Morning from hell and Conduct Disorder remains the verdict...

[Malika]

It is difficult indeed to talk about this without seeming to cast "blame", which is actually the very last thing that is appropriate or helpful in the situation. EPT is obviously facing a tremendously difficult and distressing situation, which you eloquently evoke, buddy. My question was very genuine: has your son, EPT, ever demonstrated affection or bonding with anyone or anything? Not fun, not being charming - wasn't talking about that, Janet - but any minimal signs of empathy or of what I believe is called cathecting, the forming of emotional attachment? Lord knows, I would not want to start trying to diagnose or claim any level of understanding for what is going on. I am just uneasy about the notion of a small child being truly "evil". As I'm sure some will understand. In any event, I have nothing but sympathy and admiration for EPT.

 

[Steely]

Thought you might find this helpful.................

"The biological basis of psychopathy has not yet been fully elucidated. Few studies deal with structural neuroimaging in psychopaths. The aim of this article is to review these studies in order to contribute to our understanding of the biological basis of psychopathy. Data in the literature report a reduction in prefrontal gray matter volume, gray matter loss in the right superior temporal gyrus, amygdala volume loss, a decrease in posterior hippocampal volume, an exaggerated structural hippocampal asymmetry, and an increase in callosal white matter volume in psychopathic individuals. These findings suggest that psychopathy is associated with brain abnormalities in a prefrontal–temporo-limbic circuit—i.e. regions that are involved, among others, in emotional and learning processes. Additionally, data indicate that psychopathic individuals cannot be seen as a homogeneous group.The associations between structural changes and psychopathic characteristics do not enable causal conclusions to be drawn, but point rather to the important role of biological brain abnormalities in psychopathy. To gain a comprehensive understanding of this, psychopathy must be viewed as a multifactorial process involving neurobiological, genetic, epidemiological and sociobiographical factors."

Here is the link for the whole articlehttp://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bsl.v26:1/issuetoc

 

[buddy]

Today was actually a really good day though on a brighter note! I kept him occupied pretty well all day, changing activities before he had the chance to fit about anything, and the only time he raged a bit was when we were putting together a lego set. Other than that, I would say it was a successful day.

Isn't it great to have a couple of moments of "relative" peace. So funny what I call a good day if often a day from hell for neighborhood parents. Good for him, and great for you!

 

[susiestar]

i am glad you have a good day. I do not think it wise for him to grow up thinking that ANYONE has to give him affection. My kids had to learn that just because they cooled off didn't mean I had, and unless something serious happened and needed care, I would NOT be pushed into hugs and kisses after they had done something to make me really angry. Affection is NOT something that they are universally entitled to, in my opinion. I am NOT saying I held grudges or withheld affection from them at any time, but I never saw a point to faking my feelings or making them fake theirs. Esp with Wiz, who would go out of his way to make us angry, esp if we were already sick or hurting or upset. We called it the Wounded Gazelle behavior because he acted like a lion stalking a wounded animal. ANYONE who wasn't feeling good in one way or antoher was a target, and after he had blown up and was "over it", he felt we HAD to be over it too. For him it was more Theory of the Mind - thinking that everyone has the same knowledge that he has even if there is no real way that they can.

A BIG part of the reason I did this, starting at around age 4 with him, was because I was really afraid that when he became sexually involved the girl would say no, they woudl talk, then he would figure she was ready for yes just because he was and he would push her too far and end up with a rape charge because he truly didn't get it or chose to not get it (with Wiz about half the time he chose not to get it - it was what my instincts said and about a year ago he admitted it to me with-o me ever bringing it up.).

I also did not want my kids to be forced to hug someone if they didn't want to. I have a great aunt who is the most awesome interesting cool person but small children hate her. Even her own kids were more likely to go to her sister or brother than to her until they were about five. Given that the 3 of them (my gma, great aunt and great uncle) all lived in the same block, next door and right across the street, the kids were always together. I just didn't want the kids forced to hug or kiss ANYONE because not letting them know they can refuse is one step along the path to being groomed to be prey for a pedophile or predator.

You may want to think about that and let him know that if he purposely makes you uncomfortable, or makes ANYONE uncomfortable tehn they have the RIGHT to not give him a kiss or hug. I am not saying to give him the cold shoulder, but you can pat his back or something other than a hug. It may be one way to let him know that his games are not okay, Know what I mean??

 

[keista]

You may want to think about that and let him know that if he purposely makes you uncomfortable, or makes ANYONE uncomfortable tehn they have the RIGHT to not give him a kiss or hug. I am not saying to give him the cold shoulder, but you can pat his back or something other than a hug. It may be one way to let him know that his games are not okay, Know what I mean??

This is a great point Susie

 

[susiestar]

Thanks Keista. I was worried that I might get slammed for it. I sure did from my parents even though they had the same rule for gfgbro and I. I am NOT saying withhold all affection, but if it seems he is trying to force you to be affectionate when you are not ready or when he is making you uncomfortable, then do NOT give in. It doesn't seem he would have problems not giving affection if he didn't want to, but he NEEDS to know that others can't be forced into it either.

FYI, I maybe get a kiss once a year from Wiz, and it is either on my hair or in the air near me. Was NOT this way until he was about 8 but for about 5 yrs I didn't even get a hug from him. I might ask for one but I never forced it because I didn't want him to think it was something that he could be forced to give.

 

[keista]

Nah, susie. I pretty much do the same thing with my kids and for the same reasons - no one should ever feel forced into affection. It does open doors for pedophiles, and later on, date rape.

I specifically remember when they were first evaluating son, for whatever they thought he had. I got a preliminary evaluation that stated that son doesn't hug. Yeah, so???????? I seriously thought these ppl were crazy! I calmly told them that I taught him he didn't have to hug anyone he didn't want to, and maybe he didn't want to hug anyone in school. Anyway different story.

Back to EPT. You said he seemed to have an "aha moment" when you asked him how he'd feel if someone tore up his pictures. The thing is, most kids learn this naturally. It's called empathy. Obviously your difficult child doesn't have it. That's why so many were suggesting Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) because that is a very common symptom. I personally don't believe he's Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), and I do believe that some ppl are just born "evil", HOWEVER if you can teach him that empathy, and he decides it's a good thing, he may CHOOSE to be good instead of "evil". in my opinion it is a long-shot, but what do you have to loose? by the way learning the mechanics of empathy can be achieved by ANYONE. Feeling empathy is a whole different ball game.

So, using Susie's idea of NOT giving him cursory affection when you are not in the mood is a step to teaching him that empathy. He can't upset and hurt you, and then expect you to show him affection. He needs to learn that there are natural consequences to his actions.

I think maybe twice my girls made me so upset and so angry that I was unable to give them affection. They were petrified and devastated thinking I'd "hate them forever". I pulled out my good old standby and in the calmest tone I could muster, "Girls, I love you always and forever, no matter what, but right now I am still angry"

 

[whatamess]

To say that someone is evil because of a brain disorder is like saying someone with seizures is possessed. This is thinking from the past (at least it should be). We know too much about neurochemistry, brain structural abnormalities, and gene deletions/duplications to attribute these behaviors to something otherworldly. Even though we can get caught up in how this affects us day-to-day and how it makes us feel, we must remember that mental illness should be looked at from a medical standpoint. I too believe that there are people who are lacking activity in the brain region that allows them to take perspectives and/or understand empathy, but I also believe it is possible to teach them what empathy looks like and why it is important to participate in empathic actions. I think the more we look at these disorders as brain-based and less "soul"-based, the better for us (so we don't blame ourselves) and the better for the people we are talking about (so we don't blame them).

 

[Malika]

Good post, whatamess!

 

[buddy]

This is just awondering, I know no one has a for sure answer, but comments have been made about life long criminals etc....I am not talking about a child who is adopted already with these problems who you know has lots of damage and issues and then you try to help and it didn't work, I am asking about birth children where you know there hasn't been a history of abuse---doesn't mean that nothing happened in the home, kid could have had birth injury, been ill, had uncontrollable pain etc. to start the process but...)

I have never read any of the books mentioned about Ted Bundy and other serial killers. I have read the posts here (and seen news magazine shows) that talk about people who commit terrible crimes and how they had a history of x,y,z. happen to them. But I have never heard whether any of these people actually had truly appropriate intervention, support for their families, in-home treatment of the child and if Residential Treatment Center (RTC) not just "Juvie" or emergency Residential Treatment Center (RTC) placement where they didn't really work with he child's whole system. Are there any stories where these kinds of really life long supports were in place and then really didn't work (if not to change them but to keep them in low risk placements)? Maybe I dont want to know.

In my son's case, I know there are other factors and he is not unattached. He is insecurely attached though and he does have (as most Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids do) a hard time taking the perspective of others. He doesn't predict or understand the seriousness of consequences for his actions. Because of all of that , he has a risk management plan and he is never not supervised. Even without the plan, I would thru common sense take steps. No one would get seriously injured because he would never have a weapon and we are constantly on guard for signs he is falling apart. I move lamps or anything out of the way if he is melting down or having seizures. I dig thru his backpack every morning. Teachers dig thru it at school too. (we have to to get papers and stuff anyway so he knows it is not private.) I dont own any knives or scissors that are not locked up. I know I do and will make mistakes and I get frustrated he gets ahold of things he shouldn't have, but there are not any lethal weapons that for sure could cause multiple killings etc. like those people did. I correct mistakes, email all teams of issues (like the cigarette butts he was collecting little by little in his pockets) and keep pretty hypervigilant. It is exhausting but it is what he needs and deserves, not his fault he has this brain injury. I'm sure few parents of a kid who shoots school kids or kills family members really ever saw it coming, but how many of them had guns in the home or where a kid knew about it and they were not locked up at a gun place or at least where they tried to predict and prevent impulsive or premeditated acts. I am not blaming all the parents of kids who do this because I HAVE heard of stories where people begged for help and didn't get it. I am askng about those who DO get the help, DO work hard like EPT is trying to do..... do we have stories about those kids growing up and still comitting these crimes?

Maybe I dont want to know...sigh.

 

[keista]

Whatamess, I'm not using the term "evil" in an otherworldly sense, and I don't think EPT is either. I think the term is more an emotional reaction to this child's predisposed behavior. For whatever reason, this child seems to be predisposed to negative action/behavior. Even when he displays positive behavior, it seems to stem from a manipulative motivation which again, is negative behavior.

Funny you should mention seizures and possession since when I first joined this board, my own child was having episodes which might be linked to seizure activity (still don't' know specifically, just know they stopped when we stopped medications). And when I described these episodes to ppl, I would say, "If I didn't know any better, I'd be calling a priest for an exorcism". I find it is a natural emotional response.

Even though we can get caught up in how this affects us day-to-day and how it makes us feel, we must remember that mental illness should be looked at from a medical standpoint.

You are so correct because if we keep that distinction, we can keep a more clinical perspective, and not get caught up in the negative emotions ourselves.

 

[susiestar]

I don't think we have a clue what the appropriate interventions are for many people. We try, but our understanding of the human brain is still fairly minimal and given that the professions of psychology and psychiatry tend to attract those who not always the most balanced, and the enormous cost of the interventions that most families just do not have or cannot find, and the way the most disturbed kids seem to end up with the least experienced and/or least effective professionals from MANY professions, well, how are we to know what is really going to work? We still can't figure out the best way to teach reading, writing, math and science, much less hwo to teach the far less concrete principals involved in helping those who have the types of problems we are talking about.

Until ALL children are more important than fancy conference rooms and executive bathrooms with super expensive fixtures, we just won't be able to accomplish those goals. Esp not when some government agencies don't even BOTHER to investigate if fraud involves under $1,000,000. It is just too easy for those who are in control of the $$ to spend it on their own raises, their lifetime amazing insurance packages and million dollar golden parachutes and consulting fees and the latest and greatest gadgets that they don't really even care if work rather than kids who don't vote and won't vote for a couple of decades and just are not a blip on the priority radar.

 

[buddy]

@ susiestar....SAD but true.