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Muchhausen's by Internet?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 421192" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Okay, responding to each in turn...</p><p></p><p>Shari, when I said that on this site we tend to work towards helping people to help themselves, I meant that when someone says, "My kid is doing X and causing me these problems," we tend to offer from our own experience, some practical tips on how to manage in that situation. If the person is genuine, that help is welcome. if the person is not genuine, such offers of help are generally less welcome unless they are also accompanied by sympathy. How a person tends to respond can give clues. And because we do tend to be solution-focussed on this site, that gives us a bit more chance of catching this if it happens here.</p><p></p><p>How you would help someone who has any form of Munchhausen's - from my understanding, you can't. Don't go there, don't even try. Because they always know more about what they are doing/have been doing, than you can ever know.</p><p></p><p>MWM, people with Munchhausen's are mainly trying to maximise opportunities for sympathy and compassion. So they will deliver what "sells". Now, on the internet they don't actually have to have an actual child with a problem, per se. They just have to invent one. Or invent their own problems. No need to actually live it, the way someone with Munchhausen's in the real world would have to. And you are right - it would be unusual for someone in the real world with Munchhausen's by proxy, to 'manufacture' a mental illness (in themselves or in a child) because it is too open to misunderstandings and lack of sympathy. But as I said, they will use what sells and if they land in a support group where mental illness is accepted and is, actually the currency - why, then they will happily oblige, I am sure. And again, this is more likely on the Internet because in the real world, such people are less likely to physically travel to a support group, not in any numbers. But the internet provides virtual support groups in the thousands or even millions, on some very specialised topics indeed. A person can simply switch from one disease to the next, as circumstances require it. Of course cancer is more emotive, but they can also be aware that if someone at one group is "onto them", they need to change their pattern and go underground for a while, try something different.</p><p></p><p>While most of the children that bring us to this site have problems tat would fall into the mental illness category, I do not feel that this permanently inoculates us form ever being used by someone with Munchhausen's. It does reduce the chance, I agree, but I don't think it eliminates it. This is a new form of communication and as such, there are aspects as yet unexplored. And on top of that, people who come to this site have other children, or other problems of their own. And sometimes the child's problems are not purely psychological, but can have a clear physical basis. As a purely hypothetical example, let's assume I am a person with Munchhausen's. I'm new to this site. I claim to have a child who has a potentially serious (or life-limiting) medical condition. Now, what 'sells' on this site? Behaviour problems. OK, so let's say that I have either that child with the serious health problem (let's say the child has juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, that's a good one) has behaviour issues as a result (to legitimise the Munchhausen's person milking this site for sympathy) or they invent a second child who has Conduct Disorder. In reality, possibly neither child exists. or perhaps there are children, but not with any significant problems. Sometimes it's easier to embellish the truth rather than totally invent it. Now, the pattern I would get into would be one of "I can't cope, my kids are driving me crazy and I am so worried about my poor little child with arthritis, she cries with pain every night then throws tantrums during the day because she can't do what other little girls do." </p><p>People on this site would respond with practical suggestions as well as a lot of emotional support. The suggestions - pfft. I don't want those. The emotional support - yes, thank you, I'll drink that in. But it's never enough. So the suggestions either won't work, or they are things I have already tried. or we try them and she gets worse. or some other crisis happens.</p><p></p><p>The thing is, with such a scenario, we should notice over time, more so on this site, because we ARE solution-focussed. Also because we do know what we are talking about (collective experience) and so eventually would spot a fake.</p><p></p><p>But the important thing is - a really big clue is, as you get close, as you get suspicious, or as you put the pressure on for the person to really go into details, a Munchhausen's person will often respond with anger and aggression. Lashing out, accusing you sometimes of actually making them worse. Sometimes they do that online via other personalities they invent (family members, friends or simply ghosts whose sole purpose is to give them more veracity) who defend them and accuse the accusers of making the poor person sicker. And if you continue to express scepticism, they eventually trow in the towel and move on, often leaving the group divided, in tatters and confused. Did we just do the wrong thing? Why did we drive that person away? Couldn't we have been kinder? The victims of this kind of deception can be profoundly hurt. </p><p></p><p>A Munchhausen's person coming to a site like ours would be limited by the focus of this site primarily being behavioural. But they can have other, physical problems in the mix. And that is the other warning sign to look for - someone whose problems are physical, life-threatening or tragic, whose problems recur or escalate just as things seem to be improving, and this keeps on happening over and over.</p><p></p><p>Dash, you are right. Mental illness has a stigma. But far less on on the Internet. And it is possible for someone to complain of depression, suicidal depression, as the result of cancer treatment, for example. At this site we are much more sympathetic of mental illness, therefore it is possible that someone could invent a child with serious psychotic breaks, for example, as the result of untreated schizophrenia. I have read a book by an Australian journalist who diarised her journey with her son's schizophrenia. A harrowing tale indeed (and genuine). Increasingly, there is more understanding and less stigma.</p><p></p><p>A possible Munchhausen's by proxy case I have known, involved a condition which at the time was considered by some doctors to be psychological. The mother was a zealot in trying to prove that this condition was not only a physical illness, but potentially life-threatening. Some people saw her as a saint, working tirelessly in public advocacy while at the same time nursing her increasingly ill child. But to other people, this woman was a dangerous emotional blackmailer, someone who would cut off anyone who did not put her on a pedestal and flood her with sympathy and support. There were clues which I observed over a long period of time, but when I tried to express my concerns even tentatively, the reaction was swift and vicious. I also observed that all the marvellous public work this woman was doing, was actually not done by her but done by her supporters ('victims') in her name. I saw her volunteer for certain tasks, only to never follow through for various reasons (excuses) such as, "I was too busy with my child who had a relapse." I was quietly following the progress of the task and had been quietly made aware that long before the child's relapse, the mother had not done any of the tasks she claimed to have done. This pattern of behaviour was constantly repeated, and escalated over time. But those of us who suspected, were totally powerless to do anything about it. All we could do was try to limit collateral damage.</p><p></p><p>I guess the point I want to make, is let's not be too complacent. I think this problem is more widespread than we realise. It is too easy to lie on the internet - I remember thinking, when we started the Healthful Living forum, that there were no checks and balances on those of us who were reporting ongoing weight loss. If I said I had lost a kilo over the past week, who could challenge me? Such a lie is a small thing, irrelevant in te scheme of things on this site. But that is how it can start - in small lies which can result in a payoff. Then we need another payoff, so we ell a slightly bigger lie (since the same lie now will only get a 'ho hum' response).</p><p></p><p>One remedy for the Munchhausen's by proxy, indeed for any lack of full honesty, is when we choose to share our lives outside the site. Which we do - the upcoming reunion is a good example. Munchhausen's relies on barriers, on secrecy in some areas, on the person being able to keep themselves apart in seclusion. They avoid records, they avoid continuity of care, they even avoid long-term membership of any group because to maintain the lie with the same people for a long period of time, is exhausting and challenging.</p><p></p><p>I just want to make it clear - the only reason I'm not coming to the reunion, is it's just a bit too far for me! </p><p></p><p>Dash, your daughter's need to invent tories for sympathy is not healthy. But as I found, sometimes it is very difficult to actually do anything. People can get into bad emotional habits and go seeking for approval in the wrong way, and they keep doing this over and over. Some people who have more of a conscience can despise themselves for the lies and also not value the sympathy as much as they crave it, because they know it's based on a lie. They are the people who have more chance of breaking the cycle and asking for help. The ones who never get it, who are happy to lie and will accept gladly any sympathy at all, are the ones who are beyond help.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 421192, member: 1991"] Okay, responding to each in turn... Shari, when I said that on this site we tend to work towards helping people to help themselves, I meant that when someone says, "My kid is doing X and causing me these problems," we tend to offer from our own experience, some practical tips on how to manage in that situation. If the person is genuine, that help is welcome. if the person is not genuine, such offers of help are generally less welcome unless they are also accompanied by sympathy. How a person tends to respond can give clues. And because we do tend to be solution-focussed on this site, that gives us a bit more chance of catching this if it happens here. How you would help someone who has any form of Munchhausen's - from my understanding, you can't. Don't go there, don't even try. Because they always know more about what they are doing/have been doing, than you can ever know. MWM, people with Munchhausen's are mainly trying to maximise opportunities for sympathy and compassion. So they will deliver what "sells". Now, on the internet they don't actually have to have an actual child with a problem, per se. They just have to invent one. Or invent their own problems. No need to actually live it, the way someone with Munchhausen's in the real world would have to. And you are right - it would be unusual for someone in the real world with Munchhausen's by proxy, to 'manufacture' a mental illness (in themselves or in a child) because it is too open to misunderstandings and lack of sympathy. But as I said, they will use what sells and if they land in a support group where mental illness is accepted and is, actually the currency - why, then they will happily oblige, I am sure. And again, this is more likely on the Internet because in the real world, such people are less likely to physically travel to a support group, not in any numbers. But the internet provides virtual support groups in the thousands or even millions, on some very specialised topics indeed. A person can simply switch from one disease to the next, as circumstances require it. Of course cancer is more emotive, but they can also be aware that if someone at one group is "onto them", they need to change their pattern and go underground for a while, try something different. While most of the children that bring us to this site have problems tat would fall into the mental illness category, I do not feel that this permanently inoculates us form ever being used by someone with Munchhausen's. It does reduce the chance, I agree, but I don't think it eliminates it. This is a new form of communication and as such, there are aspects as yet unexplored. And on top of that, people who come to this site have other children, or other problems of their own. And sometimes the child's problems are not purely psychological, but can have a clear physical basis. As a purely hypothetical example, let's assume I am a person with Munchhausen's. I'm new to this site. I claim to have a child who has a potentially serious (or life-limiting) medical condition. Now, what 'sells' on this site? Behaviour problems. OK, so let's say that I have either that child with the serious health problem (let's say the child has juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, that's a good one) has behaviour issues as a result (to legitimise the Munchhausen's person milking this site for sympathy) or they invent a second child who has Conduct Disorder. In reality, possibly neither child exists. or perhaps there are children, but not with any significant problems. Sometimes it's easier to embellish the truth rather than totally invent it. Now, the pattern I would get into would be one of "I can't cope, my kids are driving me crazy and I am so worried about my poor little child with arthritis, she cries with pain every night then throws tantrums during the day because she can't do what other little girls do." People on this site would respond with practical suggestions as well as a lot of emotional support. The suggestions - pfft. I don't want those. The emotional support - yes, thank you, I'll drink that in. But it's never enough. So the suggestions either won't work, or they are things I have already tried. or we try them and she gets worse. or some other crisis happens. The thing is, with such a scenario, we should notice over time, more so on this site, because we ARE solution-focussed. Also because we do know what we are talking about (collective experience) and so eventually would spot a fake. But the important thing is - a really big clue is, as you get close, as you get suspicious, or as you put the pressure on for the person to really go into details, a Munchhausen's person will often respond with anger and aggression. Lashing out, accusing you sometimes of actually making them worse. Sometimes they do that online via other personalities they invent (family members, friends or simply ghosts whose sole purpose is to give them more veracity) who defend them and accuse the accusers of making the poor person sicker. And if you continue to express scepticism, they eventually trow in the towel and move on, often leaving the group divided, in tatters and confused. Did we just do the wrong thing? Why did we drive that person away? Couldn't we have been kinder? The victims of this kind of deception can be profoundly hurt. A Munchhausen's person coming to a site like ours would be limited by the focus of this site primarily being behavioural. But they can have other, physical problems in the mix. And that is the other warning sign to look for - someone whose problems are physical, life-threatening or tragic, whose problems recur or escalate just as things seem to be improving, and this keeps on happening over and over. Dash, you are right. Mental illness has a stigma. But far less on on the Internet. And it is possible for someone to complain of depression, suicidal depression, as the result of cancer treatment, for example. At this site we are much more sympathetic of mental illness, therefore it is possible that someone could invent a child with serious psychotic breaks, for example, as the result of untreated schizophrenia. I have read a book by an Australian journalist who diarised her journey with her son's schizophrenia. A harrowing tale indeed (and genuine). Increasingly, there is more understanding and less stigma. A possible Munchhausen's by proxy case I have known, involved a condition which at the time was considered by some doctors to be psychological. The mother was a zealot in trying to prove that this condition was not only a physical illness, but potentially life-threatening. Some people saw her as a saint, working tirelessly in public advocacy while at the same time nursing her increasingly ill child. But to other people, this woman was a dangerous emotional blackmailer, someone who would cut off anyone who did not put her on a pedestal and flood her with sympathy and support. There were clues which I observed over a long period of time, but when I tried to express my concerns even tentatively, the reaction was swift and vicious. I also observed that all the marvellous public work this woman was doing, was actually not done by her but done by her supporters ('victims') in her name. I saw her volunteer for certain tasks, only to never follow through for various reasons (excuses) such as, "I was too busy with my child who had a relapse." I was quietly following the progress of the task and had been quietly made aware that long before the child's relapse, the mother had not done any of the tasks she claimed to have done. This pattern of behaviour was constantly repeated, and escalated over time. But those of us who suspected, were totally powerless to do anything about it. All we could do was try to limit collateral damage. I guess the point I want to make, is let's not be too complacent. I think this problem is more widespread than we realise. It is too easy to lie on the internet - I remember thinking, when we started the Healthful Living forum, that there were no checks and balances on those of us who were reporting ongoing weight loss. If I said I had lost a kilo over the past week, who could challenge me? Such a lie is a small thing, irrelevant in te scheme of things on this site. But that is how it can start - in small lies which can result in a payoff. Then we need another payoff, so we ell a slightly bigger lie (since the same lie now will only get a 'ho hum' response). One remedy for the Munchhausen's by proxy, indeed for any lack of full honesty, is when we choose to share our lives outside the site. Which we do - the upcoming reunion is a good example. Munchhausen's relies on barriers, on secrecy in some areas, on the person being able to keep themselves apart in seclusion. They avoid records, they avoid continuity of care, they even avoid long-term membership of any group because to maintain the lie with the same people for a long period of time, is exhausting and challenging. I just want to make it clear - the only reason I'm not coming to the reunion, is it's just a bit too far for me! Dash, your daughter's need to invent tories for sympathy is not healthy. But as I found, sometimes it is very difficult to actually do anything. People can get into bad emotional habits and go seeking for approval in the wrong way, and they keep doing this over and over. Some people who have more of a conscience can despise themselves for the lies and also not value the sympathy as much as they crave it, because they know it's based on a lie. They are the people who have more chance of breaking the cycle and asking for help. The ones who never get it, who are happy to lie and will accept gladly any sympathy at all, are the ones who are beyond help. Marg [/QUOTE]
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