Nearly Koo-Koo.....

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by danielle3329, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. danielle3329

    danielle3329 New Member

    I have a 13 year old daughter. In the past 9 months she has attempted suicide 3 times, with this past time... landing herself in ICU ....with liver damage.She has been hospitalized 4 times in 9 months - Pysch. Units.
    Been in php (partial hospitalization program) for almost 7.5 months.
    Diagnosis are:
    adhd with-hyperactivity
    Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)
    depressive disorder w.psychosis
    (((They are about to add oppositional defiant disorder)))
    Honestly I feel... oppositional defiant disorder should have been added instead of bi-polar!
    The psychosis I feel is her conscious...
    Up until the 5th grade she was an honor roll student attended a private catholic school and a star volleyball player on school team.
    I got married to a jerk and am now divorced. There was no sexual abuse. He was a grandiose narcissistic and used manipulation on the children and I emotionally.
    Going through it!
    In the meantime... at best remaining composure...
    She met new girl at school this year.. went out on a stealing spree the first weekend after school begun. Now has charges in the juvenile court. Was defiant towards her diversion officer. Now has a probation officer and had to plead out in court... now on permanent record.
    After all this with the courts. Decided she was going to steal 500.00 out of my purse. They put her on house arrest and this is when she last attempted almost with this nearly fatal suicide.
    She has been out of the hospital for a week today.
    My other three children. (All girls) Ages... 9,4 and 2.
    They have been watching much closer than what I ever thought.
    They act just like the oldest. Extremely disrespectful. Do not want to listen. Will not accept NO for an answer. Will throw fits until they get what they want.
    We are having a cluster meeting this coming week. I am thinking they will be wanting to admit her into a residential program. Which will give me time to straighten and work on getting the younger three back to 'normal' as I can.
    oh yeah... we have been through a world full of medicines too!!
    The latest being...
    Zoloft - 100mg - twice a day
    Vyvanse - 50mg - once a day
    Fanapt - 2 mg - twice a day
    Zyprexa - 5mg - as needed for agitation
    However in the past year have been on or tried...
    Adderall XR 25mg
    Serequel....all the way up to 400mg
    I am sure there were more.. just thinking off the top of my mind now!
    Not mention I have been living in a 24/7 suicidal alert for nearly a year!
    Anyone having these issues?
  2. Oh wow Danielle - I am so sorry for what you are going through here. You are in the right place to get a lot of support from the wonderful people here.

    I know that people are going to ask more questions about your daughter's history. Maybe you could fill that in while you're waiting for them to come along?
    Is she your biological daughter?
    Were there any complications at birth?
    Any major illnesses?
    Did she receive any counselling during or after your marriage to deal with the issues surrounding your ex?
    Just asking questions that others might find helpful in order to support you better. There are many knowledgeable people here.

    I don't have much to offer except to say that I think at this point she will probably be better off in a residential treatment program where she can be monitored more closely than is possible in a home environment. And, like you said, it will give you time to help your 3 other daughters get back on track.

    My son has been in hospital for threats of suicide and it was awful. I can not imagine what it is like for you and your family to have experienced these very real, very serious suicide attempts.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi there and welcome to the board. A lot of us oldtimers here don't really think ODD is a useful diagnosis. It really does sound, however, like a lot is going on in the house (all the kids acting up) and with your daughter in particular. Are you sure she isn't using recreational drugs? Yes, I know. Thirteen is so young. I would never have asked except that my daughter started drugs at twelve and it changed her immensely all the way up until she quit. Your daughter actually sounds a lot like mine after she started using drugs, and she had been a good kid too before that. If your daughter is using drugs, the psychosis could have been induced by the drugs. Sadly, kids start using drugs earlier and earlier.

    It would help us a little if you gave us some background information on the about her biological father? Did he abuse her? Does he have a psychiatric diagnosis or does he need one, even if he doesn't have one (wink) :) I am going to guess that although your other kids may be copying her a little, maybe something traumatic happened to all of them? Did they have many caregivers during their lives who came and went (like being disappointed over and over again by men?) I had two younger children who did not pick up their older sister's behavior, so it is not a given.

    Have you or any of the family been in counseling? Can you maybe try family counseling?

    Back to your daughter, what was she like when she was an infant and toddler and young child? Did she meet all her milestones? Get along with her same age peers? Make and keep friends easily? My daughter started using drugs because we had just moved to a new state and she had no friends (and nobody was friendly except the "bad" kids). She was also very shy. She wanted to be included any way she could...ugh! She had a slew of diagnoses when she was using drugs. Now that she isn't, clearly her behavior was not bipolar or any of the other stuff they said she had. It was the drug use.

    I would check her room when she isn't home to make sure you don't find anything there.

    I look forward to hearing more about your family. The more you can tell us, the better advice we can try to give you. Keep posting.
  4. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Hi and welcome. I truly hope you can get the residential placement to give some time to aort things out with the others and for her safety too. I wondered the same as.mwm since there was such a dramatic change. Even if they drug screened her she might still be using at times. Some of the medications she's been on can trigger things too so if they could do a medication wash to check it might be worth it....depends what you feel is best of course.

    So glad you found us. Many of us have kids who have had to go to the psychiatric hospital. And many here have more than one child, is single, have kids with legal troubles etc..... I think you're in great company here. I hope you find as I do that having friends who really get it is a huge relief and support.

    Many hugs, Dee
  5. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Welcome. Glad you found us but sorry you had to. I don't have "the answer" but I am a great listener. My oldest difficult child was a lovely well behaving ADHD girl and she, too, hooked up with a trouble maker girl who was hyper sexual in 7th grade and we ended up in the Judicial system. In our case, difficult child did not do anything wrong except believe the lies that her "best friend" told her. Sigh. I hope you get comfort from our family. We do almost understand everything. DDD
  6. Bunny

    Bunny Guest

    Welcome to our little corner of the internet, although like the others have said, I'm sorry that you needed to find us. You will find incredible support here and you will know that you are not alone.

    I sounds like residential treatment would be good for all involved. Your daughter will be able to get the constant care and looking after that she seems to need at this point, and you will be able to concentrate on the other girls and get them back in easy child status.

    Where is her father? Is he involved in her life at all? I wold test her for drug use. She is young, but that does not seem to matter much anymore. They seem to start younger and younger. Where does she go to school now?
  7. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Welcome, Danielle.
    I am so sorry about your family, and your daughter in particular.
    I am waiting for your response about her behavior as a baby and young child.
    If she was basically "normal" up until now, I would vote for drug use.
    However, sometimes behaviors are hidden and we make excuses for little kids and then one day they're older and we realize it's not so cute any more.

    You are in the right place. {{hugs}}
  8. danielle3329

    danielle3329 New Member

    To all of you - I must say Thank you for taking the time to post me! I took a peek over the weekend and was surprised - however did not have time to write back!
    Here are some answers to some questions...

    welcometowitsend: (Love your name by the way!)

    Yes she is my bio-logical daughter
    I was on brethine towards the end of my pregnancy to stop from delivering early - otherwise ALL was well!
    Only illness has been asthma - and she has luckily outgrown it!
    Yes - She has been persistent in the counseling arena... for nearly 3 or 4 years. At times she has been known to bottle up emotions and is only willing to work with certain therapists.

    midwest mom:

    Biological father has been out of the picture since... she was almost 6 years of age.
    I have been told he may be bi-polar.
    Surprisingly I have never been used to giving people access to my children. The only caregivers they have had are my mother. Very fortunate and grateful.
    About the drugs - I would say absolutely not. Not trying to sound funny however - this girl has never ridden in a school bus let alone been alone with any friends of her anywhere - without a me or my mother.
    When we try to do family counseling (between her and I) she gets entirely too mad at me.. and then the therapist tells us to end session... so we havent had one since.
    She talks about how I didnt protect her when I was married - from my ex husband. In which I feel I did. I left my job at a local college two days after I started - because she had rode her bike up for the second day in a row to tell me that she didnt feel safe. I put him in jail for domestic violence as soon as he committed act and had protection order. Then we moved as soon as I could afford to get another place. (Some reason she holds resentment about this...)

    Since she has been on suicide watch now for almost a year.... which includes having all knifes, pills, poisons, toxins, needles, any instrument that can be used for harming self... etc... ALL medications etc.... everything is locked up in the house! Everything!! It is no longer any fun to live in the house. Anytime anyone needs to have fruit cut or medicine time...etc... its always additional work! ALWAYS.
    She did meet all of her milestones. She always has gotten along with her peers. She has always been that one person who would make sure to 'include' everyone and if someone didnt have a friend... she would be there friend. She has had to switch schools a few times due to one closing and moving once or twice.. otherwise though... nothing unusual.
    I was diagnosed with depression after my second daughter was born in 2003... otherwise the only other health problem I have is thyroid disease... (Graves). I have had her thyroid tested multiple times. Curious as why the 'old timers' do not agree with the ODD diagnosis? Honestly when I researched ODD --- it seems that it reads my daughter to a 'T' compared to any of the other diagnosis (s).

    by the way - it feels good to talk with you all while realizing I am not the only one dealing with craziness! My mind has been continually grinding into a numb state now for months.... everyday however its been a fury ... just going about the daily business - eventually I knew it would catch up to me!

    buddy: I have been super cautious about her medications and highly watchful about the side effects too! (Seroquel was a one that effected her negatively!)

    ddd: I cant even say I am looking for an answer. Just knowing that I am not alone - is comforting!

    bunny: She is still in the php (partial hospitalization program) - ...from the website it says..."
    The Partial Hospitalization Program (PHP) provides comprehensive therapeutic care for children and adolescents, ages 9 to 18, to help them better manage school anxiety, difficult emotions, problematic behavior and mental illness."
    See earlier comments about father etc..

    Tomorrow we have a cluster meeting... which will possibly push us in a different direction!
    Hope this helps a pinch! If you have any more questions let me know.
    Wishing you all a lovely Thanksgiving!

  9. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Hi d -

    I'm sorry about everything that your entire family is going through. I say entire's not just your daughter, and it's not just you that are suffering from the actions/consequences of what has been going on "In the life of Danielle and her suicidal daughter." I can say this (sadly) but now on the other side (thankfully) of experience. My son is now 22 and while I still watch (from far away) for signs for the idealizations of suicide due to depression and POSSIBLY bi-polar disorder......our life was h.e. double hockey sticks. There was an abusive and tortuous x husband -his biofather, and my son was around in that quagmire for four years. The damage that it did to his mind was IMMEASURABLE in terms of years, and changes to his thought patterns, and how he percieved how life should go and the decisions he made, the choices he thought were correct and how he BEHAVED and presented himself to the rest of the world -----all the while MAD AS (insert any expletive you choose).

    What was he mad about? Golly wow. WOW. Whoo......HOLY CATS. THAT my friend took over 15 years for ME in therapy, and nearly TEN years for him in therapy (and I'll tell you something sister - I DRUG him kicking and screaming -((( to which I am sure to follow will be a beavy of disagreement from several members but I digress with a statement from my own sons mouth - it's the ONLY thing that SAVED him and I'll explain that in depth later))()to see a GOOD -nae GREAT psychiatrist.....that WE ALL went to and when I say WE ALL (in my slightly adjusted Southern drawl.....I mean MY ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD. ME, My fiance, My son.....and anyone else that lived under the roof at that time (adopted children, kids spending the week, transients)----you name it-----you stayed? You went. You wanted to live in the nut house? You went to therapy. I go YOU go. Because in order to heal.......ONE person......You have to have a mentality in my humble opinion thus......It's NOT JUST them.......It's YOU TOO. And boy was it. See......When the kid is angry and yelling.....and spewing out things at you that "You stink as a parent, and you don't know how I feel, and you don't know how it is to be me!" .........Well then TELL ME!!!!!.......and then what do you get????? "NOOOOOOOOOO" and they shut down, slam doors, and you're shut out. So nothing.....NOTHING gets solved. What helps? A mediator. That mediator needs to be deal with kids and parents that can find COMMON ground......and bring you both to the center of the field so-to speak.......and make BOTH OF YOU realize that at times......(not always) but at times BOTH OF YOU.......are being UNREASONABLE,,,,,,and BOTH of you CAN......bend. IT can NOT always be a dictatorship. Yes you are the parent, and YES.....they are kids and they DO wrong, and they're going to make mistakes.....but how do you punish them so that they learn not to do it again, and forgiveness, and .......especially with a difficult child......a lesson? Because with a difficult child? They touch a stove, they get'd think that would be the lesson......but nope.....they touch that stupid stove 2,3,4 more times to the point that as a parent???? You are so exhasperated? You do what? BLOW UP???? Yell.......Ground ridicuosly? (Probably)......and you're back to square one. And in the MEAN time? Youre life, at work, at home, with your significant other GOES IN THE......spell it for me children........T.O.I.L.E.T..........because................

    You are (kebitzing) to.......who? Your spouse, your significant other, your girlfriends, your co workers.......and by the time your kids start this junk,,,,,,,and are in their teens? YOUR friends and family start to (WHAT??) stop including you because.....well quite normally ------they don't want THEIR kids around YOUR kid....because YOUR kid isn't normal and YOU must be doing "SOMETHING WRONG"......and if you're like some of the parent''ve started drinking (to calm your nerves) and or possibly over eating and have gained - 150 lbs.....and stopped doing things for you really dont care how you look, and you dont go out much anymore .....because you cant......I mean YOU can't leave the house......your kids are nuts......and NO ONE wants to baby sit for YOUR're black listed from the "NORMAL" kid sitters.......and your friends don't come over because THEIR perfect kids are in choral, musicals, plays, band,, soccer, tennis.....and you may have just one friend who lingers on but finally she'll drop off too.,And you're utterly alone......and y ou haven't had time to seek a therapist for you keep picking LOOSER boyfriends......and their bad habits rub off on your kids......and IT AFFECTS THEM DEEPLY........until finally your life is on such a downward s piral.............something drastic and dramatic happens and you just sit and think.........the unthinkable.

    SO.........when it gets to this like many many people who understand YOU and your kids, and DO NOT think......OMG that family is a family of FREAKS.......because YOU ARE NOT. YOU are however a family in CRISIS......and a family that is SO ENMESHED (love those big clinical words) it means so dependent on each other you don't know how to live separate healthy lives......that you need help to sort out where your life starts....and stops. ALL OF YOU. And people get SOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOO FENDED when I say......SEEK THEEEEEEEE A GREAT THERAPIST. I don't know why. There is such a stigma about it. Honestly I'll tell total strangers.......I went to 15 years of therapy......I am on Welbutrin 2x a day for depression.....(hey live my life without it......roflmao)......and they look at me so odd.......and I say.......okay......let me ask you this.......Can you drop a transmission in your own car? If it quit today.......could you or would you attempt to fix it? They say no. I say "PFT>......I could." They are somewhat taken back." I ask them then......."Could you get up in a 18 wheeler and find the parts in it that didn't work and identify the problems in it if it didn't work? they say no laughing......and I say I could. Then they get quiet. I ask.....If those things were yours and they didn't work.....who would you take them to? They answer "A mechanic" I say ....."Yes. But why?" They answer......Because he has training and knowledge to know why it stopped working and what to do to fix it." WHich is an excellent answer. Then I ask......Okay......So WHen your family quits working, or your BRAIN stops getting along with the people in your house.......WHY do people think THEY possess the knowledge to fix it? When we have knowledge to fix things.....or are trained to fix things.....we should try. But when we don't.....we go TO AN EXPERT, or a teacher. All a shrink is ------is a person who TEACHES a family how to come meet in the middle on common ground and learn how to air their differences and work on resolutions, and sort out bad things in the past that stunt our mental growth so we can start over from that point..........when we were too young or too stressed out or TOO INTIMIDATED to know the difference........and DO IT RIGHT with a knowledgeable helper beside us......WHAT is so wrong with that?

    When I knew better I did better.....When I didn't? I started over with help.

    As far as your daughters.......and you........YOu ALL need help. And as far as men, and the past? ALL that needs to be addressed with all of them. They are all going to have something to say.....maybe not to you......maybe not now......maybe never. Maybe they're angry about their bio father.....maybe they have guilt and think secretly they're the reason he left. Maybe they see other dads at school and have enormous jealousy and rage. I have no idea what goes through a childs mind. But I do know if they don't talk about it, and don't get it out of their system, it DOES turn inward, and cause anger, and rage, and depression, and lots of problems on top of emotional and chemical imbalances. And if she feels singled being the ONLY one with problems ie" Im the only one seeing a hurts. And there are plenty of programs through the county, churches, United way that are either free or affordable, or possibly through work/insurance.

    If I ran down the gauntlet of things we tried? It would stagger the imagination.....I can tell you that my "dude" was home with us a HANDFULL of holidays from 10-16, and kicked out of foster care and we WERE in therapy.....he was on 65 medications and kicked out or excused from practically ever group home in 2 states. NO ONE wanted him. His first suicide attempt was at 10, by hanging, his second attempt was at 16 by overdose, his third was at 16 by hanging in Department of Juvenile Justice, and his fourth at 20 by alcohol. With my x? He tried 22 times to take his own life. Mostly by overdose, a few times by slitting his wrists or throat, once by jumping off a bridge, he almost made it with aspxiation and at 57 I think he's probably done because he found out he has cancer and now wants to live.

    I hope you know have a aren't alone and there is always hope. But your daughter has to do this on her own. The more you do for her? The less she will do for herself, and the more you do for YOURSELF? The better it will be for all your family. The addage......If Momma ain't happy? Ain't nobody happy is more true than you've ever realized if you think about it because YOU.......ONLY YOU are the example those girls are looking at....for relationships, how to react to every situation, work ethics, habits......and they'll either mimic you or be the total opposite. Something to think about. When I thought about that? I wanted to be the best example of calm, peace and understanding I could be for my son, and the first time I got a compliment from him? I knew it was all worth it.

    Hugs & Love
    ps. If you don't like ANYTHING I can ignore it all......wait until you are completely Koo Koo and rent yourself out as the little bird in a clock. :sochildish:
  10. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I believe in ODD. It describes my difficult child perfectly. I called her 'parenting resistant'. It does usually come along with something else; BiPolar (BP), ADHD, Depression, etc.
  11. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    And I'm the opposite. I do not believe in ODD - other than as a "placeholder" diagnosis for when nobody has figured out yet what is really going on.

    The reason? The more we find answers to difficult child's issues, challenges, and problems (including problem people in his life esp at school)... the less ODD we have to deal with. ODD is a symptom, not a cause. It is real, as in... the behaviour it identifies really does exist. But the behaviour is not caused by ODD. Rather, the behavior "IS" ODD... the cause is something else.

    And yes, for some kids, it is extremely difficult to find ALL of the causes. Complex kids rarely have one magical diagnosis!
  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I also believe in ODD and CD. Its in the DSM for a reason.
  13. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Sometimes the reason is to have an insurance code.

    Many of our kids meet the criteria for ODD, but a key part of the criteria is "Must occur on its own, rather than as part of the course of another mental health problem, such as depression or bipolar disorder" For most of our kids, the ODD label is temporary until the underlying cause is discovered.

    Conduct disorder is different in that it can be diagnosis in addition to other mental illnesses except Anti-social Personality Disorder.

    I don't think most people would disagree with ODD being an accurate description of many difficult child's behavior. The concern is that is all it is...a description; no whys, no true treatment options. I am one that always suggest parents keep digging to find out why the child is ODD.....reaction to trauma (PTSD), chemical imbalance (bipolar), neurological imbalance (epilepsy).....without the WHY treatment outcomes are often very poor.
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I brought up bio. dad because, even if your daughter never saw him in her entire life and even though he didn't parent her, she carries 50% of his genes. If he has a mental illness, she could have inherited it, even if she doesn't interact with him. Mental illness is hereditary.
  15. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Or to cover the backsides of psychiatrists who "can't" find any other diagnosis.

    Or just to validate that the parents and teachers really DO see something wrong here... which, as a diagnosis, it DOES provide. It isn't bad parenting.

    ODD doesn't apply if other MI are present... but it can exist as a result of medical or developmental challenges too. Un-diagnosed deafness can "cause" ODD, for example - but it really isn't ODD. Know what I mean??

    The more they play around with DSM, the less I trust it.
  16. flutterby

    flutterby Fly away!

    One psychiatrist told me ODD was a "garbage bin diagnosis" that is used when they don't know what else to call it (which we especially see with our kids that don't fit nice and neat into one of the diagnosis boxes), and several psychologists and other MH professionals have told me it's a useless diagnosis. For the most part, ODD is a basket of symptoms and when the underlying disorder(s) is discovered and adequately treated ODD behaviors go away. I believe it may exist on its own for a few, but not for most. My difficult child didn't have a complete diagnosis until January - and she's been in therapy off and on since she was 5 - and only a partial diagnosis by the age of 11, yet not a single MH professional ever offered ODD even though she exhibited most of the ODD symptoms.
  17. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Oh yeah, I think others explained it well. Heck I've said for years I should have named my son O instead of Q because he is so oppositional at times. But as others have said, other than describing behavior and giving a code to have service paid for, as a solo diagnosis it's not super helpful. To me it's like saying someone has a severe cough. But if its bacterial pneumonia the treatment is different from a cold or Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD). It gives a place to start. And the fact is for some kids there might not be an easily defined other reason for such behaviors and the goal anyway is to identify what skills are missing that makes it so.difficult child.cant do better and problems are needing to be identified to help difficult child work through?

    From the further info you provided it sounds like your difficult child could have some pretty big trauma issues along with a possible genetic risk for mental illness. Those things that happened while difficult child was 0-3 yrs will have the most significant impact on personality development. Even though our specific memories may not be so clear, those are the years we learn to bond with others and develop trust. It sounds like there were some pretty scary times for both of you. There are targeted treatments for ptsd, or attachment issues, etc. and a really in-depth assessment like a neuropsychology evaluation could help give more clarity. A residential placement could include an assessment like that. Some may do that automatically and in other settings you may need to ask.
    Anyway you seem remarkably strong with the enormous parenting responsibility you have. I just can't imagine having more than my q. He would not be living at home.