May I ask for your opinions?
- Thread starter Malika
- Start date
rejectedmom
New Member
I think it would be good for both of you if YOU were near friends. You seem so unhappy and lonly where you are.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Ah well... loneliness and unhappiness are states of mind, really. They don't arise because of having or not having friends, lovers, external conditions. Having lots of money might make a slight difference. I JEST 
That sounds like a cliche but it is true. I suppose friends, distractions, etc, would cover up those feelings so one didn't have to face them. In fact I do have quite a lot of friends here (in the nearby town, where I used to have a vacation flat before buying a house in the village here) but what I do miss is Buddhist community. This is really the most important thing to me and yet I am not in regular external contact with it. So to have that would, yes, make a difference to me.
That sounds like a cliche but it is true. I suppose friends, distractions, etc, would cover up those feelings so one didn't have to face them. In fact I do have quite a lot of friends here (in the nearby town, where I used to have a vacation flat before buying a house in the village here) but what I do miss is Buddhist community. This is really the most important thing to me and yet I am not in regular external contact with it. So to have that would, yes, make a difference to me.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for your various opinions, which really are useful to hear and help me clarify my thoughts. Everyone will inevitably have their own take on things of course. Just to point out: although Morocco is of course a patriarchal, Muslim country, now that I am no longer married to a Moroccan and would be going there as a free agent, as it were, I would no longer be subject to that. I would be in Casablanca or Marrakesh, which are very cosmopolitan, modern cities with large numbers of westerners. In many ways, I would be living as in Europe. I do have good friends there, including a couple of real spiritual fellows (one Buddhist, one Sufi Muslim). Also a friend who is the director of the largest English teaching centre who could give me work. Just to make the choice harder
I find decisions in general quite hard because I get lost in abstract thinking about a decision - and this is not relevant, ultimately. An experience is lived, not thought about. Which is why I need to visit schools here and also in Morocco. I do take your point, HaoZi and I think it's a really good one. It's kind of why I wanted to escape from Morocco in the first place! But then I was escaping from an unhappy, unhealthy marriage... Things would be different now and actually within Morocco, I know quite a few feisty, independent and inspiring Moroccan women who are living traditional lives but are not in any way abject followers of their men. So it's not simple.
Happy Christmas to you all.
I find decisions in general quite hard because I get lost in abstract thinking about a decision - and this is not relevant, ultimately. An experience is lived, not thought about. Which is why I need to visit schools here and also in Morocco. I do take your point, HaoZi and I think it's a really good one. It's kind of why I wanted to escape from Morocco in the first place! But then I was escaping from an unhappy, unhealthy marriage... Things would be different now and actually within Morocco, I know quite a few feisty, independent and inspiring Moroccan women who are living traditional lives but are not in any way abject followers of their men. So it's not simple.
Happy Christmas to you all.
This is just a "maybe, hmmm... I wonder" kinda thought, but...
X not wanting J to come back to Morocco?
Might just be pure selfishness... as in, maybe he hopes that when J grows up, J can sponsor him to move to France? or that J will get a better education, and therefore have better income, and so can help support "dad"?
That would explain the "not wanting" J to be there, while X may in fact have a reasonable relationship with J - not making J feel unwanted etc.
I don't know.
X not wanting J to come back to Morocco?
Might just be pure selfishness... as in, maybe he hopes that when J grows up, J can sponsor him to move to France? or that J will get a better education, and therefore have better income, and so can help support "dad"?
That would explain the "not wanting" J to be there, while X may in fact have a reasonable relationship with J - not making J feel unwanted etc.
I don't know.
svengandhi
Well-Known Member
Of the 3 choices given, I would go with number 2.
The school sounds wonderful for any child (except me, who HATES the country and being outdoors, I won't even have a garden) and the city seems like it would be more supportive for you. The idea of an entire Buddhist community vs. just a couple of friends also weighs towards going to the city vs. Morocco. Couldn't you enroll your son in Arabic language and culture classes in the city? As he gets older, visiting his dad for holidays and vacations might be an option but you don't have to decide that now.
Your x is more in touch with what is going on in Morocco now and maybe his not wanting J there is more political than personal. Only you can know what his reasons might possibly be. Personally, I would be terrified of x taking J and not returning him claiming patriarchal rights if you and he lived there. What rights would you have, as a non-Muslim non-Moroccan if x decided he wanted full custody?
The school sounds wonderful for any child (except me, who HATES the country and being outdoors, I won't even have a garden) and the city seems like it would be more supportive for you. The idea of an entire Buddhist community vs. just a couple of friends also weighs towards going to the city vs. Morocco. Couldn't you enroll your son in Arabic language and culture classes in the city? As he gets older, visiting his dad for holidays and vacations might be an option but you don't have to decide that now.
Your x is more in touch with what is going on in Morocco now and maybe his not wanting J there is more political than personal. Only you can know what his reasons might possibly be. Personally, I would be terrified of x taking J and not returning him claiming patriarchal rights if you and he lived there. What rights would you have, as a non-Muslim non-Moroccan if x decided he wanted full custody?
exhausted
Active Member
Mmmm... They all 3 have great high points and also low points. To me the 2 most important factors, above all else, are your hapiness (this will transfer to J) and security. Where will you have both? Your security will be wrapped up in your beliefs,friends, work and knowing J is having his educational needs met. You have to visit the schools. Just because the curriculum and methods are advertised as such does not mean they will be such. I know this as a teacher. The single most important thing for J will be the teacher child fit. All kind of research-international research as well, that says an individual teacher, no matter how the school is billed or structured, makes all the difference in the world. When you go, try to get a feel for the teachers. See many-try to feel the environment. Are there other kids who struggle? Ask for written policies.
I must say that I do think getting out of there has to happen remembering your other posts. And having the income from your place would be a bonus as well. Wishing you peace in this process!
I must say that I do think getting out of there has to happen remembering your other posts. And having the income from your place would be a bonus as well. Wishing you peace in this process!
Malika
Well-Known Member
Yes, good tip, exhausted. Visiting schools is very important. Anything that takes the decision making onto the practical ground of reality rather than endless abstract speculation... I think going to an unknown city where there is both good school for J and buddhist community for me is, while theoretically very attractive, emotionally the most difficult for me in that it would involve going to a place where I know no-one and having to live in an anonymous rented flat. I really do shrink away, I realise, from moving (yet again, I have done it many times in my life!) to somewhere that is undiscovered territory. Not saying that means I am not going to do it, just noting the emotional feeling attached. My comfort zone definitely extends only to staying here or to returning to Morocco, a country with which I am now deeply familiar, after about 6 years there. Difficult to explain the whole cultural thing for J - if we move back to Morocco while he is still a small child, it gives him the option of making his life there (which, for a Moroccan, has advantages - having the option, I mean) because he would speak and write Arabic. An hour or so learning Arabic every week in France is not going to give him that fluency and familiarity. I think of a friend in Marrakesh who told me about the adopted son of friends of hers who moved to America when he was small - now a teenager, he is deeply resentful (apparently) about his Moroccan identity having been taken from him. As for my ex-husband and his claims over J - he actually does not have any!! Not a thing, absolutely no legal rights... When we divorced and went before the family judge in Marrakesh to decide custody of J, at the very last minute, my ex-h proposed to give me full legal custody. I jumped at this like a shot because up until then he had made my life a misery over J, with threats to stop him leaving the country, etc (and in the Muslim world, if the father refuses authorisation to leave the country, the child can never do so - as the amount of times I have been stopped and questioned leaving Morocco with J bears testimony). So... going back to Morocco would be totally on my terms - as my ex-h acknowledged when, after he said he thought it was better for J to be educated in France, declared: "but it's up to you." Other advantage of Morocco is that the cost of living is considerably cheaper than Europe.
I don't know... I suppose I will have to make this decision somehow I'd actually like to go back to England in some ways but believe it or not, I couldn't afford to go and live in my own country. Having sold my house there, I would now find it almost impossible to get a mortgage. Rented accommodation is astronomically expensive. Certainly if I had much more money than I do, I'd feel like I have much more freedom of choice
I don't know... I suppose I will have to make this decision somehow
I'd actually like to go back to England in some ways but believe it or not, I couldn't afford to go and live in my own country. Having sold my house there, I would now find it almost impossible to get a mortgage. Rented accommodation is astronomically expensive. Certainly if I had much more money than I do, I'd feel like I have much more freedom of choice svengandhi
Well-Known Member
If you returned to Morocco, could you ex go to court and re-visit the custody issue? That would be my main concern about going back there.
I didn't get from your initial post that the city you were discussing was someplace you had no ties to. I thought you were discussing going back to some place you had been before, to a Buddhist community you knew. Another question that came up for me - are you raising J as a Muslim or as a Buddhist? If the latter, might it not make it difficult for him, as a little boy with issues to begin with, to be raised as a real minority in a country with a state religion? If you are raising him as a Muslim, then of course being of the majority group might be of benefit to him.
These are tough issues and I feel for you. I have never lived more than 50 miles from where I was born, although I plan to leave here someday.
I didn't get from your initial post that the city you were discussing was someplace you had no ties to. I thought you were discussing going back to some place you had been before, to a Buddhist community you knew. Another question that came up for me - are you raising J as a Muslim or as a Buddhist? If the latter, might it not make it difficult for him, as a little boy with issues to begin with, to be raised as a real minority in a country with a state religion? If you are raising him as a Muslim, then of course being of the majority group might be of benefit to him.
These are tough issues and I feel for you. I have never lived more than 50 miles from where I was born, although I plan to leave here someday.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Hi svengandhi. The Buddhist community I was talking about is the French home of a celebrated teacher, Thich Naht Hanh (he often teaches in the States, actually, which is where I have seen him speaking) to whose teachings I do feel connected, but in the area... I have one translator friend and that is it! Of course one does always make new friends but... I guess at a certain point in life, consolidation becomes more enticing than discovery.
As to whether I am raising J a Muslim or a buddhist, it is not so clear-cut... buddhism is not a set of beliefs to which one clings. It is more a way of understanding the mind, of operating with things as they arise, of trying to act with compassion and insight, and of accepting the value of adhering to ethical principles that are the same as those of most religions . In that sense, it is perfectly compatible for me to have J connect with his Muslim heritage while also talking to him (as I do), about Jesus and Buddha. I feel deep interest in and respect for Islam and Christianity (I don't know so much about Judaism) and I have friends who are devout practioners of both, whom i equally respect and admire... kind of difficult to explain, perhaps, because we are used to seeing things in sectarian ways. I would like J to grow up with ethics and values. I don't mind where they come from. For him to be a good Muslim would be a fine thing for me. Not everyone understands this, by the way! I have one supposedly buddhist friend who was berating me for "not believing in my own values" by not wanting to teach these to J to the exclusion of all else... but life is more complex, more fluid than that. For him to have access to the Muslim world is actually very important, in terms of his connections with his Moroccan family and culture. And so... I take him to the mosque on a Sunday afternoon
As to whether I am raising J a Muslim or a buddhist, it is not so clear-cut... buddhism is not a set of beliefs to which one clings. It is more a way of understanding the mind, of operating with things as they arise, of trying to act with compassion and insight, and of accepting the value of adhering to ethical principles that are the same as those of most religions . In that sense, it is perfectly compatible for me to have J connect with his Muslim heritage while also talking to him (as I do), about Jesus and Buddha. I feel deep interest in and respect for Islam and Christianity (I don't know so much about Judaism) and I have friends who are devout practioners of both, whom i equally respect and admire... kind of difficult to explain, perhaps, because we are used to seeing things in sectarian ways. I would like J to grow up with ethics and values. I don't mind where they come from. For him to be a good Muslim would be a fine thing for me. Not everyone understands this, by the way! I have one supposedly buddhist friend who was berating me for "not believing in my own values" by not wanting to teach these to J to the exclusion of all else... but life is more complex, more fluid than that. For him to have access to the Muslim world is actually very important, in terms of his connections with his Moroccan family and culture. And so... I take him to the mosque on a Sunday afternoon
svengandhi
Well-Known Member
I have always found Buddhism interesting but I enjoy being Jewish too much to explore anything else except as an intellectual curiousity.
When you take him to the mosque, does he interact and get religious instruction? I have studied some Islam and believe it to be, in its true form, a beautiful religion. There is much to be said about raising him in accordance with his family's beliefs, especially since it seems that your Buddhist ideals can be integrated into the Islamic principles he will learn. I am still leaning towards the city for you and J with summers in Morocco till he's old enough to decide where he wants to study.
Slightly off topic, but one of the saddest stories I know is that of a friend of mine, here in the US, who chose to raise her children as Catholics rather than in her own Muslim faith because she was afraid of how they would be treated. Meanwhile, their Catholic father beat her, cheated on her and finally left her and never saw the children (that's the good part of the story). She still continued their Catholic instruction.
When you take him to the mosque, does he interact and get religious instruction? I have studied some Islam and believe it to be, in its true form, a beautiful religion. There is much to be said about raising him in accordance with his family's beliefs, especially since it seems that your Buddhist ideals can be integrated into the Islamic principles he will learn. I am still leaning towards the city for you and J with summers in Morocco till he's old enough to decide where he wants to study.
Slightly off topic, but one of the saddest stories I know is that of a friend of mine, here in the US, who chose to raise her children as Catholics rather than in her own Muslim faith because she was afraid of how they would be treated. Meanwhile, their Catholic father beat her, cheated on her and finally left her and never saw the children (that's the good part of the story). She still continued their Catholic instruction.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Lol, svengandhi, Buddhism is FULL of Jewish people! Jew-Buhs... I have a Buddhist friend in Canada, originally Jewish, who sends her son to "Jewish school" to connect him with that part of his heritage and culture... And J goes to what we call "Arabic school" at the mosque - it's rather tedious as far as I can make out, the children just repeating sentences about Islam by rote and colouring various pictures illustrating the life and festivals of a Muslim. They don't teach the prayers until a child is around seven so he doesn't actually go to the mosque as such yet.
There are always two ways of seeing a religious path... from the "bottom", fundamental level in which the rules and creeds are primordial - always involving rejection of other people and their ways of seeing the truth - and from a higher level, in which one sees something more essential and other religious paths are not threatening or mistaken... If I would like anything for J, I would like him to have this larger view of Islam. But I don't think you teach that with your words... I think you teach it with your life, with your actions. That's the difficult bit
I have a Buddhist friend in Canada, originally Jewish, who sends her son to "Jewish school" to connect him with that part of his heritage and culture... And J goes to what we call "Arabic school" at the mosque - it's rather tedious as far as I can make out, the children just repeating sentences about Islam by rote and colouring various pictures illustrating the life and festivals of a Muslim. They don't teach the prayers until a child is around seven so he doesn't actually go to the mosque as such yet. There are always two ways of seeing a religious path... from the "bottom", fundamental level in which the rules and creeds are primordial - always involving rejection of other people and their ways of seeing the truth - and from a higher level, in which one sees something more essential and other religious paths are not threatening or mistaken... If I would like anything for J, I would like him to have this larger view of Islam. But I don't think you teach that with your words... I think you teach it with your life, with your actions. That's the difficult bit
H
HaoZi
Guest
Is there a way you can arrange a visit to this other school for your son? Maybe a firsthand look at how interesting he finds it will help. And maybe he can make some new friends while he's there.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Yes, HaoZi, the school has an Open Day in February which I plan to attend. Meantime, just to add to the confusion, I have found a Waldorf school (they exist in the States, well known for ADHD kids) about an hour from here, which means I could rent somewhere locally and then come back here for occasional weekends, when the house is not let out. I don't know... some brilliant shaft of certainty will strike!
Another thing to take into consideration: living/housing condition.
It seems like a kid like J needs to be able to run around and not be cooped up in an apartment. Having a yard, or being close to a park, forest or other nature outlet should be a priority.
For us, our big yard (we actually live in the woods) is certainly V's best therapy. Without it: it would be a nightmare!
It seems like a kid like J needs to be able to run around and not be cooped up in an apartment. Having a yard, or being close to a park, forest or other nature outlet should be a priority.
For us, our big yard (we actually live in the woods) is certainly V's best therapy. Without it: it would be a nightmare!
Malika
Well-Known Member
Yes, you're quite right, ktllc. One of the advantages of the hour-away Waldorf school option is that it is in a part of the country where I could rent a big house with huge garden for the same price as a tiny flat in the city. The option that loses out here is the Buddhist community (although there is some kind of monastery not too far away). Which just illustrates the fact that one really cannot have everything.
Malika
Well-Known Member
This is a tiny Waldorf school, Steely - right out in the countryside and about 18 kids in the elementary section, in a single class. I would need to go and visit of course, first on my own, and talk to the principal about J and his ADHD. It comes at a cost - it's a private school and though not dear compared to English private schools, which are astronomically expensive, it is still a budgetary consideration... Here is the link to it, if anyone is interested: in French, of course, but there are lots of pictures!
Acceuil de notre site steiner waldorf en ariège midi pyrénée
Above all, J needs an environment that will help him tame and channel his undoubted aggression and potential violence (I say that very advisedly). That helps him feel good enough and safe enough that he doesn't need to bully the world to get attention. Probably an alternative school would be best for that, yes.
Acceuil de notre site steiner waldorf en ariège midi pyrénée
Above all, J needs an environment that will help him tame and channel his undoubted aggression and potential violence (I say that very advisedly). That helps him feel good enough and safe enough that he doesn't need to bully the world to get attention. Probably an alternative school would be best for that, yes.
Wow, the school seems really nice. I like Waldorf to begin with . I'm bias!
But like you said, the school is quite pricey for it being so small...You might also want to make sure they have actual training in Special Education. Our kids ususally need special accomodation that goe beyond regular kids. Know what I mean?? It takes a trained eye to fully understand the issue(s).
. I'm bias!But like you said, the school is quite pricey for it being so small...You might also want to make sure they have actual training in Special Education. Our kids ususally need special accomodation that goe beyond regular kids. Know what I mean?? It takes a trained eye to fully understand the issue(s).
Malika
Well-Known Member
Oh, you raise an important point, ktllc! I don't expect there would be any special provision, but I suspect that the Waldorf Steiner system has a different understanding of things like ADHD. But I have to compare that against the fact that there is no special provision at the moment... I've done my best with the teacher but really she doesn't take me seriously when I say that J has issues beyond the normal. I mean he is so CLEARLY ADHD or ADHD-type to anyone with any knowledge that it's ridiculous, really.
