... but I feel bad because I feel this is way too little too late... YES my H will do what he calls the "right thing"... you know staying with me when I am sick..
But, other than a "man in the house" and a second income, I don't feel like I have anything... Am I being selfish and petty????
the more I think about it.. the more I have trouble "putting up" with it.. A few months ago we went to a gas station and I was carying $250 in cash for groceries etc... When we got to the grocery store I thought that I had lost the cash at the gas station.... do you know what he did --- the kids were in the car with us-- - he banged on the steering wheel and told me "you are NEVER to carry cash around agai.. let me handle it... you are ALWAYS losing things--- in front of my kids... yelling at me like I was some kind of little imp.... kids asked me later "what's wrong with daddy?" I simply said.. daddy is very sad and stressed out right now.. just pray for him...
I can't do this anymore.. the more I "talked" to you all yesterday, the more I realized that this is a load of bull... and I don't deserve it....
YET I don't know what to do... he won't leave the house... the kdis and I would have to move out if I want separation... there are no "hotels" or places in our town that I can stay in... at this point in time in the school year I cannot make my kids change schools.... Should I give him until the end of the school year (may 21) to see what this AD will do?? Honestly, I don't think it will change much... He is a SLOB .. he cares nothing about us..
Another peeve about him.... we decided it was ok for him to take a lower paying job so that the kids would not have to go to afterschool care everyday untin 5:45 Pm... so that he could be home with them in the afternoon when they got home from school.... Well, per the kids, "mommy he comes home and sits on the couch right away and turns on the TV..." HE doesn't read with "boo" the 3rd grader that is supposed to read 30 mins per day... he rarely checks homework and/or chores.... takes their word for it is done... and he acts indisposed if the kids get too loud, ask him questions or ask him to "play ball" or something else with them........... TO ME this doesn't constitute a good reason to take a $400 a week cut in pay... he is not parenting at that time.. he is just being physically there... at least in after care the kids will be read to and played with... right??
Am I venting too much.??? my heart is just SO heavy... I am sorry to load off like this....
 

trinityroyal

Well-Known Member
Paula,

You're not venting too much. {{{{{Hugs}}}}} to you.

It's such a hard situation to be in. As far as what to do, here is what I would suggest.

If you have decided that you want to end your marriage, TAKE ALL THE STEPS YOU HAVE TO BEFORE MENTIONING DIVORCE to your H. Get all your ducks in a row. Financially, emotionally, with your job. Have a complete plan about what's going to happen, how and where you and the kids are going to live, and everything else.

You can make a good case with the courts for needing to keep the house, since it's the children's home and the place where they will be stable and less traumatized by the changes.

I'm not sure about State or Federal regulations, but here in Ontario there are tables available on the internet that tell you the required amounts for spousal support and child support, depending on income level, number of children, etc.

See a therapist and talk everything through. See a marriage counsellor with H if he will go, but go without him if necessary. Work through all of your unresolved feelings, and have a plan for how to deal with all of the emotions that you will go through.

Start preparing financially. If necessary, open a bank account to which your H has no access or knowledge. Do not let him know about the account. Get a safe deposit box and store any important papers in it (house title documents, ID, Social Insurance, Children's Birth Certificates, etc.)

Go to a family lawyer for a consultation. Find out whatever legal information you need about the process, any rules you have to follow, your rights and your responsibilities, and those of your H.

When you feel that you're ready and you have all of your plans in order, that's the time to start talking about it with H. You're prepared, you have a plan, you know what you need to do. If you start talking about it now, before you're ready, H may stand in the way of your plans, sabotage your efforts, etc.

I have been through a similar situation. Please feel free to PM me if you want more detail.

Hang in there. We're here for you.
Trinity
 

ChefPaula1965

Oh my aching back!!
Thank you so much for all this information Trinity. It did not even occur to me to set something up at this time. You pointed out some very important steps for me to take!! Wow, at this point I am not even sure I want the marriage to end completely.. or if I want a trial separation?? either way, he won't go... and will try to keep me from taking "the littles". Maybe I just need to make some arrangements for the kids and I to stay somewhere else during the summer... I know I would not be able to afford our current home .. even with child support.. I don't have a problem moving at the time.. only if it is after the kids get out of school.. It is so odd that the image of living with-o him is appealing to me?? I never thought I would feel like this.. Kind of like a load would be lifted from my shoulders...
And all this "stuffing and stuffing" hurt feelings for years... all coming to a point with the realization that my H might be looking at porn on the internet?? Wow how much revelation the past few days have given me....
Thank you thank you so much for all the responses and the support.......... you guys are the BEST!!!
Thanks Paula
 

Abbey

Spork Queen
I don't have a problem with the porn thing, unless it becomes a subsitution for intimacy with you. Only you can judge that. It's a touch call/realization to make.

Abbey
 

tammyjh

New Member
Just another question. Does he drink?

My husband is a recovering alcoholic and it was about 4 yrs. ago that I was making plans to take the kids and leave. My plan was to make sure I had enough $$ in the bank and if he shaped up before then...great. If he didn't, we were leaving. He did not know this but it seems when I "let go" he checked himself into rehab and started changing his life. Your story seems similar to me because what started the ball rolling was that I found out, by accident, that he was frequenting "married and flirting" chat rooms and that he had also connected by internet with an old girlfriend and they were chatting...started on internet but eventually by phone. As she lives in CA and we live in ME, there was nothing physical going on but he was hiding it. So, while some may disagree, the fact that he didn't want me to find out what he was doing means he was being sneaky....doing what he knew would hurt my feelings. And because he was drinking, he wasn't very good at covering his tracks. What tipped me off was having to sign back into all my sites that were supposed to remember me as well. When I checked history for somewhere I had been the day before, I found more than I was looking for. It was a while before he started changing and due to the drinking, he was acting like quite a jerk. I came to the realization that if thats what I was losing, I wasn't losing much. Luckily, he's been sober for almost 4 yrs. and working very hard to get his head on straight and is much more like the man I married.

You know, if he's not ready to change his life, there's really little you can do. I agree with Trinity, make your plans and get your things in order before you leave. If he changes in the meantime, that would be wonderful. But if he doesn't, you'll be ready to do what you need to do. Take care of yourself and the kids. And also, be kind to yourself. Wishing you all the best.
 

ChefPaula1965

Oh my aching back!!
Good morning... and thank you for your caring concern.... Tammy, my h dsnt drink... I wish I had somthing to blame his behavior on... It is odd, that I have gone from hurt to angry to "checking out" (mentally) with my H in the past few days since I posted.. I think he is feeling the heat.. but any attention is very minimal and in my humble opinion it is way too little way too late. I am starting, on my next pay check to put money asside for the possibility of moving out with the kids after school lets out (May 21) ... The problem with all this is that he cannot afford the house either and I really don't want to have a repo on our hands... I did go on a web site about child support and it looks like the support amount wld help me cover all the bills for maintaining the house... but I do not want to live there with the kids... If I leave my H I want a fresh start.. does that make any sense?? The three of them are going on a camping trip for the week end and I will be home alone.. (I can't go tent camping because of my recent back surgery.. they are not leaving me out).. this will be a good time for me to evaluate any situation that I need to... also time to talk to some friends and just have some much needed "me" time..
H has no compassion for me with- my feelings of loss with- difficult child.. he says "he made his decisions.. all bad.. just don't worry, there is nothing you can do" easier sad than done... but if I mention missing Andre he says "why, he was a problem..." I have so much on my plate that I am looking forward to the week end..
I am just SO tired.. I think that is the main emotion here.. I have to go through a grieving process and work out my emotions..
Today on break I am calling to make an apointment with a counselor...
I am so glad I have returned to this site.. you are all SO wonderful..
THanks Paula
 

busywend

Well-Known Member
in my humble opinion - and I have never been married - so take this for what it is worth if anything.

I think all relationships go through periods of ups and downs. There are times I can tell my boyfriend is not feeling thrilled to be with me and vice versa.
There are times I can tell he is not feeling attracted to me and vice versa.
Recognizing that and finding ways to bring us back up to a healthy place are the hard parts. It is easy to get to a bad place - it seems to happen without effort, huh?

The real efforts come in when you try to improve and repair a relationship.

He is not hearing you right now.
You are not hearing him right now.

You are both in a frustrated, hurt, protected place. You have both decided the other is capable of hurting your heart and you have put up a wall. It is natural. It takes work to break down the wall. It does not have to crumble down. You can take one brick off at a time if that works for the relationship. Each is different.

You are not connected at this time. You CAN be connected again.

He may never be romantic - you sacrificed that when you married him. Mistake? Only you can decide. Is it important to you now? Are you sure he is not willing to try it?
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
People's expectations of one another change over time.

Perhaps he was not romantic when you were first together but over time you've learned that you would like him to be more romantic. Is he willing to step up to the plate on this?

Perhaps, before the major demands of raising a family and difficult children, you didn't mind being the main housekeeper or picking up after him, but now you've allowed yourself to become stretched too thin and you'd appreciate a little help. Is H (and the kiddos) willing to cooperate if you set down some ground rules in regards to where they can eat and cleaning up after themselves? Will they follow a schedule? Would this be enough?

Those two pet peeves aside...the bottom line is that it's okay to change what you want out of a relationship and it's okay to set down boundaries that are healthy for YOUR peace and happiness. If you cannot tolerate your H looking at porn or engaging in activities that are 'less than' according to you, then you have every right to ask that he stop. He may see how it hurts you or bothers you and then stops. But likely, he will not. He will probably just hide it better. That may sound jaded but I'm saying that based on what you've posted. You said he refuses to go to counseling, he refuses to see his porn use as being an issue, he berates you and degrades you, does not meet your emotional, intellectual, or physical needs, and he's self centered.

Here is the thing. It's prudent for you to plan things out for yourself. Seek counseling, squirrel some money away and keep that in the back of your mind. In the meantime, create a journal for you to write down your feelings on a daily basis about where your marriage stands. At least once a week ask H if he plans on going to see a counselor so you know where he stands, mark his comments in your journal. Create a budget based on what you think you and the kiddos would need to live on and plan for that. If, in the meantime, your H begins counseling, great, but don't throw out your plan or spend your saved money. Often, their attempt at counseling is short lived and once they know they have you back, they stop going and you're back to square one.

Above all, listen to your gut, trust your instincts and if you feel you're being emotionally abused then you probably are and you have to prepare for a change because something's gotta give. Take care of yourself, be careful with your spending and always avoid fighting in front of the children, get a routine down and stick with it, etc. IOW, try to maintain some level of normalcy under not so normal conditions. Do it for you and your children and when you're ready to leave you will KNOW.

I hate when people say, "well, I really don't see what the big deal is" because we all have our own levels of tolerance for just about anything and we all know what we can and can't live with. You know yours. Trust yourself and don't give up a peice of yourself because someone else tells you you're making too much out of things.
 

trinityroyal

Well-Known Member
I hate when people say, "well, I really don't see what the big deal is" because we all have our own levels of tolerance for just about anything and we all know what we can and can't live with. You know yours. Trust yourself and don't give up a peice of yourself because someone else tells you you're making too much out of things.

This is such a good point Jo. When someone says that they don't see what the big deal is, they are sending you 2 clear messages:
1) your feelings are not valid
2) I don't care if my actions make you feel that way

Neither of those things is acceptable in a loving partnership.
 

ChefPaula1965

Oh my aching back!!
Wow Jo, thanks for the idea on journaling.. I definately will do this..
My H has been unromantic since the first valentines day after we were married... while courting he was very romantic.. I have asked and asked to take into consideration that I like cards.. flowers and love to be courted.. it has been to no avail... He has only gotten progressively worse.. He even hates love songs, even if I point one out to him about our relationship...
This is just weighing more and more on me... At first, even with-o the romance, I knew that he cherished me.. he showed it in other ways.. so I was able to cope with the lack of romance.. He keeps pointing out to me that "there is nothing left between us" .. and I am not willing to give this anymore of my time and energy..
The kids do do some chores and H does help out some.. when I ask for very specific things to be done.. grocery shopping.. some laundry etc.. but is such a bad example to the kids.. what he does do is 1/2 a*s ... He eats and eats and eats.. but on the other hand gets on to Boo.. who is almost 100lb at only 8 yo... tells him he needs to control himself as far as food is concerned... If Daddy is eating so much and even being sneaky about his food intake.. how can "boo" not see that??
My kids do not respect me.. and lay on me the same way H does... how do you stop that when the parent is doing it??
The "blow ups" at me in front of "the littles" are becoming more frequent.. he has made it CLEAR that he has completely lost all interest in our home life... AND our home... i/e I don't want your friends coming over to our white trash home......... I am treated with contempt by all in my home..
I cannot tollerate the porn... in my minds eye it IS a BIG deal... it is a slap inthe face that some how.. I am not good enough...
Thank you all so much for your ideas.. I started yesterday with plans.. by looking at about who much child support I could get... calling a contractor to look a the repairs that need to be made to the house.. we have a roof leak... of course back of my mind is that this needs to be fixed so we can put the house on the market...
Wow keep the great ideas coming.. and the encouragement..
thanks and hugs to you
Paula
 

Marguerite

Active Member
A bloke looking at porn needn't be a slap in the face. You feel that it is, because in your situation it is a small symptom of a huge problem, and it is that problem, and others, that is the slap in the face. The porn and your feelings were the catalyst for it all coming out now.

And I'm also not so sure it's porn he's looking at. If he were merely looking at porn there is no reason for him to have disengaged from you. The average bloke looking at porn - if he loves his wife and is committed to her, most of the time he's mentally transplanting his wife's head onto the model whose photo he's ogling.

For blokes, sex is about physical relief. It's like having a wash, or eating a meal. Love - an entirely different kettle of fish.

We are what we have evolved to be. Males have evolved to spread their genes around, while women have evolved to want a man around to help support the family. Women work for the family unit, men are committed to their children but if they have the energy and opportunity, it's in their nature to stray if it's not putting the family unit at risk. Most times though, it does - and so men who are really committed to their family, who care about them, are far less likely to stray.

If he hasn't touched you in such a long time, then his mind (and sex drive) has gone elsewhere. And the way he puts you down - for me, that confirms it. he's putting you down to justify his cheating and to also assuage his own guilt (what there is of it). If he were merely disinterested due to a low sex drive, he wouldn't need to be so nasty to you about it.

To look just at your original presenting issue - I don't have a problem with a bloke looking at porn. I used to buy the porn magazines for husband when we first married, and read them myself. Mind you, I did learn to see the rubbish in them as well as (at times) darn good articles. The cheaper, trashier mags are likely to have a lot more utter sexist claptrap. And the cheaper and nastier you go, the porn all starts to look the same.

When I worked in a blue-collar male environment, alongside the men, there was porn everywhere. magazines, posters on the walls, 'blue' jokes etc. Even a porn film one lunchtime, which I freely admit I watched with the men. I was one of the boys and as soon as that facade slipped, a barrier grew up which made my job much harder. I didn't particularly enjoy it but I was able to understand and tolerate it. And because of all those mags I'd bought for husband, I could discuss the photos like a connoisseur. It really kept those blokes on their toes around me.

I'm not suggesting you do this, by the way. For me, it was what worked for me in the workplace. The admin finally came round and said all the porn had to go, all the sexist stuff and all, I was very glad. I could stop pretending.

But it did show me what the male attitude to porn really is. And it is primarily physical. That's it.

If we're walking down the road and either husband or I see an attractive girl, we will quietly point her out to each other. husband will also quietly point out an attractive male to me. Neither of us has ever strayed nor are we likely to. Perhaps that security makes this so non-threatening.

Right now in my life, I feel very unattractive. I'm past 50, I'm way overweight, my hair is grey (but I do colour it), I've always been dumpy - short on the leg, long in the body. I have rolls of lard which make any tight-fitting clothing look just plain wrong. I'm also, for health reasons, unable to be - shall we say, adventurous? - in the bedroom. At times, I'm not able to do a thing in that direction. It's very difficult for husband but we talk about it, we've discussed it. Still haven't got any satisfactory management strategies, but the thinking caps are on.
Despite this, I do not see myself as a failure, or in any way deserving of the way you are being treated by your husband and your kids. I am a capable, worthwhile, intelligent person who can often find another way around a challenging problem.

And so are you. Besides, you're younger than me so you probably look a whole lot better!

Your husband should leave, if he can't engage. There are many ways in which a couple can be separated, and right now you and your husband already ARE single parents.

"Staying together for the sake of the kids" is a fallacy. It's just plain wrong. Even when the kids are not witnessing domestic violence, or arguments - they are still witnessing apathy and disrespect. This is a very bad example to be setting. Your husband is setting a bad example to the kids in how he treats you, and YOU are setting a bad example in how you allow yourself to be treated. You would all be better off if you lived apart.

Are you still able to talk with him about things? or has he cut you off at the knees too many times? You need to be able to sit down and discuss what the FAMILY needs. For example, the kids need after-school care. Whether that is in a centre, or at home - it's up to you and your husband to decide. But the quality of care is an important factor. In a centre, the kids aren't just put in a room and left to their own devices. They get afternoon tea. They get structured activities. They often get support with homework.

At home, the children need the same degree of support. They need to be met with an after-school snack. They need support with homework or other requirement. Maybe they need to be ferried to music class or sports games. They need interaction. And while they're happy on their own, then whoever is minding them can get on with preparing dinner or doing the washing.

If you can, draw up an agreement. If this idea of taking a pay cut to save on after school fees is to work, then he has to be involved.

Now, he may say, "I don't want to be involved."
You say, "Honey, that's fine. I'll put them back in after-school care. Now you can pick up those extra hours again." (in other words, "you have just lost your excuse to cut your hours back").

It's possible that he just doesn't accept or realise what you expected of him, what is required of him. Some blokes need it spelled out. Don't give him any wiggle room to be able to say, "I didn't know that was what I was supposed to be doing!"

Give him plenty of rope. he'll either make something constructive out of it, or hang himself.

Now, back to your cookies being missing and the implications - you could try the spying technique, especially if he's not going to be approachable. You could either instal spyware (would you be able to hide it from him, though?) or you could set up a secret nanny-cam aimed at the computer screen. A nanny-cam is unlikely to pick up chat room typing, though.

Do you have a computer-savvy friend who could spy online for you? It really doesn't take much at all, to track someone. Especially if all that person is doing is trying to hide from a partner. If he's surfing the net to pick up women, he will be hiding it from you, but otherwise he will be advertising big and loud. Some way, somehow, these women will have to be able to contact him.

It's amazing what you can find when you simply Google a person's name. Also Google your address, and also phone numbers.

Also obvious - get your hands on his phone and check the text messages. And don't be obvious - do it when he's in the shower, or at 3 am. Now, he MAY be deleting his text messages, but what about his phone directory? It's less likely he'd feel a need to delete stuff on his phone, since the kids aren't likely to stumble onto anything. He probably also won't delete stuff if you NEVER use his phone as a rule.

Whether you do any of this or not - I would be using the time you have alone to get copies of all important documents. The house papers, insurance policies, social security details, car ownership papers, car insurance, bank account details, marriage certificate, children's birth certificates, passports - whatever you can think of. Get copies and keep copies away from your home, somewhere he never goes. Your workplace is good.

There was an episode of Oprah (on Aussie TV a few months ago) which outlines how to PREPARE for the need to separate suddenly. In that case, the woman was in physical danger from her husband and the need to do this was to not only save her life, but to also make it possible for her to STAY away. If you leave in a hurry and find yourself broke, unable to access bank accounts or insurance, unable to look after your children, the temptation is strong to go back. If you ever leave and choose to go back it needs to be choice, not necessity.

At the same time - find out your legal rights. Can you make him leave? Or do you have to leave? What happens to your financial security under either of these options? Is all your money in joint accounts? Do you have separate accounts? Does he have signing rights on your accounts? Make yourself safe. If you want to make yourself safe secretly, then slowly transfer small amounts from your account into another account that he doesn't know about and can't get access to. Use another bank if you must.

You may never need any of that. You probably won't. But having it there, having made the preparations - it makes it easier to make the move when and if you feel you need to. No time need be lost when packing.

If he suddenly shapes up and becomes a model husband, you can always shred the now-unwanted copies of documents.

For now - you are being treated with disrespect. And it's nothing to do with porn. Get yourself to a counsellor, for YOU. Stand up to your kids when they show disrespect, tell them you won't take it any more from them. If their disrespect is due to difficult child-ness, that is different. I will tolerate disrespect if it's due to anxiety or fear, but I expect a difficult child who is being disrespectful mid-rage, to apologise later and resolve it. But if they routinely treat you like dirt, raise the bar higher. You deserve it. And he might get the message. If he doesn't, then by that time you will know what to do.

This can't continue. It's bad for the kids. His belief that you two should stay together until the kids are grown, then separate - sorry buddy, it's better to go now.

There are many reasons why a man would stay married under these conditions - if he can stay married and still happily tomcat around, he's got the best of both worlds. He has a family to come home to, meals on the table, clothes washed - and can also spread it around elsewhere without fear of some woman trying to get her claws into him. He's free, freer than many a single man.

Keep us posted on how you go.

Marg
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
Paula - do not waste your energies snooping, setting up nany cams or spyware. You know what you saw and you know how it makes you feel and again, even if it's acceptable to some, it is not to you. Therefore, you must proceed in a manner that is good for you.

The more you snoop the worse you feel and right now your focus should be on lifting yourself up, not dragging yourself down. Lets say he chooses to look or chat or whatever and you find it with your nanny cam? What then? So, you will know for sure, that's it. And then your heart is ripped open all over again.

Some people do not understand that sometimes it is about the porn, very much so. People such as your H are so detached emotionally, that things like porn, gambling, alcohol, drugs, etc., are the only way in which they can feel in control of some small aspect of their life or can feel free from all their responsibilities.

Marg said some good things about the root of these issues not beginning with porn; the porn is just the obvious in your face, which started you rethinking everything else, the more important issues.

You choose what you can live with and what you cannot. Sending many hugs~
 
Top