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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 319270" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Good on you for trying to reach out.</p><p></p><p>You said, </p><p></p><p>I'm sorry to have to tell you - you cannot discipline this out of him. As you have already discovered, it just doesn't work.</p><p></p><p>When you think about it, we teach our children that all are born equal, then we go and sabotage that by insisting that there are class distinctions according to a person's age, their position in the group (ie teacher vs student, parent vs child) and even gender (yes, it still makes a difference especially when taking your car to a mechanic!)</p><p></p><p>The truth is - we're not all born equal. But autistic kids find this too difficulta lesson to learn easily.</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry to tell you - but in this case, the grandparentsand your husband are closer to the truth. You're still thinking of this kid in terms of "normality" and his brain simply isn't wired that way. Now, in your defence - I suspect grandparents and husband didn't actually develop any formal strategies, they just took the line of least resistance. With autistic kids this can often work out purely by luck to being close to the best way to handle them.</p><p></p><p>What these kids desperately crave - </p><p></p><p>* sameness. </p><p>* Uniformity. </p><p>* a chance to be left to their own devices to do what THEY want to do. </p><p>* To fit in somehow.</p><p></p><p>What these kids have that "normal" kids don't have, to the same extent:</p><p></p><p>* loyalty.</p><p>* rule-following (the rules as they understand them to be)</p><p>* an intense ability to focus on what they are especially interested in (computer games, in our family)</p><p></p><p>What these kids have great difficulty with:</p><p></p><p>* recognising the difference between people, especially in how to treat people</p><p>* change, especially sudden change imposed from without</p><p>* understanding subtleties, especially in non-verbal communication</p><p></p><p>Because these kids are so different (but in subtle ways) andalso because the brighter of these kids will more rapidly adapt and mask thier condition, it can be very difficult, especially if you've come later to the situation, to work out the best way to manage them. What works best for me is to always bear in mind the ultimate goal of any parent - to raise the child to be independent, happy, functioning, productive members of society.</p><p>Now, the usual methods of achieving this are the ways we were raised. But often these methods will only make a kid like this more difficult to handle. </p><p></p><p>We need to find a better way. Luckily for you, many of us have been there before you. We've also found things that work for us and also work for other people.</p><p></p><p>These kids are not easy. But it can be a lot easier.</p><p></p><p>What I suggest you do:</p><p></p><p>1) Get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It's not specifically about autistic kids, but about a wider range of kids who, for varying reasons, need a different approach. This approach may seem anarchic to someone used to a firm hand as the best method, but trust me - it works. And think about it - what other choice do you have? ANY discipline method that isn't working, is only causing more harm. You should only ever fight battles you know you can win. This is something your husband and his parents have already learned, if not consciously.</p><p></p><p>2) Recognise that no matter how it feels, this is NOT disrespect, not as you know it. DO NOT REACT. There are better ways to teach respect. More effective ways. In fact, iin general - DO NOT USE FORCE WITH THESE CHILDREN. They will win. Trust me on this. Their singlemindedness is their strength and they are very strong indeed.</p><p></p><p>3) Do to get. Most people view this as the child needing to earn their way, but with autistic kids you need to do it the other way - these kids are mimics. The brighter ones especially. They will copy the behaviour of other people aorund them. I'm betting this kid has a phonographic memory for movie scripts or similar, which he actually uses to pepper his conversations. They often learn from what they see. I remember difficult child 3 as a very young child watching movies (with subtitles on) over and over. He would play a scene, rewind it and play it agian. And again. He memorised scripts. He would quote large chunks of them. But then he began to use phrases appropriately. For him, movies had been his schoolroom in life.</p><p></p><p>What we have found - if husband gets firm with him, scolds and tries the "Because I said so!" approach, he meets fierce resistance. Generally whatever it is he wants done, doesn't get done. But if we try a different manner towards him, we are in fact setting the example for him. These kids will give back what they get, in terms of behaviour form people. A teacher's way of talking to difficult child 3 will show difficult child 3 how that teacher expects him to behave. At least, in his mind that's how it works.</p><p></p><p>And in fact, that is how it happened. We found the teachers who were constantly calm with difficult child 3 and didn't react, were the ones who he learned to be polite to. But a teacher who was rude or sarcastic to him would get that right back. It's not insolence or disrespect, it actually is imitation.</p><p></p><p>The best thing you can do for these kids is to gently, slowly, teach them how to interact with other people in ways that will be acceptable. They KNOW they get it wrong and they find it frustrating that they don't always realise this. If difficult child 3 says something in a tone of voice which someone has found distressing, we gently tell him, "That didn't sond right." We can even say now, "That didn't sound respectful."</p><p>At first he used to get defensive. "I wasn't being disrespectful!" because in his mind, he wasn't. So we simply said (calmly) "I didn't say you weRE disrespectful, only that it didn't sound it. A better way to say what you did would be, '...' " and then we'd rehearse it with him. </p><p></p><p>A teacher at school (when difficult child 3 was 5 years old) had been warned to not make any sudden loud noises close to difficult child 3. But she clearly thought she knew better and one day suddenly began ringing a handbell right behind him. difficult child 3 turned and shouted at her (because he had been startled). He yelled, "EXCUUUSE ME!!!"</p><p>The teacher (who most of the kids were scared of) replied with, "No, you're supposed to excuse me!" but by this point difficult child 3 had turned his back and walked away, leaving this teacher looking very foolish in front of a playground full of kids. This teacher relied on her "firmness" to keep control of the kids. With difficult child 3, this was the wrong approach.</p><p></p><p>Now, difficult child 3 has made it clear to me - he adores every teacher he's ever had. And in a few years, he even had this same teacher as his class teacher. Simply because teir role is to teach him, he likes them. Frankly, by this stage I was NOT liking this teacher and clashed frequently with her over her bad handlnig of difficult child 3. But he was untouched by any of this, also untouched by her attitude to him. He still would have seemed disrespectful to her, simply because her way of speaking to kids was to always use withering sarcasm. So she got the same stuff back - to difficult child 3, she was setting the standard for behaviour.</p><p></p><p>You should never use sarasm with these kids - they have enough trouble understanding communication, without it being made even more confusing. It's easier to take things at face value.</p><p></p><p>Don't assume that because a child is bright, that he can understand subtleties. In English class last year, difficult child 3 had to answer questions about a piece of text such as, "What do you think Jake thought about Bill's actions?" The trouble with this is, difficult child 3 could tell you what HE thought about Bill or about Jake, but couldn't get inside the head of another character. it connects to Theory of Mind. Now, difficult child 3 finally does understand Theory of Mind in general, but the fine detail of it is still challenging for him. We're hoping that giving him a year off the subject will mae it easier for him to cope. </p><p></p><p>The irony is - in his best subject, he gets full marks. If he has enoguh time to do the work, he gets full marks (except in humanities and English). He's a bright kid. With coaching, he can 'get it'. But left to his own devices, he can't understand.</p><p></p><p>We do have trouble at times with difficult child 3. he interrupts (although is trying to learn) and gets frustrated because he doesn't know how to merge into a conversation. he also doesn't know how to converse. He's learning but it's difficult. He gets angry and shouts when things don't work. He sometimes gets violent and swears. But he is a lot better overall. We've found we do best (and he learns more about how to behave) if we can keep him calm and prevent a tantrum.</p><p></p><p>Once difficult child 3 gets enraged, any opportunity to learn is lost. Even when he calms down, he still feels righteously indignant. But if we can prevent it getting that far, we do a lot better. And he learns more from it.</p><p></p><p>And that is the important thing - to help our kids learn.</p><p></p><p>The thing I have found most fascinating, from using "Explosive Child" - it seems to bypass a step in personal development and these kids learn to use their stubbornness to develop self-control.</p><p></p><p>The trick is - you use the techniques in the book to become the supporter and facilitator for the child instead of the obstacle. Think from the child's point of view, get into the kid's head and try to find ways that will work within his limitations. </p><p></p><p>One method that has worked for us, especially with teens, is the flatmate approach. we will take a lot more from our friends than we will from our kids. And to an autistic kid especially, this seems unfair. So try treating the child as a flatmate who needs to share equally in the running of the household. We used tis approach to work alongside the child in them lerning the basic household skills (washing, cleaning, mending, cooking, shopping). I find we do best if difficult child 3 & I are both doing the same task at the same time. I will help himdo a chore as long as he helps me. We make it a fun experience, cracking jokes or playing games as we go. Of course he will sometimes be resistant because these kids don't cope well with change (another thing that needs to be handled differently).</p><p></p><p>To other people it looks like we're giving way to him all the time. We are not. And the measure is the eventual outcomes. He is learning, he is improving. You can't say things like, "He should be doing better at his age," because such things don't count with a difficult child. They will get there eventually, but of course will take longer. You have to respect this.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, stick around, we're here to help. let us know how you're getting on. If you can get your husband to lurk here also, it should help.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 319270, member: 1991"] Good on you for trying to reach out. You said, I'm sorry to have to tell you - you cannot discipline this out of him. As you have already discovered, it just doesn't work. When you think about it, we teach our children that all are born equal, then we go and sabotage that by insisting that there are class distinctions according to a person's age, their position in the group (ie teacher vs student, parent vs child) and even gender (yes, it still makes a difference especially when taking your car to a mechanic!) The truth is - we're not all born equal. But autistic kids find this too difficulta lesson to learn easily. I'm sorry to tell you - but in this case, the grandparentsand your husband are closer to the truth. You're still thinking of this kid in terms of "normality" and his brain simply isn't wired that way. Now, in your defence - I suspect grandparents and husband didn't actually develop any formal strategies, they just took the line of least resistance. With autistic kids this can often work out purely by luck to being close to the best way to handle them. What these kids desperately crave - * sameness. * Uniformity. * a chance to be left to their own devices to do what THEY want to do. * To fit in somehow. What these kids have that "normal" kids don't have, to the same extent: * loyalty. * rule-following (the rules as they understand them to be) * an intense ability to focus on what they are especially interested in (computer games, in our family) What these kids have great difficulty with: * recognising the difference between people, especially in how to treat people * change, especially sudden change imposed from without * understanding subtleties, especially in non-verbal communication Because these kids are so different (but in subtle ways) andalso because the brighter of these kids will more rapidly adapt and mask thier condition, it can be very difficult, especially if you've come later to the situation, to work out the best way to manage them. What works best for me is to always bear in mind the ultimate goal of any parent - to raise the child to be independent, happy, functioning, productive members of society. Now, the usual methods of achieving this are the ways we were raised. But often these methods will only make a kid like this more difficult to handle. We need to find a better way. Luckily for you, many of us have been there before you. We've also found things that work for us and also work for other people. These kids are not easy. But it can be a lot easier. What I suggest you do: 1) Get a copy of "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It's not specifically about autistic kids, but about a wider range of kids who, for varying reasons, need a different approach. This approach may seem anarchic to someone used to a firm hand as the best method, but trust me - it works. And think about it - what other choice do you have? ANY discipline method that isn't working, is only causing more harm. You should only ever fight battles you know you can win. This is something your husband and his parents have already learned, if not consciously. 2) Recognise that no matter how it feels, this is NOT disrespect, not as you know it. DO NOT REACT. There are better ways to teach respect. More effective ways. In fact, iin general - DO NOT USE FORCE WITH THESE CHILDREN. They will win. Trust me on this. Their singlemindedness is their strength and they are very strong indeed. 3) Do to get. Most people view this as the child needing to earn their way, but with autistic kids you need to do it the other way - these kids are mimics. The brighter ones especially. They will copy the behaviour of other people aorund them. I'm betting this kid has a phonographic memory for movie scripts or similar, which he actually uses to pepper his conversations. They often learn from what they see. I remember difficult child 3 as a very young child watching movies (with subtitles on) over and over. He would play a scene, rewind it and play it agian. And again. He memorised scripts. He would quote large chunks of them. But then he began to use phrases appropriately. For him, movies had been his schoolroom in life. What we have found - if husband gets firm with him, scolds and tries the "Because I said so!" approach, he meets fierce resistance. Generally whatever it is he wants done, doesn't get done. But if we try a different manner towards him, we are in fact setting the example for him. These kids will give back what they get, in terms of behaviour form people. A teacher's way of talking to difficult child 3 will show difficult child 3 how that teacher expects him to behave. At least, in his mind that's how it works. And in fact, that is how it happened. We found the teachers who were constantly calm with difficult child 3 and didn't react, were the ones who he learned to be polite to. But a teacher who was rude or sarcastic to him would get that right back. It's not insolence or disrespect, it actually is imitation. The best thing you can do for these kids is to gently, slowly, teach them how to interact with other people in ways that will be acceptable. They KNOW they get it wrong and they find it frustrating that they don't always realise this. If difficult child 3 says something in a tone of voice which someone has found distressing, we gently tell him, "That didn't sond right." We can even say now, "That didn't sound respectful." At first he used to get defensive. "I wasn't being disrespectful!" because in his mind, he wasn't. So we simply said (calmly) "I didn't say you weRE disrespectful, only that it didn't sound it. A better way to say what you did would be, '...' " and then we'd rehearse it with him. A teacher at school (when difficult child 3 was 5 years old) had been warned to not make any sudden loud noises close to difficult child 3. But she clearly thought she knew better and one day suddenly began ringing a handbell right behind him. difficult child 3 turned and shouted at her (because he had been startled). He yelled, "EXCUUUSE ME!!!" The teacher (who most of the kids were scared of) replied with, "No, you're supposed to excuse me!" but by this point difficult child 3 had turned his back and walked away, leaving this teacher looking very foolish in front of a playground full of kids. This teacher relied on her "firmness" to keep control of the kids. With difficult child 3, this was the wrong approach. Now, difficult child 3 has made it clear to me - he adores every teacher he's ever had. And in a few years, he even had this same teacher as his class teacher. Simply because teir role is to teach him, he likes them. Frankly, by this stage I was NOT liking this teacher and clashed frequently with her over her bad handlnig of difficult child 3. But he was untouched by any of this, also untouched by her attitude to him. He still would have seemed disrespectful to her, simply because her way of speaking to kids was to always use withering sarcasm. So she got the same stuff back - to difficult child 3, she was setting the standard for behaviour. You should never use sarasm with these kids - they have enough trouble understanding communication, without it being made even more confusing. It's easier to take things at face value. Don't assume that because a child is bright, that he can understand subtleties. In English class last year, difficult child 3 had to answer questions about a piece of text such as, "What do you think Jake thought about Bill's actions?" The trouble with this is, difficult child 3 could tell you what HE thought about Bill or about Jake, but couldn't get inside the head of another character. it connects to Theory of Mind. Now, difficult child 3 finally does understand Theory of Mind in general, but the fine detail of it is still challenging for him. We're hoping that giving him a year off the subject will mae it easier for him to cope. The irony is - in his best subject, he gets full marks. If he has enoguh time to do the work, he gets full marks (except in humanities and English). He's a bright kid. With coaching, he can 'get it'. But left to his own devices, he can't understand. We do have trouble at times with difficult child 3. he interrupts (although is trying to learn) and gets frustrated because he doesn't know how to merge into a conversation. he also doesn't know how to converse. He's learning but it's difficult. He gets angry and shouts when things don't work. He sometimes gets violent and swears. But he is a lot better overall. We've found we do best (and he learns more about how to behave) if we can keep him calm and prevent a tantrum. Once difficult child 3 gets enraged, any opportunity to learn is lost. Even when he calms down, he still feels righteously indignant. But if we can prevent it getting that far, we do a lot better. And he learns more from it. And that is the important thing - to help our kids learn. The thing I have found most fascinating, from using "Explosive Child" - it seems to bypass a step in personal development and these kids learn to use their stubbornness to develop self-control. The trick is - you use the techniques in the book to become the supporter and facilitator for the child instead of the obstacle. Think from the child's point of view, get into the kid's head and try to find ways that will work within his limitations. One method that has worked for us, especially with teens, is the flatmate approach. we will take a lot more from our friends than we will from our kids. And to an autistic kid especially, this seems unfair. So try treating the child as a flatmate who needs to share equally in the running of the household. We used tis approach to work alongside the child in them lerning the basic household skills (washing, cleaning, mending, cooking, shopping). I find we do best if difficult child 3 & I are both doing the same task at the same time. I will help himdo a chore as long as he helps me. We make it a fun experience, cracking jokes or playing games as we go. Of course he will sometimes be resistant because these kids don't cope well with change (another thing that needs to be handled differently). To other people it looks like we're giving way to him all the time. We are not. And the measure is the eventual outcomes. He is learning, he is improving. You can't say things like, "He should be doing better at his age," because such things don't count with a difficult child. They will get there eventually, but of course will take longer. You have to respect this. Anyway, stick around, we're here to help. let us know how you're getting on. If you can get your husband to lurk here also, it should help. Marg [/QUOTE]
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