Meeting with son and wife

susiestar

Roll With It
I am glad you got to see him and realize that you were pining for something that wasn't there, so that you can grieve for it and move on.

This is NOT a healthy person or a good, loving father/husband/friend/person. Just isn't. Justify what you want about how he is with others - these are his faults and not yours and his rules/limits are NOT because he was adopted late or whatever. The circumstances of his birth and early childhood MAY have made him worse, but something was very wrong to begin with. I know you have an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) child and S's behavior is not like your other child's Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). It is still Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD).

I am willing to bet he is a lot more like the hubby in sleeping with the enemy than just wanting everyhting perfectly neat. He has those rules for you to just make a phone call. There is NO WAY that he doesn't have these rules for his wife, child, inlaws, and everyone else in his life. He also will make darn sure they know they better kiss his feet and lick his boots for the privilege of following his rules because he makes so much money for htem.

I know you likely cannot see this in him. I just know too many people like that and it is not possible for them to be a loving parent or spouse or friend. The world must conform to their rules and if something is wrong in their world, even just having an off day, it is because someone in their world didn't follow the rules perfectly enough. And that person gets punished harshly.

I am sure he told his wife lies about you as a way to isolate her from your side of the family. Her parents moving in, likely from china or wherever, will only last as long as they do hwat he wnats and attempt to make no contacts outside the family and the church members they approve of.

I think he threw away a blessing when he tossed your love and family away. You can now spend your love and attention on the four children who love you and are your kids. Just be SURE that you ahve a will that specifically says that he is lelft nothing or even better from a legal standpoint, that he inherits the sum of $1. Some states won't let you cut a child out completely no matter hwat and adoptive children count the same as bio children for that rule. So leaving him a dollar shows you thought of him, that he wasn't forgotten, and you didn't want him to have naything. It takes away all grounds for him to sue for a part of the estate. Even though he has a lot of money, he seems to feel you owe him something and he IS the type to go after it - repayment for those bills he didn't pay but has likely convinced himself he did on some level, if nothing else.
 

timer lady

Queen of Hearts
MWM, I'm glad you had the mtg. If nothing else you know where you stand & can move forward.

I'm sort of preparing myself for this type of a relationship with the tweedles once they're grown & on their own. I expect they'll have a list of complaints & issues.

You did good & now you can move forward with-o wondering.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Thanks to all.

On the issue of the will, S. was such a responsible young man that we made him executor, but we are cutting him out of everything. It won't matter to him...he has much more than we will have to give him. Plus...he really is not a family member anymore (his choice). I will definitely get his done. Hub and I were talking about this the other day. Sadly, he will inherit a considerable of money from his wealthier father who fails to see what he is...and will not give more to the kids who need it m ore and who were always there for him. That's just who ex is...a very nice, naive man who I still care deeply for, although not in a romantic way. I would like to wake him up, but there is no way to control HIM either. I'm not going to even talk to him in detail about this meeting with S. He so badly wanted it to go well so that all of us could get together for the holidays. He figured that if S. and I worked it out, I could help him grow close to Pastry Chef again, but that is just not going to happen. He has had a few bouts with her SO, yelling at him about how their relationship was meaningless because they were having sex before marriage (haha). He and his wife did not. If you knew him, you would believe it. He is very pious and judges everyone against his own standards, although he calls his standards "The Bible." Right. Jesus was such an intolerant guy...not.

You have all helped me a lot. Anyone who has any other suggestions on rituals or suggestions on how to gain 100% acceptance that this young man is "dead to me" (although not dead)..I welcome suggestions.

One good thing: I have never appreciated my loving family members more than now. I believe every experience we have is deliberate, in a spiritual sense, and that everything happens for a reason. Perhaps this happened to show me what real love is and to make me cherish what I have...and how to let go of a pipe dream.

All of my life since S. has come into it, I have thought of him as an exceptional person and this attitude of mine made him able to shame me: I wasn't smart enough or a good enough housekeeper or a good enough mother or blah, blaha, blah...I was just unworthy of being this Exalted One's mom. You know what? The meeting brought me down to earth. It was a lesson for me...mainly, don't elevate another human's worth. We are all just people doing the best we can...some are nicer than others.

If S. wanted his wife to be ok with me, she would be. S. chose not to tell her that I was non-threatening. I am repelled by this. All I ever did was love him, in spite of my errors which I was more than willing to correct. I can not imagine ever wanting a relationship with him again. He was attempting to almost dehumanize me.

I am soooooooooooooooo sorry that I spent my money I could have used to go to Chicago, but it was something I had to do. Maybe I can still find a way to come out. If not, you are all in my heart and I love you all to pieces. You are my safe haven and I hope I am the same for you. (((Hugs)))
 

slsh

member since 1999
MWM - my heart aches that the meeting went the way it did. I was hoping it would be a fresh start for all of you. I guess it is for you. It saddens me that he will not allow a fresh start for himself with his family, and that he carries all of this baggage with him.

Please - don't be hard on yourself for the "nastygrams". They didn't cause this situation and, knowing you, I doubt they were actually "nasty"; were probably more the appropriately hurt feelings of a mother.

I think you should be proud of the fact that you did raise him to be a successful, productive man - and I wouldn't take much stock in his revisionist recollection of family history. He's obviously wound a little tightly, especially in terms of "family", but.... our kids are who they are.

I'm truly sorry that he was so hurtful to you, but am glad that you have answers (of a sort). I'm especially glad you and your other kiddos got to end the trip on a positive note.

Gentle hugs to you.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
Wow, what an intense time you've had through this reunion-all of it just jaw dropping! I am so sorry for this last kick in the teeth from the ungrateful and severely emotionally S you once called your son. It's a sad ending in one way, but a happier new beginning for YOU. He doesn't realize what he's truly missing in having you and your family in his life, but then, in is state of mind, he wouldn't be able to appreciate the richness of 'family' anyway. You, however, can be at peace knowing you went and sought out a reconciliation, tried to make some sort of peace with him and his....the way it turned out is on him. I would never place myself in a position to be humiliated and dehumanized by him again. Big gentle hugs to you, now go love up and enjoy your true loved ones!
 

Mattsmom277

Active Member
An idea re: your request for suggestions on things to do to help you heal. I was thinking maybe a letting go ceremony of sorts, for you, not for anyone else. Perhaps a little bundle containing a few pics of him young and how you would prefer to remember him, a goodbye letter with no regrets just wishes for his future on his own with his wife and children, anything else you felt meaningful. Then perhaps a quiet few moments alone outside with a little fire and glass of wine, box of kleenex. Taking some time to reflect back on the moments that made him special to you as you raised him, sending the love you have for him into the cosmos symbolically to him, then reflecting on the peace you wish for now that it is clear he is not again going to be a part of your life or family. Then when ready, letting that little bundle turn to ash and blow away to the winds, as your pain must for you to heal. Alternately, you could set the bundle onto something floating and let it go on the water somewhere. I do think that somehow it might help you if you find a symbolic way to release all the good and bad emotions you are bound to have regarding your son.

I liked the comment you made "I feel freer". That is what I'm sure we all here wish for you. A freeing experience to move on without him in your life, which is how its been for a long time, but minus the unknown reasons, the conflicting ideas of letting go or reaching out.

Wishing you peace at long last and I also want to acknowledge you as "Mother".
 

mstang67chic

Going Green
I'm so sorry that things didn't turn out the way you wanted. No one should have to hear those things from their child. But, with that said.....Wow. If you were dating someone like that I would tell you to run. Run, run, run, run, run. I'm sorry too that you won't be able to make it to Chicago but you're right. You needed to find out one way or another.

As for dealing with it.....I like the idea of a small fire. A nice long letter with all of your feelings and hurt, some wine and a fire. I know Shiva takes longer than that but maybe you could incorporate part of it into that.

Hugs. I wish things had been happier.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
MWM,

You know what? It's a good thing that you are who you are. It's a great thing for your Son that you have remained so loving all these years even if you were sending nasygrams because without anger - there really isn't feeling, without feeling you are void of emotion, without emotion; you are void of the ability to love. Without love? You are dead inside. Some people like you and a lot of others in the world are fueled by love. The wanting and necessity to please others, to make things good for others, and sometimes you get blindsided by so much passion that your emotions take over and well you get desperate to connect and it comes out like a nasygram. The recipient in this case failed to see that what was really an attempt to reach out and be a part of the life of a son she raised.

On the other side of that exact same Mother / Son coin? The one undeniable thing in all of the two lives that were once under the same roof? You raised this child. Now, you didn't raise him to be callous, or uncaring, hateful or mean. Those are traits that he's harbored in his heart or polished himself along the path of his own life. Those feelings he gets to claim and deal with all on his own, as a man. If you will - think of them as the link in the chain he's forged in life - just like Jacob Marley in the Christmas Carol when the ghost comes to warn Ebenezer Scrooge. It's not much different. Ebenezers childhood wasn't a bad one either. HIs adulthood was his own. His choices and decisions; his own. Just like your son. Those were things that you could not predict, or change for him. Try as you may - it's whom he's chosen to become because - of his anger - WHICH sadly is something that has fueled him to become what some would call successful.

I say some because for all his money, for all his religious rantings, for all his smugness, and double standards to forget his roots and deny the only Mother he's really had in life? The one that raised him and still harbor such anger in his heart? He's not happy, he's not at peace, he's not a leader among men, he's not an example I'd want my children to aspire to - not really. I can have all the money in the world, but if I don't have a content heart, if I don't have a satisfied heart, if my walk isn't right, true, just? I'm not really successful - and so for him? I feel such an emptiness that he covers up with such bravado - so many rules, so many "if you want to be my friend, here is a list of how you must go about it." WHAT a RIDICULOUS and HURT person he must be even in his own mind - to try and control the only person in his life that loved him without ANY conditions from the first. You never looked at this small, wonderful Chinese child and said -"For you to live in MY home - you must -----and fill in the blanks." BUT I would suspect in HIS mind - this is how he feels, and this is how he is trying to make others feel that are around him. He's got a very twisted view of how things were in his life, and the person that he would REALLY like to be angry with and really LIKE to have it out with? He can't - so he picks the one person in his life - that he CAN - YOU. Because he knows he can hurt you, and to him? That feels JUST. His Mother.

I think if you DID NOT MATTER TO HIM AT ALL......If he felt NOTHING AT ALL? He never would have initiated a meeting whatsoever. But it's taken a little boy years and years to come to grips with how much anger he's had pent up, except at 34 - he had to be cool, and collected------not yelling, or sporadic or loose face. And to him? Yes, he's told off "his Mother" because he was abandoned.....and I believe in doing the same to you? He feels he's justified what he feels was once done to him. It's more like a little boy saying "Well there.......HOW DOES THAT FEEL?" and it's not YOU.....that I think he's trying to attack...in his mind whether he'd ever admit it or not? He's attacking his Father and Mother from China. (or from here wherever he was originally from)

I'm not sure about anything psychologically standing - but from an adopted kids point of view? I may be closer than most. And I would suspect also - that if he does have such money as you say - he's TRIED to find his birth parents and failed. Had he found them? His anger would have been directed at them. (just a guess) Unless he had found them, and was told lies. Hard to say.

As far as him being dead to you? Well - I think that's your right and choice. However you need to do it to get over the pain of what you are going through. When I'm ever asked? I find it's easier sometimes to just say I have one son. Some days I don't want to get into the explaination of the deaths of the other two. Or I don't want to explain about them being adopted or how it all came about. Other days I just say I had three boys, one is living and it will be our great joy if he makes it to 21 - what a handful......hoping they skip the Oh I am so sorry business.....or ask at what ages we had them in the home or how it all happened. IN any event? You will find your niche....and like Dude tells me - I saved the best for last. lol.

Sending you hugs - big healing ones. and a cuppa joe and a tissue, and a puppy -------lol
Star
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
I can't express how genuinely sorry I am for your loss. Everyone in the family had so hoped this would be a "baby step" toward a new connection. Evidently it did bring clarity and the full awareness of who he is an adult. Although I reference it so often (some must think I'm senile due to the repetition) I once again see a situation where the Serenity Prayer is "on target". You showed the "courage to change the things you mght" (I so admire your dedication) and now you have "the wisdom to know the difference" so you can find "the serenity to accept the things you can not change". Had you not found that courage to make a meeting happen you would have lived the remainder of your life in confused turmoil. I truly anticipate that after an appropriate period of mourning you will be able to shut that door and purge all the "what if's" out of your heart and mind. I hope you and your family will find closure in knowing that he is physically healthy and living a life that he embraces. Then you all will be able to live in peace.

How active was the Mediator? Did she just sit in the room or did she attempt to trigger dialog from you both? I assume he didn't inquire about anyone else in the family. Sadly I "see" a number of disorders manifested in his behavior. But...he is comfortable in his distored world and you are wise to shut the door and move on. I will continue to send caring thoughts and prayers your way as you travel this final road to closure. Hugs. DDD
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Thank you all again. I knew I came to the right place to vent.

Actually, I can't remember my "nastygrams." I remember sending nice letters alternating with meaner letters, but can't recall their content. They may have been very nasty, although I'm sure I never threatened him or his wife with any harm. Scott grew up with me; he knows I am non-violent. He criticized me once for being too soft and he believes in spanking, but he had never been spanked.

For all of you who feel badly for me, don't. If he had been more accepting, more forgiving, more flexible and still did not want a relationship, it would have hurt a lot more. His callousness and obvious lack of missing me or the rest of the family for five years sent a clear message to me: We are moot in his life, whatever his life is like. I can not guess to know what is in his heart, how he treats others who don't measure up to his standards, his memories of his childhood (true or untrue...they are real to him). It made it much easier, after I left, to reflect on the situation and to see that there is nothing for me to fight for. He DID say...

"It will take time to build up trust again." I agree with those words. However, it is virtually impossible to build up trust when one is limited to phone calls, with specific reasons attached, at two month intervals and stilted visits at restaurants or his church once or twice a year. When I go to Illinois, there are many people I need to visit...my 87 year old father, my sister, my daughter and her significant other, sometimes my friend too. I only come for a few days as I can not afford days in a motel. I do not wish to bump somebody who loves me off of my schedule to do this. It will not make any difference to him. What I learned is, his family doesn't matter to him. So I am forgiving him and letting him go.

Now I can say, without feeling wishy-washy about it, that I have four kids and one grandchildren.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
Hope you don't mind but I just thought of one other question. I won't keep it up...I promise. Was there any photo or mention of your grandchild? DDD
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
No. I've seen pictures of him on Facebook, but S. and K. did not offer a picture. That's ok. I never met him so I can't miss him.

S. did not want to see an updated picture of his younger sister either (Jumper). She was ten t he last time he saw her and I have a really nice new pix of her, but he wasn't interested. More proof that he is not really interested in the family and is not a part of us.
 

Steely

Active Member
Just wanted to send affirming hugs and strength.....I am glad you are on your way to closure. I like the idea of some sort of ceremony, religious, or not, to help facilitate closure.

As I read all of the statements that S. said, I could only think one word, personality disorder. He is "charming & successful" but many sociopaths are just that. They only care about what gives them immediate pleasure or gain. You do not fill one of those roles in his life, so you are deleted from his list of people for whom he "cares" about. It is really that simple in these people's minds - and no matter how many letters or non-letters you send, or how many times you reach out to him, nothing will change his mind about you being be in his life - except of course if you suddenly started handing him money or fame.

In no way can you be held responsible for any of his issues. These are his own, that he created in his head, many of them false it sounds like.

Letting go seems like the only answer....which should feel, hopefully rather freeing to you....because you no longer have this albatross of guilt, or need, or anger towards him......you are now able to live again, freely.

:beautifulthing:

Hugs.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
And the Mediator said nothing? I'm really curious what her role was...maybe just an escort for you. Sad and strange.
DDD
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Good point DDD.

I'm betting a million bucks, this will zip around that church like a wild fire drowned in fuel. I bet that mediator now has S's number, if not they'd have to be awfully naive, doubtful given they're a mediator. Makes me sort of smile wickedly to think of that. I bet S didn't count on his church members gossiping about him. Phht been my experience that it's one the things they seem to do best. lol Odds are he has business contacts ect via this church. Most likely the only reason he is an active member. Makes him look good publicly.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Hi and thanks again.

I need to clear a few things up. The mediator was a wonderful older woman who donates her time and I don't think she will tell anyone about this meeting. I really don't. She did ask questions and intercede in a passive way, but, because nobody told her any different, clearly she believed everything she heard from them. The part about the letters was true. I blush just thinking about sending them and how he has archived them into his computer for posterity...lol. I feel like such a fool, but I did it and I can't take it back. Now the stuff about how he paid the bills and budgeted for us, I believe he thought he did these things, but he most certainly did NOT pay the bills. Moving on...

This is the second biggest church in the country. No, the rumors will not fly. Nor do I believe S. joined the church to look good. He believes he is a very strict and obedient Christian. Of that I have no doubt.

I don't believe he has antisocial personality disorder. He does not offend against the law. If anything, he is anal about this. He just has very and often unrealistic expectations of others. Whether or not ALL others count, I don't have a clue. I could not tell you how he interacts with her family. My guess is, she would leave him if he wasn't great to her relatives, so he is. That's why he would let them stay with him...my ex said he rolled his eyes while K. was talking about how her parents will be moving in with them. At the very least, to me that indicates that he is not thrilled, but is willing. If he has any issues they are likely adoption related...perhaps some attachment and abandonment issues. I'd rather not analyze him as I have issues myself (don't we all?). All that matters in my own life is that he has no place in it. And that will not bother him one bit. His wedding alone told us where we stand with him...not one of us was in the wedding party and Jumper and Sonic were excluded from the reception. That is when the trouble started, and that is when I first realized just how little we mattered to him. Not just me. All of us. I don't think his father holds a special place in his heart either and I'm quite sure that the three years he "punished" by ex (Lord knows why) he did not miss him.

I do believe he loves his wife and son. I do not know if she is obedient to him. I don't know the dynamics of their marriage other than he is protective of her feelings (as he should be). This is not a totally bad person. He doesn't work in MY life, but I hope he has a very happy life in his own life. I hope he wishes the same for me, but I doubt he even gives it a thought. It is not his fault he did not attach. I am beginning to realize that it is not MY fault either. THAT is part of the closure I needed.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
MWM,

I don't know your son, and speculation is just that. However I do know from the way you write about your family and yourself that you are just as human as anyone else. But the things that make you unique to your friends and family are your abilities, your perceptions, and your vulnaribilities as well as your goals. Personally I find you to be a strong, sensitive, shy, caring, loving person who would go out of their way to not hurt anyone. A trusted friend, a wonderful Mom, who maybe worries a little too much about getting things just right for everyone - even the dog. :flirtysmile3:But all those wonderful qualities that make you you? And even the ones that you maybe don't like about yourself? Constantly evolve - even with your children and their lives. As to S. and his life? It's also evolving. I wish him the very best.

For you both, this is just one more evolution - and you handled it brilliantly. Quite an example for the rest of us. I'm proud to know you and have you as a friend. Even one I haven't met - yet.
 

lovemysons

Well-Known Member
MWM
Loving and caring thoughts coming your way.

As you know, My oldest difficult child has a "value system" now (In the name of Christianity) that does not include me or the rest of our family much these days. While I am happy that he is functional now (not lost in drugs/alcohol at the moment) I cannot participate in his life or the life of his daughter (my granddaughter) at this time.
It is their loss, not ours.

Maybe someday S will quietly reflect in honesty at all you truly gave him in life.
I do love what DDD says about the Serenity Prayer at this time..."Accept the things I cannot change" S.
"Courage to change the things I can" Me..."And the Wisdom to know the difference".

May you find peace in your heart.
With love,
LMS
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Star, you're a doll.

LMS, I don't think his Christianity is a part of this. If it is, well, I can't help it. My belief system is very strong and I do believe in God, but I don't and never will again belong to an organized religion. Probably just one more "X" against me...lol.
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
I skimmed over the responses, so forgive me if I repeat anything already said.
I'm glad you got closure, and a mock funeral or some such might well help clear your head as well as your heart. I feel sorry for his wife, even raised to be a "Hello Kitty" woman she has to see how other women live to some degree. "Neat freak" Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) type, I can't even imagine how perfect he expects her to keep everything. I wonder if his kid will decide that he's too rigid and he wants more freedom and fights everything to get it.
Anyway, *hugs* on the whole thing.
 
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