My niece...

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by PatriotsGirl, Feb 16, 2015.

  1. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    She is a couple of years older than M, has two children (by two different ex-boyfriends) and married a man in the army. They moved from Massachusetts to North Carolina. She had her issues growing up - not as bad as M, but still would be considered a difficult child. We thought she grew up and was doing well at the base.

    She had been out of contact with her mom, though, and finally contacted her last week. Turns out her husband was kicked out of the army (didn't say why), both of her children were taken away by DFCS (she claims because she smoked pot - we call BS on that one. She is skinnier than M was when M went to jail. We had our suspicions that she was doing meth.). Her son was picked up by his biological father who he has had zero contact with since being a baby - he has full custody now. Her daughter is in the fister care system being taken care of by an old woman that takes her toys and tells her the devil is coming up from the ground to get her. AND she is now pregnant by the third man - her husband.

    It is all a mess. She was also messed with by my mother's husband. Coincidence? I don't think so.

    And my "mother". You would think at the very least would be apologetic for bringing this monster into our lives. Instead she deflects and says my daughter has more issues than "that". I want to punch the woman in the face. She needs to address her own issues - like why she is drawn to perverted men. Even my biological father. He never touched us, but they would be in their bedroom playing porno movies very loud and a lot of them were incestuous.

    And my daughter is trying to teach me about forgiveness while she is learning herself. She tells me that she herself has sinned. That she has hurt people, robbed people and done other bad things. That if she wants to be forgiven, that she has to forgive him for his sins. I am not there. I don't understand HOW anyone could forgive such a monster. And honor thy parents? HOW can I honor a mother that I have ZERO respect for? If any Christians could chime in on that one, I would really appreciate it. I am trying to learn but have so far to go...

    So if you could, please say a prayer, rattle a bone or anything for my neice...I told my sister that if she is using what I think she is using, she is going to need some is a long, bad road...
  2. svengandhi

    svengandhi Well-Known Member

    Well. I'm Jewish, so I have no Christian perspectives to give but I wanted to tell you that I agree with you 100% that I would never forgive parents like that. I cut off all contact with my own FOO for much less serious transgressions. That said, IF your daughter feels that forgiving these people will help her to heal, then I would encourage her to do so, while telling her straight out that her child is never to be in their company even supervised. Forgive, maybe, if that's what you need to move forward, but NEVER FORGET (sorry, I had friends in the JDL).

    As for your niece, if you truly believe that the foster mother is abusing the little call, drop an anonymous dime on CPS. It could, though, just be a lie by an addict. Is the child's biological father unable to take her?

    I hope that your niece decides that the life of her new child is important to her so that she will clean up her act.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm not a Christian, but I learned about Christianity and I truly think "Honor Thy Mother and Father" means "if they are halfway decent people." I can't see God, a higher power of any kind, expecting us to honor a child abuser, PG. I do not honor my mother, dead or alive. She tried to hurt me, and she did, over and over again. What's to honor? To this day, just the thought of her brings me to tears so I try very hard not to think about her because she is part of my past, not part of my now.

    I will say a prayer for your poor niece. So sad.
  4. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    The biological father of the little girl has never been in her life. I don't know what is really true - all of the information was given to me by my sister who talked to her Difficult Child. It is just so sad. And my sister says she cannot take in the grandchild. At the moment, my sister is trying to find a place for Difficult Child and her husband to live up there - they are moving back to Massachusetts since he was kicked out of the army. Her husband will give Difficult Child's husband a job. I see disaster written ALL over this and told her so. :(

    As for my parents - they were too busy going to the bar and getting drunk (either taking us with them to the bar or leaving me at home to babysit at far too young an age), cheating on each other and getting STDs, and screaming and yelling at each other to be actual parents. Then my mother took off when I was 16 leaving a note on the refrigerator door for me to wake up to in the morning. I believe it wasn't too long before Christmas...she took my younger sister and left my brother and I. We rebuilt our relationship when I got pregnant with M and moved in with her. Things went sour again once it was found out what her second husband had been doing and she stayed with him (while trying to lie to all of us that she wasn't). It has been a roller coaster and while I am sad that I just can't talk to my mother like I used to, I just have absolutely NO respect for her and even seeing her name on Facebook makes me want to vomit. I plan on unfriending her but am debating on laying it all out for her before I do so, or just walk away silent...
  5. svengandhi

    svengandhi Well-Known Member

    I am so sorry to hear about your childhood. My H's dad was a drunk and his mom popped pills but they weren't abusive to the children. As for unfriending your mom, I would wait till your daughter is stronger and maybe ask her what she'd like to do. Perhaps that would give her a hand in her continued healing - if she sees that you choose her and Connor over your abusive step dad and enabling mom, it will cement in her what a real mother is. I amend what I said earlier, I don't think I'd ever allow your grandson around those people, even supervised. I'd just walk away - from what you say, your mom knows full well what she's done but she doesn't care, so why stress yourself repeating it.
  6. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    Oh Connor will probably never see her again and the only time he did, it was directly under our supervision. I let her join us for dinner while we were up in Massachusetts and only because M had started talking to her again. But even at counseling this weekend, M admitted she is holding some resentment for her, too, for staying with him after she knew what he did.

    As for her husband - the monster - we have not seen him in YEARS and we have warned my mother that if we ever did - husband and I would both be in prison.
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm always surprised when people who have been even sexually abused by Dad still love him and want to know him. I mean, is NOTHING so awful that just because the guy contributed his sperm he can never be so revolting that he is gone from one's life? Or if Mom knew Stepdad was abusing you and ignored it, is it ok? I've read many books on child abuse. I think I'm attracted to the books because of my own abuse issues. In many memoirs, the mothers do nothing, absolutely nothing, when they know. And the grown kids usually are ok with Mom, even though she either didn't do anything or didn't believe it when the child told on her husband. I've also read memoirs where the adult child wants to hug and love the father who ruined her life by sexually abusing her.

    I am morbidly attracted to books like this.

    Maybe it makes me feel as if, although my home life was definitely awful, it could have been worse. And that my adult years have had as better resolution than some. Of course, all of us are different...but to forgive a father who did THAT?

    PG, I'm so sorry your mom has the poor judgment and sense of morals to stay with a child abuser. It blows my mind that THIS often happens too.
  8. There is no point in forgiveness. Once they have started to molest people they cannot be cured. People need to stay away from them while they are not locked up.

    All research show that they were most likely molested when they were young and didn't receive therapy before they became molesters but that doesn't entitle them to forgiveness unless they make a public apology and both promise and do live isolated from everybody the rest of their lives.
  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    PG I just want to tell you how sorry I am that you have gone through all that with your parents. And I agree you do not need to forgive anyone. How has your sister fared in all this? You should be so proud of yourself for coming through all this well adjusted.
  10. Childofmine

    Childofmine trying to do this thing one day at a time Staff Member

    Oh PG, I am so sorry to read this thread today. I'm sorry for your sister and your niece and everybody. And for you.

    Forgiveness...hmmm....I have done a lot of reading and thinking and writing about forgiveness.

    Some thoughts:

    ****Forgiveness is for the person who is doing the forgiving, not for the one receiving the forgiveness.

    ****Detachment is not a bad thing, and in fact is very necessary for many of us, for our own mental health.

    ****There are toxic relationships, and if there is a toxic relationship in our lives, I believe it is best for us to separate from it.

    ****The only person we can change is ourselves.

    ****Often, we first have to forgive ourselves (can be the very hardest one for us to forgive) before we can forgive anybody else.

    ****Living with a soft heart is a desirable state. Living with a hard heart robs us of the beauty of life.

    ***We can't fix or rescue other people. We can't change other people, places or things.

    About 8 years ago, I finally forgave my father. My father is a rage-a-holic. His first response to most situations he can't control is anger. At age 81, he is still an immature person. Over the years, he and I have had a very bad relationship. He didn't provide the emotional support I needed growing up, we either argued a lot or ignored each other and I had very negative feelings about him for many years. His anger has always terrified me.

    His outbursts still continue today. Eight years ago, he and my mother visited me for a couple of days/nights and he had one of his outbursts. For some reason, I was able to get up, walk out of the room and I stayed in the bathroom for the next two hours, until they went to bed. They left the next morning and I didn't talk to my father for nearly a year. Nobody understood it, and my sister and mother were very critical of me about my desire not to talk to him.

    I think what happened, is that I was completely spent and done. I couldn't take any more on of his anger, his immaturity and his behavior.

    I had to separate from it, and fortunately at the time I was also in Al-Anon. Little by little, after the year was gone, I felt myself thawing when it came to my father. I had been frozen with hate and anger myself for so many years.

    As I learned more in Al-Anon, I also felt myself changing toward my father, who was not the reason I was there. I was there because of my ex-husband's alcoholism. I began to thaw, I began to see him as an imperfect person who did the best he could (albeit not nearly good enough), and I began to view him with compassion.

    Looking back, I can see now how much damage my feelings---very legitimate feelings---about my father did to my own life and especially to my relationships with me. I allowed my anger, disappointment and pain from his behavior to impact my life greatly. I didn't trust men.

    Today, I have forgiven my father. He still does the same things, and today, I detach from those things and I separate myself from him and his behavior when I need to. I am able to practice detachment with love. My life is much better today and I can trust men now. I love my father and I believe I can see him clearly.

    I am not suggesting your situation is like my situation. But I do believe this: Being frozen with pain, anger, rage, shame and guilt is not good for us. We can't undo the past. What we can do is work on ourselves and work to let go of the past. So we can move on. Regardless of whether the person changes or is sorry or not.

    I hope these ideas help Warm hugs to you today.
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  11. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    To me, forgiveness isn't about letting the other person off the hook. Forgiveness is about letting go of the desire for revenge. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves.

    Honor thy father and thy mother - to me, isn't about putting them on a pedestal. It's about keeping issues as private as possible. If the courts need to be involved, and problems become public, that is fine. If you have to speak up to keep another person from being abused, that's fine too. But you don't go around bad-mouthing your parents to everyone else. "We have our differences" is a line I have to use a lot.
  12. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    My sister ended up pregnant at 14 and married the man; they had five more children for a total of 6. He would emotionally abuse her and make her accept punishments (which included urinating in her mouth among other things). She finally left him with all of the children - two of which were grown. She has since remarried another porn addict (which she did not find out until after they were married and she had a son with him). However she is determined to make it work and instead puts all of her focus into work - she is an Assistant Manager of a Wal-Mart.

    My brother was an addict for several years - never married, never had any children. He ruined the best relationship he ever had with his drinking and drugging. She went on to marry someone else and lives happily. He has been clean, though, for many years now but keeps his distance from everyone.

    Me - I was a major Difficult Child looking for love in every single place I thought I could find it. I had my bouts with drugs - though was never an addict. My husband was a major Difficult Child until he met me. We straightened each other out. We built a family and just grew up...

    I have never spoken aloud about the porno movies on blast. He is passed on now anyway. But it is something that has always disturbed me and has always stuck with me. I guess along with my daughter, I am just freely purging it all out. It is cleansing...thanks for being a safe place that I can do that...
  13. lovemyson1

    lovemyson1 Active Member

    PG, I am so saddened by this post. If there's one thing that gets me into a ball of raging fire, it's molestation of innocent children!! I hate it with a passion. However, I just wanted to give my Christian based answer since you asked. In Matthew 6:14-15 the Bible says, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
    That being said, it doesn't mean you have to ever spend time with that sinner!!
    I agree with Child of mine when she states,
    ****Forgiveness is for the person who is doing the forgiving, not for the one receiving the forgiveness
    We all sin, we all need forgiveness. I know, it is so hard to even think of forgiving such a horrible crime. I hope if you can, it will give you peace sweetheart. I'm sorry you had such messed up parents. Mine weren't so great either.. still aren't. But I keep the peace and move forward.

    ((hugs to you dear))
  14. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Childofmine my story is so simialr to yours. My dad was a raging alcoholic also. I finally got the courage to stop talking to him also for about ten years. My mother and sister didn't understand it either and I was the black sheep. It was the big elephant in the mddle of the room that no one talked about and when I finally did everyone still ignored it like it never happened. I got a lot of help from a therapist and learned that I had a second chance in parenting my children which I tried very hard to take advantage of.

    by the way I have a very good relationship with my dad today. He is 95 and I have forgiven him and he has tried to make up for many of his ways. I did have to go through the angry and bitter years though in order to get to the other side. Like you it didn't happen overnight.
  15. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    Such a truly tragic story. I am so sorry PG, that you have had to live through all that you have has to endure. I would say you have enough on your plate right now and really, you just need to let other people's crap, be THEIR CRAP! You can not undo the damage these people have brought into your life and their own lives but you can focus all of yourself to having a happily ever after for you and your immediate family.. I say if mom can not do right by you, you have no obligation to respect her period.
  16. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    Thank you all so much!

    I have a follow up question - what exactly does it mean to forgive?
  17. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Forgive: to give up all claim on account of

    For example, to write off a bad debt is to forgive that debt.

    Note that this does not imply a restoration of trust. Just that it isn't worth "carrying this debt on the books any longer". They can't pay you back anyway. Let it go.

    That's the definition I like the best.
  18. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    For me, it means utterly and completely letting go. Again that is with the understanding that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves! It doesn't mean you are forced to forget, no you forgive someone for yourself but you never, ever allow yourself to forget what someone has done to you. Maybe if they do change, you can even forgive them for them. The reality is that there are just some people in our lives whom we can never trust again, period.
  19. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    PG, I call it "letting it go." I don't believe we have to forgive. To me, forgiveness requires remorse and amends on the other person's part. I can not dismiss my mother. Until her death (and she made sure it lasted after too) she meant to harm me and never once, even at the end, expressed any caring of me or sorrow for anything she had done. If she had, I would have forgiven her, not for religious reasons, but because I forgive easily. But you have to acknowledge what you did and own it to get forgiveness in my world (like Nancy's father did).

    Letting go is pretty much the same thing, just without me thinking "Oh, I don't hold her responsible anymore." I do, but I don't ruminate about her or think about her most of the time. When I do, I still feel sad and I suspect that would be the case even if I forgave her. My belief system is pretty much you are here to learn to love and you get what you are here to learn. You will be here again because you have not learned everything yet or you would not be back. So I deal with things that way. I did nothing but be kind to my mother and try to make amends and she refused my many olive branches, in which I even took the entire blame on myself, just to make it right, and she still refused to make even one kind gesture to me. That's not an exaggeration either.

    But to hang onto the past causes madness. I refuse to let anyone have that kind of control over me and I do feel as if my mother has a new understanding of things where she's at. And we will speak again. For now, letting go is forgiveness to me.
  20. svengandhi

    svengandhi Well-Known Member

    To me, forgiveness is not an option. I am known for holding a grudge. However, I am REALLY easygoing and it takes me a long time to get to the point of unforgiveable anger. There are only 3 people I have never forgiven - my father, my husband and the piece of dirt that ruined my marriage. My father's dead and I can't wait to hear that the other thing has passed on, so I can put on a red dress and dance on its grave. As for H, I haven't really forgiven him, I no longer trust or respect him, but he is a decent dad (other than issues like those I noted in my post to Bunny) and I'd lose too much if I divorced him. I made my peace with H and we co-exist, we are good friends but I haven't really forgiven him. It works for me. Sometimes, I wish I could be more forgiving, but it's not my nature.