Learning Disability (LD), but doesn't test Learning Disability (LD)? Any ideas? Thanks! (LONG)

Shari

IsItFridayYet?
I realize wee is much younger, but he passed the schools dyslexia and language tests with FLYING colors, but eventually was diagnosed with severe dyslexia/dysgraphia/dyscalcula. He was bright enough to compensate for the school's general testing, but when taken to someone familiar with it, they noted it right off.
He also is diagnosis'ed with Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD).
Could jumper be in the same boar?
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Shari, thank you. I have a feeling this is on the right track along with the Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) and inattentive ADD (maybe). She IS bright and can focus better during short testing than when she is in the classroom and is good at "faking" things too. I am looking forward to her neuropsychologist testing. They are not going to be trying to tell us everything is ok...they will be looking for pieces of the puzzle that impede her ability to take tests. She IS learning. She has had testing since she was in third grade and has learned A LOT. But she is not able to perform up to her ability level.

This is far more frustrating than Sonic's, obvious autistic spectrum disorder because at least with him we know what we are dealing with.

Thanks for all the wonderful food for thought here.
 
if it were me, i'd make an appointment with an audiologist asap if there is a wait in your area--the school should be able to tell you who they use to evaluation for Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) if you dont have one.
i wouldnt be waiting for the results of a np exam--i'd just schedule it.

i'm not sure what you mean that she was diagnosis'd in the 3rd grade and it "just went away"...if you have documentation already then i'd be waving it in the teams face now. (i'd still retest since, well, why not? if you are going to do a thorough exam, that should be included, really, it could have been included in a triennal and you could have had the school pay for it).

then when you get the reports i'd demand a new IEP meeting to revisit the educational impact that the diagnosis' may have on her.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, according to the school district, she doesn't test as Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) anymore. Yes, I know. It's silly.

The neuropsychologist evaluation is in June. I can wait. School is almost out for the year anyway. I don't trust the SD to believe anybody with credentials any less profound that a NeuroPsychologist. They can blow off what an audiologist says, but not a neuropsychologist. If t hey do, I can show it to the Dept. of Civil Rights which is in charge of my daughter's 504 and my school district quakes at the thought of the Dept. of Civil Rights doing an investigation on them. I think, of course, that she has Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD).

My daughter does not understand directions unless she DOES it herself. Even in sports, where she excels, I remember a coach teaching the kids how to pivot and shoot baskets. She kept doing it wrong until the coach went to her, put her hands on her shoulders and showed her how to pivot and shoot. After that, she was the star of the team in pivoting and shooting, but she did not understand the verbal directions. Is that Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD)?
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
She kept doing it wrong until the coach went to her, put her hands on her shoulders and showed her how to pivot and shoot. After that, she was the star of the team in pivoting and shooting, but she did not understand the verbal directions. Is that Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD)?

Good distinction. I don't know the answer but someone here will.
 

seriously

New Member
Our ability to process sound and make sense of it does change as kids grow due to normal (or abnormal) changes in the brain's ability to process sound. So it is possible to have problems with sound perception and interpretation "go away" because the brain matures. I think difficult child 2 had something like this happen but he developed a unilateral hearing loss and central auditory processing cannot be tested if you do not have good hearing in both ears. At the time he was tested he had slow temporal lobe processing. He also coached himself through tasks out loud because his brain wasn't communicating well between the two hemispheres. By talking out loud he was passing the info between the two sides of his brain externally instead of the internal processing most kids can do.

How did the school district test her for Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD)? We have a school of speech and language here that includes one of the earliest pioneers in this field. She still does Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) testing. And it is NOT something a regular audiologist has the tools to do. To do it correctly, it requires a specific set of recordings, a somewhat different sound booth setup and a lot of specialized training. At least that's what this person explained to me several years ago.

When I brought the results of easy child's testing (clearly showed deficits) to the school district they refused to accept them. They said THEIR definition of Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) was based solely on school performance and they did not believe she had any deficits. Uh huh. She could not follow more than one step directions in 3rd grade.

One easy way to try to figure out if she has Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) is to ask - how easy is it for her to spell or to use the individual sounds (phonemes) in words? Can she rhyme, repeat or recognize nonsense words, make sense of each individual word in the oral instructions? If so then it's my understanding that she would not be diagnosed with Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD).

That is not to say that she doesn't have language processing issues too or instead.

easy child's language processing deficits cause her to have problems:

Figuring out what information was important in a sentence or story or lecture
Being able to sequence information - she still can't tell you a story from beginning to end the first time.
Spelling - was tough until we really hammered home the phonics stuff.
Memorization of things like times tables was nearly impossible for her. I was told that she would always have difficulty with information other kids were able to make "automatic". That means she doesn't automatically recall information like 2x2=4 when she sees or hears it. Instead she has to figure it out or intentionally recall it which takes a lot more time and attention.
Because she has to focus so much of her brain power on understanding language and recalling information she often seems distracted or like she's not paying attention. It's not because of ADD - it's due to language processing deficits.

By 5th grade easy child was failing and the school said she just wasn't trying hard enough. I pulled her out to homeschool her. We did intensive speech therapy twice a week for 2 years with 2 different speech centers. Each one focused on different aspects of her language processing problems. We figured out that easy child didn't have an internal voice - she wasn't "talking" to herself, processing language verbally in her head. So the speech therapist worked with her on using icons/pictures to help her recall information and to intentionally develop and use an internal voice. That seemed to help easy child a lot.

She is now in high school, carrying mostly B's with the occasional A (or C) in an academically demanding program. 5 years ago she did not believe she would ever succeed at school. She was convinced she was stupid and could not do anything right. I knew better - she is clearly gifted in many ways but managing language will always be awkward for her.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
PJ, wow. THANK YOU. I think you nailed the problem (or one of them). She understands the individual words, but when thrown at her in sentences, she just doesn't process the meaning. She has not seen a speech therapist since her first IEP. Seems like this needs to be addressed. For the life of me, I don't think ADD is the big issue here. I think it's lack of understanding of what she hears. She really has no symptoms of ADD other than an inability to concentrate and ADD is more than that.

I will bring that up at neuropsychologist too!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link, Malika.

I could really relate to the part about not comprehending what she hears. Her syntax, speech style, etc. is all excellent...puzzling again, I know. She is very good at expressing herself.
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
MWM--

It could also be a "learning style"

Most folks are visual learners - they have to see it or read it to learn it
Some are auditory learners - they have to listen or hear it to learn it

A few folks are physical learners - they have to touch it, act it out to learn it...

After reading what you wrote about the coach teaching her pivot and shoot....well, maybe she is a physical learner who is struggling with non-physical skills like reading and higher math?
 

seriously

New Member
The language processing problems are best diagnosed by a speech therapist - at least in my experience. Especially the more subtle ones.

You should be able to get the school to do this but may have to call a new IEP meeting to get them to agree.

And this is not something that would show up on IQ tests and may only be hinted at on things like the WJ Achievement testing. I am guessing that her fluency scores on the WJ subtests are all low - you could check that if you have the records. And if they did sound/symbol association I think it's called, that will show problems with phonemic awareness and helps to rule out Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD).

If they did the extended WJ Achievement there should be something called Story Recall or something like that. I would have expected that score to be low too.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, this tutor, who is a Special Education teacher, can help her get into college if she has certain reading problems. Two of our state universities will take students who have any sort of reading problem, and her dream is to get into college. He also knows HOW to teach kids who have reading problems...and reading problems usually spreads to school problems, period, since reading is involved in all subjects.

Crossing my fingers that we can find out what is going on and how to fix it! Thanks again for all the great responses. I have a lot more to go on now!
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
In addition to all the other recommendations...

1) Be aware that "tests don't lie" is an incorrect statement. Test results are like statistics - they can be manipulated by the bias of the tester.
2) Not all tests are created equal.
3) Re-tests that are done close together (wisc-iv, for example, less than 3 years apart) are invalid
4) Trends are important - IF you can compare the same test (i.e. more than 3 years apart)
5) Details are important. The neuropsychologist should be given the DETAILED test results of all other testing done - not the "summary and recommendations", but the details - some will only release these directly to "other qualified personnel" (i.e. neuropsychs, ed. psychs, tdocs, etc.) - but either way, the neuropsychologist will need those.

Do you have a parent report? If not, do you know what all previous tests were, when done, and by whom? Really valuable info.

I'm not as familiar with neuropsychologist (we don't have access to that resource here) - so others can clarify, but if neuropsychologist doesn't deal with these directly, then you should also get (before the neuropsychologist appointment if possible)
- Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) (speech-language specialst) - they look at hearing, Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD), spoken language, etc.; don't usually do a diagnosis but do provide very useful input to other specialists
- Occupational Therapist (OT) (occupational therapist) - if there is any hint of motor skills or sensory issues at all, these are a good source of parallel testing as well.

This sounds like a complex case - where there may be no one diagnosis that will drive the process, but where multiple diagnosis work against each other... you need to know what ALL the pieces are...
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
In advance, we have mailed a full load of info to neuropsychologist, including every IEP testing she has ever had. Nothing was left out. He will have a lot to work with.
 
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