natural consequences vs.?

[hamlet]

Update:
I spoke to difficult child's teacher about the situation. She explained that the misbehavior has been going on for several weeks and involved 6 or 7 students. Nearly all of them received a level one report on Friday, and one got a level II which is even worse.

The students had been separated and not allowed to sit together at lunch time because of their goofing off. Somehow they "forgot" what they had been told to do and started sitting together again. The final straw was on Friday and the cafeteria maid followed through with issuing the level one reports. The teacher said that they should have known and taken responsibility not to sit together.

The teacher was not happy that I called. She was quite defensive even though I was just requesting information and did not suggest that difficult child should get off the hook.

He asked me in the car on the way to school if this meant he would not get an mp3 player and I said yes. I told him we would have to think of something else and work it out another way. I let the matter drop and so did he, so whew! he did not blow up although it was close.

Sigh.

 

[TerryJ2]

The fact that he figured it out himself is promising.

What a snooty teacher. I'm so sorry.
Did you set up the appointment with-the principal?

 

[keista]

the teacher said that they should have known and taken responsibility not to sit together.

not

 

[Marguerite]

hamlet, I have deep concerns about this. First, they are asking too much of the kids to expect them to not sit together, after the punishments have been handed out. The kids would have thought that was an end to it and not expected the punishment ("do not sit with your friends") to continue. To hand out more punishments would seem to the kids to be unfair. I do get that groups of boys at that age can be very annoying, but this method of dealing with it clearly is not working as a deterrent, is it?

Now as to the "he'd been reaLly annoying for several days" stuff - why did she not let you know? Why not let you know for herself, at least after the fact? Why are you only finding this out now, that YOU ask? Again, not helpful for his long-term improvement.

And now I stick my neck out. I do not believe the teacher, because I have seen this before - CYA.

I tell you a story here. I used to volunteer at the local school helping kids with remedial reading. At the time I was taking a combination of paracetamol and codeine, separately to reduce the damage of the paracetamol as my liver was in trouble. I was obviously disabled, the school knew this (bleedin' obvious). I used a "bumbag" to carry my wallet, pills etc on me at all times.
One day at the school, my little bottle of codeine fell from my bag (zip wouldn't close). It fell under the outdoor steps of the classroom. Now, in that class was my best friend's son, a decent kid and a good student. He found the bottle and saw my name on it. He SHOULD have turned it in, but didn't think of that because he knew it was mine and planned to bring it round to my house after school. He was 10 years old at the time. He put the little bottle in his pocket and said nothing more about it. But someone else saw it and reported it to the teacher. My young friend tried to explain his actions (which while wrong, were reasonable). The teacher instead accused him of stealing the pills form me for the purpose of selling them or experimenting with them (gee, is it any wonder these kids get ideas?) and he was severely disciplined. I was telephoned and told my pills had been found (I hadn't even realised they were missing) and told to come and get them. I was in trouble too, it seemed, because I had brought my pills onto school premises. But I have to have my medications on me at all times, I'm certainly not going to leave them in a hot car! I mean - I carry a Swiss army knife too, having one of those on school premises is also bad, but I have used the scissors in my knife to open packages of stuff while I was at the school. It can get ridiculous.
Anyway - my friend (the boy's mother) & I talked about it. She was upset that they accused her son the way they did, without first listening to him, She agreed he should have told someone, but as our families are really close, she understood why he did what he did. She talked to him about what to do right next time. But she was still burning up about the poor handling of the issue by the class teacher, to immediately accuse before finding out. All this happened in front of the other kids, by the way.
So after school finished that day, my friend & I went to the school to meet with the teacher (who knew we were coming - she'd had about two hours' notice). I was there mostly as witness, not really in a position to say anything.
The teacher began with, "I'm sorry to have to tell you that I am really disappointed with your son. Perhaps I was a bit harsh with him, but it was only because I have been so frustrated with his behaviour this year. He's not been a team player, he's been secretive, sneaky and untrustworthy. So when I was told about these pills, I snapped and figured it was better to react more harshly, than risk those pills possibly disappearing."
My friend was totally taken in by this and her anger at the teacher changed to anger at her son. She thanked the teacher for her candour and we left, heading back to her place. There my friend tore strips off her son who had a "whaddidIdo?" reaction and then he stormed off, angry at being punished when he'd tried to do a good deed.
It took my friend a few days to calm down, then she looked up her son's school report, issued a few weeks earlier. She had read it when it arrived but had not remembered it when the teacher had been pouring her poison in her ear.
In the school report the same teacher (the one who said he'd been an increasing behaviour problem, socially withdrawn and not a team player for the last few months) had said what a delightful kid he was, how he was always there to help his classmates and work with them on a number of projects, how he was attentive and well-behaved in class. This was the boy I knew.
So basically - when this teacher found herself in the firing line for her own impulsive behaviour, she had decided to attack the child rather than admit she had made a mistake.
I had had my own experiences of this teacher, and it all made sense to me. I had been concerned at how fast she had been able to persuade my friend that her son was the problem.
The issue was a non-issue, if only some commonsense had prevailed. The boy should have handled things differently, but some understanding could have led to a productive lesson for him instead of too-harsh and inappropriate discipline.
by the way, I was told my help with the remedial class was no longer needed, they had enough volunteers now, thank you.

So especially if a teacher seems unaccountably prickly, or tense - consider that they are doing something a teacher should not do (but sadly, it happens) and throwing the kid under the bus to save their own skins. or protect a principal. Or some other staff member.

I find it odd that catering staff are able to hand out discipline notes. But then - maybe cultural differences again.

Marg

 

[hamlet]

Marguerite, I think that's a very interesting story. I knew before I called the teacher that she would defend the report; I expected that. I asked why I had not been informed of difficult child's behavior since it had been going on for weeks. She told me that the lunch aids have no way of contacting the parents, which of course is false. The teacher then blamed the problem on lack of funding for sufficient lunch maids to watch over the children. (not difficult child's fault!) difficult child has accepted the fact that he won't get an mp3 player. I received an unexpected bill and I cannot afford it now anyway.

I agree that it's strange that the lunch maids can write children up for disciplinary measures. The code of conduct is unclear and contradictory about that as it is with other things. I will bring those matters up with the principal at the beginning of next year. I think if I question him now, it may seem antagonistic.

 

[susiestar]

I mis-read the original post, missing the part where he got a level one during the ten day period. Because the deal was no notes home/level ones, and he got a level one, he should not get an mp3 player.

While I agree that the deal may have demanded more than he is capable of, I still do NOT think it wise to give him the mp3 player. If you do, he will assume that EVERY contract/deal you make means he can break the terms and still get the item. THAT will become what he understands is the rule. Even if he can verbalize knowing that the contract was a mistake because it was too difficult for him at this age, he will still latch onto the idea that if he violates the terms of a deal he can still get the reward.

I don't know his diagnosis's, but this is pretty common with many of them. Marg has given us a great example of this. One day while walking home from the beach with one of her sons (difficult child 3 I think) she stopped and got ice cream with him. He enjoyed it so much that for a very long time he expected ice cream every time they came home from the beach. He also got very upset when he did not get that ice cream every time. It took a lot of work to help him learn that it was an occasional thing and that it was NOT something that happened every time.

The other real problem I see with letting him have the mp3 player, even if you explain that the contract was too much, is the effect it will have on easy child. easy child will feel that his efforts are not worth a dang because difficult child got the reward and he didn't have to stay out of trouble. this will create HUGE sibling rivalry issues, likely worse and more long term than difficult child's outrage that easy child gets the reward and he doesn't.

IF you decide you need to give him a reward for only getting one level one report, find something other than the original reward, preferably something much smaller/less expensive. It just sends the wrong message to both kids if you give them both the reward when only one held up his end of the deal.

This does NOT mean you cannot make another contract with difficult child, one that is more "doable" than this one (if he hasn't been able to go more than a few days with-o a level one this year) so he can earn an mp3 player also. Just be sure not to make it a big deal that he has another chance and make sure that easy child gets plenty of praise (not over the top but what difficult child would get for the same thing) when he gets his reward. difficult child doesn't have to be there, but should not be purposely excluded to keep him from getting angry and/or upset. It is a lesson he has to learn, just because he didn't earn something doesn't mean easy child or another person won't get the reward if they finish the terms of their agreement.

Just in my opinion.

 

[Marguerite]

The important thing to emphasise when you talk to the principal - consistency, accountability and clear instructions to all staff on exactly what to do and when. Leaving too much at staff discretion leads to too much reactionary behaviour from staff, often sending inconsistent signals to children who are already ill-equipped to understand. The aim is good learning outcomes - how can that best be achieved? Go in with some constructive suggestions, it then is less likely to be seen as adversarial. if you say, "These things happened and it made me realise, there needs to be some lessons learned here for the future," you may get a better hearing. Too often, school staff lash out then withdraw, wanting to move on and leave that issue behind them. So the same issues keep cropping up, and the school staff get into negative, unproductive discipline habits.

An example on discipline - when he was 9, difficult child 3 had a teacher whose son was in the same grade as him. difficult child 3 saw the teacher and her son arrive at school. teacher's son was crying. difficult child 3 walked up to the boy to comfort him. The boy stiff-armed difficult child 3 away - I suspect he didn't want the nerdy weird kid noticing his tears. Boy's friends (who included the bullies) came up and physically shoved difficult child 3 away. difficult child 3, whose aim was still to offer comfort, perceived he was being shoved, and hit back. The teacher put difficult child 3 on detention for hitting. All I heard about it was that difficult child 3 had hit another boy and was therefore on detention. it took a lot of careful non-leading questions "and then what happened?" as well as talking to a friend of difficult child 3's who had witnessed it, to unravel the mess. By the time I did, it was too late for me to do anything, sentence had been served and no correspondence could be entered into. But it showed me that difficult child 3 was getting punished, when the other boys should also have been on report. And frankly, she shouldn't have been giving out punishments for an incident where her own son and his friends were involved.

Marg