leaving on a jet plane (again)

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by amazeofgrace, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. amazeofgrace

    amazeofgrace New Member

    so difficult child II calls his Grandmother to ask for his Dad and My mother in law tells him he went back to extended-rehab for another 6 weeks, I am guessing he fell off the wagon. I do not know what to say or feel on that one. difficult child II is devastated and blames me, of course.

    then I went to a BBQ one of the gals from my divorce support group threw. My Mom kept difficult child II and difficult child I had to work. It was a very relaxing time. Until I came home, and my Dad went nuclear on me, because difficult child I apparantly "tagged" the fence with WD40. He wants us out of here, and I want to be out of here, but not with difficult child I.

    I was ready to call a priest to perform an exorcism on difficult child I on Thurs. He was out of control we had the police here again. Then he was throwing up all day yesterday and he tells me last night that he had taken 12 tylenol on Thurs. nite, now I do not know if he's lying or serious. His probation officer says she is going to put him in a BD's group home if he acts up "one more time", every week it's "one more time", he gets alot of those.

    I am, as usual, fried. Oh well that's my rant of the day.
  2. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911


    CALL the caseworker back and tell her THAT YOU CAN NO LONGER LIVE WITH difficult child AND THAT YOU ARE DEMANDING PLACEMENT......

    When you are in such that you are ready to call a priest (don't think I didn't think or consider or even say The power of Christ compells you at times too or flasked some holy water and ....well you get the drift)
    and you are in jeopardy of loosing your only home?

    TIME TO GET STABLE and that won't happen at home.

    I feel for your parents, and you and difficult child. But enough is enough.

    Why is difficult child blaming YOU for his dads inability to stay sober? MY gosh - he must not have a very high opinion of his father's ability as a human if he can blame YOU for everything. Counseling - NOW.......today.........and placement TODAY.

    Hugs for you and all -
    Sorry the man fell off the wagon - but I think this will be a trend. I dont' think he really WANTS to live with his enabler mom, and maybe he's learned just enough in rehab to make him doubt their relationship - that is a start - but his battle is going to be a long one - at the least find an alanon or alateen support group and MAKE difficult child go.

  3. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Sending you the strength to do the right thing. I think Star has some valid points. Some brilliant points.
    You need some peace.
  4. Andy

    Andy Active Member

    I am so sorry you go through so much. I agree that if difficult child I was at the exorcism point than time for more help. I worry so much for your safety as well as your parent's and difficult child II (and difficult child I). You should not have to live like this. So many "one more times" and difficult child I figures there will never be that consequence. It is like he is trying to figure out what the criteria is for the "one more thing". And what is difficult child II learning by watching this? If he sees brother getting away with anything, that will give him strength to ignore rules and be disrespectful. difficult child I is a role model for difficult child II. What type of role model is he becoming?

    I know you will do what is right for you and your kids. And I know whatever decision you make will be very difficult for you.

    Stay strong and stay safe!
  5. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    I am so sorry.
    I agree, difficult child should attend Alateen.
    This should be on the general bb, in my humble opinion.
    I'm so sorry about your dad going ballistic, too.
  6. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    What Star said.

    I think it is time to call the case worker and tell her to get him OUT of your home. Time to have him placed. He will NOT see any reason to make any growth unless this happens.

    And YOU, my dear lady, have been through ENOUGH!

    I do agree that difficult child 2 has very little respect for his father's ability to stay sober, doesn't he. Alateen would be a wonderful thing for him. It would be a process but would help difficult child 2 put the responsibility for ex's alcohol abuse on ex. It would also help difficult child 2 see that he holds NO blame for the problem. Kids really DO assume they are to blame.

    on the other hand, isn't it nice to know that difficult child 2 thinks you are so powerful? Apparently you have the power to make a grown man be addicted to a substance!!! (Snicker at the IDEA, NOT at your difficult child 2 - I was the sis of an alcoholic who thought it was her fault from about age 9 or 10).

    Star really does have a lot of in real life experience and wisdom in these issues.

  7. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    My son took too many Tylenol the night before ate the bottle of aspirin. We don't know how many Tylenol he took -- more than eight is all we know -- but he didn't throw up from it, not that night nor the next day. When they ran the blood test to determine the level of aspirin in his blood, they discovered the high levels of Tylenol and were more concerned about that than the aspirin. It can literally destroy the liver. Seems that if the Tylenol would have made him throw up, he would have thrown them up. I don't see how they could make him throw up once they're out of the stomach and into the blood stream. That would take about 20-30 minutes.

    But that doesn't mean he did take the 12 Tylenol.
  8. amazeofgrace

    amazeofgrace New Member

    picked difficult child I up from work and he went into another rant and rage in the car, started kicking my windshield, I got him home, he went 10 rounds with my Mom and kept trying to get in my face, he called 911, because he wanted out of here and away from us B*thces. An officer came (again) talked to him (again), talked to me (again), I said I wanted him removed (again), he told me they can't/won't do that. I have to wait until court Thurs. nice huh? I asked the officer "so he can break my windshield, put holes in doors, curse us all out and you won't take him? What will it take for you to take him?" "Everytime you've been here you've said next time you'll take him" He really did not give me a viable answer, just to make sure I express my concerns to the judge. I am sooooooooo discouraged. The officer asks if he can stay somewhere else, excuse me he's on house arrest! I thought that meant he had to stay here???? And no he can't go to evil mother in law, who has her own set of DWI's and unhealthy issues. I want to cry, scream and drink, yes i want to drink and take lots of xanax, but I won't, but I want to!!!! Now we have to all sleep with our doors locked in fear! I am tempted to drive him for a psychiatric evaluation, but I know where that will go, been there done that, they're just like the officer, "sorry can't help you" "he's yours"
  9. Andy

    Andy Active Member

    Can you call the probation officer anytime 24/7? When the police are called, can the probation officer also be called to come ASAP?

    Can you tell the probation officer that it is no longer safe to have difficult child I in the house?

    How long ago was that psychiatric evaluation? Next time he rages in the car, can you drive him to the ER - maybe the doctor can place a physician's emergency hold on him to a local behavioral healthcare facility for a complete mental health assesement?

    Is he on medication? Is there a possibility that a medication evaluation would help?
  10. amazeofgrace

    amazeofgrace New Member

    I wish I could call the probation officer to come, she'd be here, but no, she is not on call, I have left her multiple messages, and the DYFS worker too. No one cares, that's how I feel, no one.

    Problem is difficult child I can turn it off and on, like a switch. I can try to press his buttons, but he's smart enough and seems to have enough control, to mind his P's & Q's when he needs to. In the past in counseling, he waits until after the session to go postal on me

    He is on 10 mg of lexapro, and the psychiatric just dismissed my suggestions of a mood stabilizer, not that i think it's done much for difficult child II. Ya know they make it sound like all you have to do is a, b and c and all will be well, but that's not the case. I mean the police are asking me if they can take my difficult child who is on house arrest to his alcoholic grandmother's house>>>??? no one wants to be bothered, DYFS worker does not call back, probation officer and cops keep saying "next time" everytime, BA's and inhomes don't show up, (except for difficult child II's inhome, she's awesome)
    I am just so discouraged, I am understanding now how some Mom's just bail on their kids, again, I am not going to, but I understand
  11. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member


    I think you have a caseworker as well as a PO. I am assuming he is involved with mental health as well as juvenile justice. It is time to pull out all the stops and tell everyone that you simply cannot live this way anymore. Number one son has to live elsewhere as of NOW! They can pick the place...be it a group home, juvy, or the moon. Im betting they pick a group home. My son was in a multitude of group homes during his teen years. In fact, we jokingly said he lived out of hefty bags during those years because as soon as he started up again when home I called his case manager and she found another group home for him to go into. There is no reason for you to put up with his BS any longer. Let someone else do it and mandate the counseling, medications, etc. Let them get him ready for independent living. Sometimes that is what it takes.
  12. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    You are describing the classic psychiatric adverse reaction to antidepressants in teens. There's a reason Lexapro and the others aren't approved for use by children under 18 (for some, under 25) -- they are neither safe no effective. The suicidal ideation thing gets the most attention, but the other biggy is "hositility", a category that includes things like fighting with parents, violence and homicidal ideation. And, of course, there are the three As -- agitation, anger, aggression.

    I would and did fire any psychiatrist who can't recognize a psychiatric adverse reaction to antidepressants. Doesn't even matter if your son had these symptoms before he started the drug. If they are continuing at a level that requires you call the police so often you are developing a personal relationship with the officer, the drug isn't helping.

    Adding a mood stabilizer will not correct or prevent psychiatric adverse reactions to antidepressants. There is a name for it -- antidepressant induced mania (bipolar). Treatment is discontinuation of the antidepressant, not adding more drugs. Discontinuation can result in mood swings associated with antidepressant withdrawal. The bipolar diagnosis or the need for mood stabilzers should not be made for months after the antidepressant is withdrawal. It takes that long for the brain to settle down.

    I can't help wondering how many kids who are having psychatric adverse reactions to antidepressants are clogging up our juvenile justice system. I know my son was one.
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    When the police came from calling 911 - ????

    Did you?

    Call them when he was yelling and screaming so that the dispatch operator could get him recorded?

    Did you insist that you want to press charges for personal property damage?

    Did you INSIST that he is a danger TO OTHERS?

    Hon - at this point - you are hostage in your own home and you are dealing with a police dept that is probably clueless about (like most of the world) what to do with our kids.

    They make the rules, but then very few of them EVER EVER EVER have to live with this violence. So you have to play their game and I'm not suggesting you be a player or play games - but it's time to get him OUT for your safety (doors locked) and the sooner the better.

    I realize he's under house arrest - but so are you. And amazingly enough a lot of people don't know that if you take a child to the emergency room when he is calm and quiet - if they make you SIT THERE long enough he WILL blow a cork eventually and THEN witnesses will see that he is a danger to self and/or others.

    The other option is to call the police - the next time he is violent and TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER that YOU WANT HIM TRANSPORTED TO THE LOCAL HOSPITAL as you are in fear of your life. TELL THEM THE WORDS that they are trained to hear - "I FEAR HE IS A DANGER TO OUR FAMILY."

    If you do that "So he can do this and that and this and that and get away with it?" You are almost TELLING a cop - "Hey it's okay it's just inconvenient." The words they are trained to listen for are:

    I fear for my life
    He is a danger to himself and others
    I fear reprisal

    Then the big one - I WOULD HATE to have him come in here so on edge and do something to our family AFTER I BEGGED YOU to take him. When he does something officer - do you want THAT on your conscience? Then ask for his commanders name and number -

    It's sad.....it is very very sad that more police officers do not have CIT (crisis intervention training) and the fact that EVERYONE keeps "threatening" him with - YOU will leave if....nextime. Teaching him a lot on how to skirt the issues.

    I agree with SaraPA too - It could be his medication. Zoloft made Dude and myself suicidal and very irritable. But.....BIG BUT - don't totally blame the medication. He's an angry young man. VERY angry - and he needs to be somewhere he can get control of his anger. That isn't going to happen at your house - and if you try to explain this to anyone - they're going to assume that it's an episodic event and you'll all calm down until the next episodic event.

    CALL THE COMMANDER of that police dept. THEY CAN take him to the hospital for observation - you just have to stand firm and tell them NO WAY IN HADES is THIS KID COMING BACK INTO OUR HOME - and every time you take him back - and back down from the cops? THey will repeat this process ad nauseum. BECAUSE like I said - without training and knowledge of mentally ill people - MOST law enforcement officers believe this is just - absent dad, over worked single mom - angry at the world teen.......and NOT recognize it as a mental illness that REQUIRES hospitalization.

    If it happens again before Friday - CALL 911 - STAND YOUR GROUND. IF they leave and he does it again? CALL 911 STAND YOUR GROUND. I'd call that dang police dept. so much they'd haul him somewhere just to stop wasting the gas to come out to my house. AND remember - let them hear him YELLING......and then say "I AM IN FEAR FOR MY SAFETY."

    I am really so sorry I know anything about this at all - but over the years - you would croak if I told you what I've had to do and been through with Dude - dont' you see NO ONE here is surprised by his outbursts? You are not alone.

  14. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    I've been there done that. If it's the classic antidepressant psychiatric adverse reaction, he can be anywhere in the world and he isn't going to get control of his anger, rage, hostility, violence. Not until the drug is gone. The drug causes the brain to create the emotion of anger for which there is nothing but a chemical cause. Until that chemical reaction is removed, he won't be able to deal with any anger he has from real life experiences.

    I lived it with my son.
  15. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Based on our experiences- I second Sara and Star on this. I think many times the police look at it like it is just a frustrated parent calling and if the parent accepts their refusal to do anything, then they figure it must not be too bad of a situation. If you make enough noise, they realize that they need to come up with another answer.

    I think you do need to get him to a psychiatric hospital, and there are several reasons why that I think it will be in everyone's (including his) best interest in the short term and long term.

    When my son exhibited a manic reaction, and it does appear to be medication induced, and he got in a lot of trouble legally for his actions during that, he came home and the AD was stopped but none of the "brain healing" time was explained to me or the courts. difficult child was acting angry and very unsettled. Because of the courts/GAL demanding that I do something and my bro filing for custody, etc., I kept going to psychiatrist saying how difficult child was acting and that something had to be done. Instead of psychiatrist explaining everything to me and writing a letter to the courts explaining it (had I known then what I know now, I would have demanded this), psychiatrist just started difficult child on mood stabilizerrs and gave a diagnosis of BiPolar (BP). Now, it might be an accurate diagnosis, but in my heart of hearts, I cannot be sure. And I worry a great deal about what is happening to difficult child mentally and physically from taking all these medications if this is the wrong diagnosis.

    At the time, I felt like you do now- "somebody just do something to stop it". That is understandable and I'll be the first to say that something does need to be done. But it will probably be more beneficial to push for the mental health route (regardless of the diagnosis) than the Department of Juvenile Justice. I am pretty sure the Department of Juvenile Justice will stay involved either way at this point, but mental health treatment won't if you don't push for it now. Plus, an emergency room dr has to evaluation them at arrival- they can't put it off for a week until a scheduled appointment or court appearance.

    As others have said, just because difficult child calms down doesn't mean that you can't get the point across to the ER psychiatrist. There are ways. First, if difficult child doesn't become agressive again, he might surprise you and admit to them that he needs help. (Mine did this last time and I was shocked). Other things- tell them exactly what he has said- even if you are sure he didn't mean it- tell them anything that even suggests a threat of bodily harm to self or you or anyone else. (My difficult child had said "if a cop came in even with a gun to take him somewhere, he'd kill him". - Now of course I knew my 13yo would never really do that and even if he tried, there was no real threat to anyone based on that because difficult child didn't even have any kind of weapon. But- I told ER psychiatrist that difficult child threatened to kill a cop. I toned it down a lot once he was admitted and no one else ever even heard about it.) The point is, you have to do what you have to do to get the system to work for you instead of against you. I knew my difficult child needed to be in a psychiatric hospital- something had to be done. The insurance co and the laws dictate the processes. My difficult child was on an ankle bracelet at the time- it didn't matter- I got him in a car, drove him to ER. Once in ER, they cannot let him leave until he is evaluation'd (make sure you tell them a registration desk you are there because you think he is a potential danger to self or others. They can put a policeman at the door to guard it. The nurse or psychiatrist called the PO after we were there to tell her where difficult child was. The fact that he was on house arrest never was questioned- it was considered emergency medical treatment.

    Good luck!!!!
  16. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    Which brings up the fear I lived with while my son was violent from antidepressants. He was over 16 at the time and getting progressively more violent. We must keep in mind that police aren't going to play with an aggressive, violent man-child. They were physical with my son, twice needing four officers to subdue him. Had my son's level of violence -- which included "protecting himself" with a knife from what he misperceived to be aggression on the part of others -- the police were eventually going to shoot him. It's that simple. Consequently I never called the police on my son.

    Those two times it took four grown men to subdue him....by the time he arrived at the ER is was totally and completely calm and rational. It seems once the reaction explodes into behavior, it disapates for a period of time and the child is calm ....and often expresses true regret. Can you imagine what it must be like to realize you just had a totally irrational and unexplainable rage? How mortified you would be? But then is starts to gradually build again....
  17. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    One other thing....couselling sessions are very stressful for these kids. They often lose it after the session is over and they relax. It seems like they save it for mom but it really isn't that cut and dry. It's more about the simple fact that they can control what's going on in their brains only so long. And that's without drugs that cause emotional disturbances.

    From the American Psychiatric Association site:

    Self-control requires energy that needs to be restored
    Print version: page 15

    Self-control is like a muscle, and just like a muscle, it tires through use and needs to be strengthened or replenished, suggests a study by psychologist Roy F. Baumeister, PhD, Eppes Professor of Psychology at Florida State University.

    The study--which appears in Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research (Vol. 27, No. 2)--tested three theories on self-control. One theory treats self-control as a cognitive process, one as a learned skill and another as a behavior that requires willpower. Through a series of experiments with 800 participants, Baumeister used the theories to investigate the levels of energy required for exercising self-control and resisting temptation.

    The results from the experiments favored the idea that self-control requires willpower--in which people use energy and strength to overcome a temptation--compared with the other two theories. Baumeister theorizes that when willpower gets tapped out, a person can become vulnerable to impulsive behaviors, such as alcohol abuse.

    For example, in one of his experiments, participants who had skipped a meal were tempted with freshly baked cookies and chocolates. Some participants were instructed to resist the treats and instead eat radishes. They were then asked to complete an unsolvable geometric puzzle. Those who resisted the treats tended to give up faster on the puzzle than participants who were allowed to indulge in the temptation or who had not been tempted with any food. Baumeister believes that they gave up faster because they'd already expended energy exercising self-control.

    A similar pattern emerged in another experiment in which participants were instructed to control their emotional responses--by stifling or amplifying their reactions--as they viewed an upsetting video. The researchers then gauged their physical stamina by testing how long they could squeeze a handgrip device. Participants who controlled their emotions tended to give up faster on the task compared with those who did not have to suppress or control their emotions while watching the video.

    Based on these findings, Baumeister says the research might help explain why some people are more vulnerable than others to substance abuse relapse. Their energy, he says, might have been used elsewhere--in stress-management, for example.

    How then can people restore their self-control? Baumeister says further analysis is under way, but evidence has so far supported sleep and positive emotional experiences, such as humor and laughter, in helping to restore self-control.

    "Self-control is one of the most powerful, beneficial and adaptive traits in human nature," he says.


    The bolded part would apply to any situation requiring willpower, not just drug abuse.
  18. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    If memory serves, this behavior pre-dates the addition of lexapro.
  19. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I have only worried one time that the cops were going to hurt Cory. That was the time we had the stand off in my yard. I dont have the brightest bunch of cops in the world here but they do seem to get it when I say he is bipolar and they try to calm him down even if they put him in cuffs. And trust me, I have seen him in cuffs more times than I can count. But even the time I was afraid they would hurt him they swore to me that they would not hurt him. The worst thing they would do is take him in on a psychiatric hold if he was suicidle or to jail if he was not.
  20. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    It seems though, that whether the diagnosis is right or not, things clearly aren't working the way they are. If mental health treatment can help him, then that needs to be pursued now because if he gets caught up in Department of Juvenile Justice without family pushing for treatment, I doubt he'll have any chance of getting it until after Department of Juvenile Justice is finished with him. Plus, at least in our experience and I realize that it could be a lot different other places, when I went in there (court) with a treatment plan, they worked with it (and in their minds, are still working with it- even though I feel like they are causing more problems then they are solving); when I went in there without a plan to present, they threw other people in there to take over and pursued a plan themselves.

    I would think that your Dad might be a lot happier if he could see a plan being formed and pursued, too. I know it seems like you have to wait to see what is going to happen in court first, and to a certain extent, that is true. But if you leave it all up to them, you might not have any choices left for you or difficult child by the time they are finished. And, I sincerely hope that you are not waiting on S2BX to jump in there and contribute to the cause. This is why in a previous post, I strongly suggested that you start viewing yourself as a single parent and take control of the situation. It probably came across real harsh- which was not my intent. It's just that I believe that if YOU don't take control of this situation by pursuing solutions now, someone else is going to and you might not agree that their solutions are in your or difficult child's best interest, but you'll be stuck with them unless you go to court to get them changed.

    If you got difficult child in a psychiatric hospital, which by the way, here that is easier to do if you take him to the ER than if you call cops- anyway, if you get him in one, then tell them that he cannot come back home, there is better chance that he ends up in a therapuetic environment of some sort, I think.

    PS- I did what Janet says below the last time my difficult child was arrested- I told cops when they called me that my son had mental health issues right away. It didn't help him legally, of course, but it helped them know how to deal with him better. I will do that again in the future if he gets arrested again.