Mom to Mom

[barbie]

We always have that gut thing going on when your insides scream "This is NOT right". I have been having more and more of them. Since Eric started on the risperdal, its been like night and day, he is doing so much better, but Danae is picking up where he left off, and she is worrying me. I can't get past it.

Let's start with yes she has been diagnosed as ADHD, but we know its usually never just ADHD, it has it's companions. She is currently taking Vyvanse 50. Things that were masked by the ADHD symptoms are becoming more prevalent and "concentrated" as it were. Just this week alone, we have had drama every single day. Monday she had a tantrum because she didnt like chicken.. that her favorite dinner. Tuesday she had a tantrum that seemed to last forever because she said she wanted to glue this paper she had made into a triangle. Wednesday she woke up at 4am, no lie, 4 am woke up the entire house because she was scared of Linda's "creepy" porcelain doll. Thursday she had yet another breakdown, firstly at the daycare where she punched a litte boy in the eye, because he did a flip and accidently hit her forehead. While the behavior therapist was here, she's seen them alot, this tantrum because she had to share the markers. Today, today I got a call from her teacher concerned because Danae had not turned in her homework in three weeks. She was also concerned because in her words Danae, doesnt smile alot. Which is odd because we take an hour everyday for homework only.

My little girl is not a happy one, she is constantly anxious and nervous, she is scared and seems to be in a never-ending tantrum. She is excited and talking excessantly and doesnt stop moving or fidgeting, having mania and then the depression. Our behavior specialist, Ms. Dawn says we are going to be working on self esteem with Danae for a long time, like the forseeable future. She has yet to hear Danae make a single positive statement about herself. I have this feeling in my gut that if I dont get more "intense" or better medication management she is not going to let herself have the chance to survive these challenges. I see her being promiscuous, because girls who have low self esteem, look to validate themselves through sex, and only validate the negative when the boy doesnt return the feelings. Or worse not making it to that point at all ever.

I would like to have opinions, nothing concrete, but I do have ideas like bi-polar vs. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) vs. ODD. Danae is a lying to my face, even she has been caught in the act, she is having constant break downs, extreme hyperness, she is a perfectionist and picks at her skin, she gave her a bald spot on her head from the picking, I am just looking for opinions. Any input is appreciated.

 

[susiestar]

I don't have the answers for everything. Your little girl is lucky because she has a mom who cares and pays attention to that screaming voice that tells you when something is wrong. ALWAYS pay attention to the instince, even if YOU have to tantrum to get teh therapists and doctors to pay attention to you. (the only really huge major mistakes I made with Wiz were when I followed some "expert" who only saw my kid for a few minutes a month instead of my instincts.)

Is Danae in any occupational therapy for sensory issues? thank you was very anxious, VERY down on himself, NO self confidence or esteem, many major meltdowns, seemed very unhappy. He was about 4. I got him in to see an Occupational Therapist AND into the psychiatrist Wiz was seeing. I wanted a psychiatrist baseline, just in case we needed it.

As I sat and watched the Occupational Therapist (OT) do the brushing and joint compressions I could see and FEEL the anxiety drain from my son. She did the joint compressions (very gentle pressure on the joints that help somehow, but help BIGTIME) as thank you was drawing along a line in a circle and tehn cutting the circle out. Before the compressions he couldn't stay on the line with the marker, told us how useless he was, etc... THEN she did the compressions. He was MUCH more able to stay on the line, able to hold the scissors longer and use them more effectively, and actually said that he did a pretty good job.

It was the FIRST time I had EVER heard him be satisfied with something he did (and around here when we do projects, art, whatever we don't make mistakes, we "customize" - he ahs heard that from when he was in the womb - whatever you do, if you are trying, is fine.)

for me it was a total shock and eye opener. I had read The Out of Sync Child but not totally grasped what sensory problems were or how to help them. But Occupational Therapist (OT) has made a huge change in my son. The psychiatrist even told us that he would NOt give a diagnosis if the child had sensory integration disorder until the child has had a year or more of treatment or showed totally no change after several months of Occupational Therapist (OT).

Get a PRIVATE Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. Schools CAN evaluation for Occupational Therapist (OT), but it only addresses Occupational Therapist (OT) issues that impact academics, NOT all aspects of a child's life.

This is where I suggest you start. You can start ehre and move through until you figure out what Danae needs.

 

[SRL]

Barbie, since you asked for opinions, as you already have a child on the Autistic Spectrum, I'd have her evaluated for Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)'s before expanding the medication search. Another forum I visit has a number of families with more than one kid on the spectrum and they always say that the sibs present differently (ie one more social, more verbal, more anxiety, less obsessive, etc). This is especially true when comparing sibs of different gender since girls, for example, with Aspberger's Syndrome can look different than boys. If it turns up that one sib meets clinical criteria and the other is borderline, it similarly will make comparisons more difficult.

I'll second the vote on getting an Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation.

 

[Marguerite]

You said it, SRL. Another important point - every kid is different, even in the same family. And yet another point - girls on the spectrum are often VERY different. Everything you describe, it all fits with what I have seen in my own kids that is Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). The picking (especially the scalp), the fussiness, the food issues, the anxiety (especially the anxiety). The observation "she never smiles" doesn't necessarily mean the child is unhappy - a smile takes energy and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids make really good poker players. Too often we judge Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids by how WE think they should be expressing their feelings.

You say she tells lies - in what way? ALL kids will lie with "I didn't do it" especially to get out of trouble. I think sometimes we're far too critical of the lie without really digging down to find out why. Once you know why, it's easier to give a good lesson in why not. The lies to worry about are the lies where you can't find a reason and especially where the lie is complex, detailed and clearly fantasy. You also must be VERY careful how you question a child (or how other people do) in order to avoid leading the child or communicating to the child the sort of answer you're expecting. Some kids, including ASDs, can pick up enough form these cues to tell a complex lie that in fact the questioner has helped invent often without even realising it. And from my own experience of easy child 2/difficult child 2 - girls are better at lying, even Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) ones.

We're not saying that's what this is - only that it should be high on the list of possibilities, it would be very difficult to be certain it's ruled out. Even though we've been told years ago that easy child 2/difficult child 2 doesn't have Asperger's, somehow it's back on the table again.

Marg

 

[barbie]

When I say that Danae lies. I asked flat out on Thursday, Danae did you finish your homeowrk, yes mommy I did. Friday her teacher calls us Danae hasnt turned in homework in three weeks. Thats a small lie, she has peed in the garbage cans in her room and led about it, she poured water into our goldfishes bowl til it overflowed, we saw her doing it from outside, she lied did the ugly face crying screaming about how she didnt do it. Simple things, big things, she lies

 

[Marguerite]

OK< they are lies but not complex ones. She's not going into fantastical details about how aliens landed in the backyard, took her for a long ride in their flying saucer and then turned her homework into a weird alien experiment. THAT'S the kind of lie an autistic kid can't tell. But the "Yes, it's done as you asked, "or the "I didn't break the vase," - yes, these are the lies all kids tell, autistic or otherwise.

A funny example (well, funny now) - difficult child 3 was a baby, not yet a year old, trying to walk. He was pulling himself up on furniture and already a skilled climber. He could climb almost to ceiling height to get to what he wanted, usually a key to break into what he wanted (like the coin money box that sorted coins according to size - if only I knew then what I know now!).

I was sitting in the living room with a visitor, a neighbour. difficult child 3 had crawled off into the kitchen. We heard a crash - the neighbour rushed in to the kitchen ahead of me, he said he found difficult child 3 surrounded by the biscuit tin which he'd pulled down. difficult child 3 was stuffing biscuits under his fat little legs, trying to hide the evidence! He had wanted a biscuit, I was occupied so he decided to climb on the kitchen chair to get what he wanted; but the tin crashed down emptying contents everywhere.

What got us - the biscuit-stuffing under the legs. As if we wouldn't notice! Plus a determination to still try to get away with it, even when caught red-handed...

So even though difficult child 3 was non-verbal, I consider this to be his first lie.

All kids lie to get out of trouble or to deflect blame. Although they can be about big things (expensive vase broken; child digging in the garden while wearing Mummy's jewellery, and losing/breaking it) the lie itself is not as bad/worrying as a child who makes up lies for apparently no reason - "I saw my friend steal a toy from the store yesterday" when friend was not in the store at all. husband's cousin made up stories about me, told his parents that as we sat in the back seat of the car driving home (husband's father and uncle were in the front seat) that I had been 'feeling him up'. OK, maybe it was teenage boy with a fantasy that motivated him, but to tell his parents? That was bizarre. He's said/done other bizarre things over the years so he is a worry.

Barbie - keep an open mind on the various possibilities. These lies do not in any way rule out Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD).

Marg

 

[barbie]

Danae had her psychiatrist appointment today, secondary to her ADHD diagnosis, he said she has borderline personality disorder, which is a bit more concerning but still fits her behavior and her fathers. He was in an "institution" for a year before I met him, noone told me until after I had her. He got up one night and was going to attempt to off his family, mom, stepdad, and brother. He has been in jail now since Danae was 2 months old, for a violent offense, which even his girlfriend at the time says he is guilty off, but he says he didnt do it. He will be there til 2012. His behaviors match hers alot and since his family is unwilling to talk about what really happened, I dont know what his diagnosis was.

From what I read, the symptoms and behaviors do match, I get the feeling that is correct for her, but I think there is more.

 

[SRL]

With a child this young, I'd seriously want someone else involved in assessment beyond a psychiatrist.

Has she even been seen by any other diagnostician?

 

[barbie]

yes Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW),ma, beh therapist, peds snd allergist, it usually isnt dxd til later but Naes symptoms are severe

 

[SRL]

If it were me before I'd settle with this serious of a diagnosis for a 3-4 year old (and have it on her medical and school records), I'd want her seen by a developmental pediatrician to thoroughly cover the medical aspects and not just the mental health aspects.

For instance, picking skin and pulling out hair can be related to Tic Disorder or Tourette's Syndrome and it's very hard to pick up in the little ones. Likewise, undiagnosed seizure activity can cause all kinds of behavioral issues.

http://www.tourettesyndrome.net/