Need sanity check please!

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by jbrain, Mar 23, 2007.

  1. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi All,
    I believe difficult child 1 was up to her old manipulative ways--want to run this by you guys for an "objective view."

    Okay, started really a couple of nights ago--the set up I guess you might say. She called and we chitchatted and then she said that she might be taking some time off work to go hiking on the Appalachian Trail. She was thinking of taking a long weekend or maybe even a week and would be going with boyfriend (he is as big a difficult child as she is, 2 peas in a pod--has left her a couple of times with rent to pay, had her tramping all over New England last summer living in homeless shelters, is 26 yrs old, very much a "drifter"--very restless). I didn't say a whole lot except I was curious how they would pay their April rent if they are taking time off work and she assured me they had it all taken care of.

    Okay, she calls me last night and says that she is definitely going--is going for 4 days, Sunday-Wed. We had a nice chat--she said she really needs a break, loves to camp, etc. I got off the phone and told my husband that amazingly she didn't seem to want anything from me, had just called to talk--yeah, right!

    Today she called me at work and wondered if she could see me in person to talk about some stuff. I met her downtown on my lunch hour. She started off telling me how her ex-dealer (for heroin) had just moved in across the street from her and how that is sort of freaking her out. I suggested that maybe she should go to an NA meeting and she said she had called our county mental health dept. to maybe set up a meeting with a substance abuse counselor. She then talked about how she doesn't want to go back to that life, etc. She then got to what I believe was the real reason for the visit--said she had everything all set for the camping trip--rent paid, time off work, bills paid, etc. but needed the bus ticket to get to Poughkeepsie with Mike, the boyfriend and someone else who is also going. I was reluctant--told her how I don't really know if she is telling the truth, that she had lied so much in the past that I don't really trust her. Well, I did finally agree to buy a ticket as an early birthday present (birthday is in May) and that when her birthday comes around she has to remember this was her main present. She agreed, said this is all she wants, needs to get away to clear her head, etc.

    So, we left and I told her I would look at the Greyhound bus schedule on line when I got back to work and I could get her a ticket that way. She said she had to check and make sure they were going to Poughkeepsie--should have been a big red flag but I only vaguely felt uneasy. Okay, I get on bus and not 5 min. later she's calling to tell me Mike already got the bus tickets so she just needed money for her food. I wasn't too happy--told her she would need to show me the ticket tomorrow when she is over for difficult child 2's birthday. She agreed.

    Well, I thought for awhile and remembered that when I left her she said Mike was at work but here she was with him not 5 min. after we parted. I called her back and she claimed he was on a break. I was getting pretty mad by now.

    Okay, this is getting long, will try to shorten it--so we had several phone calls back and forth. She changed the story to say that they might not be taking a bus--someone would drive them and Mike was paying them $40.00. I told her I was sick of the lies. She said she just really wanted to go camping and needed $130.00. I said Mike could pay it and hung up on her and turned my cell phone off.

    I am happy I didn't get suckered in but upset that I didn't catch on earlier--always ready to believe her. Also, very angry--it is Friday afternoon and I want to enjoy my weekend, not deal with her bulls----. Tomorrow is younger difficult child's birthday--I will not allow her to ruin that or upstage her or any of that.

    Okay, I hope I didn't run out of time and this goes--please respond, need support!

    Thanks,
    Jane
     
  2. Suz

    Suz (the future) MRS. GERE

    Jane, it sounds like your daughter is a pathological liar just like my Rob. I think it's important to remember that "if their lips are moving, they're lying."

    We keep wanting them to change...we keep hoping...but they don't.

    Suz
     
  3. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi Suz,
    I think you are right and it is very painful. I feel very used. I wish she could realize that we would be happy to help her if she would just be honest and upfront about what she needs and if we could be sure we weren't also helping her boyfriend. We even discussed this today--I told her that we think boyfriend sees us as "rich" and tries to get money from us through her. She agreed that he did used to do that but now she has told him not to ask her to ask us for money. She is really great at saying what she thinks I want to hear--I've never known anyone who could lie so convincingly!! I am so glad she no longer lives with us--will keep my guard up.
    Thanks,
    Jane
     
  4. Suz

    Suz (the future) MRS. GERE

    Jane, Rob and I just had a discussion this week about lying.

    I think it's probably the 2,345,845,921,000 time we've had this same conversation :hammer: .

    I ask why he lies and he says, "Because you'd get mad if I told you the truth."

    To which, I reply as I always have, "I get even angrier when you lie to me- it's a double whammy."

    Well, I'm sure you've had the same conversation.

    He admits that he doesn't want a girlfriend to lie to him...or a friend...or a parent...

    ...but he seemingly doesn't get why, if that is true for him, he thinks I would want a liar for a son.

    :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:

    So I have basically given up ever believing him about anything. It makes me incredibly sad.

    Suz
     
  5. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi Suz,
    Rob and Emily would be a good pair, wouldn't they? Oh yeah, she already has a boyfriend who is just like her! She says she lies because it is "easier" and she too doesn't like it when others lie to her. I think they lie to get their needs met in the most convenient way they can--seems to be no conscience there. She even lies about trivial stuff--I really don't get that--she lies when it would be just as easy to tell the truth!

    Well, you have made me feel better--not so alone!!! I thank you--
    Jane
     
  6. Mikey

    Mikey Psycho Gorilla Dad

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Suz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jane, Rob and I just had a discussion this week about lying.

    I think it's probably the 2,345,845,921,000 time we've had this same conversation :hammer: .

    I ask why he lies and he says, "Because you'd get mad if I told you the truth."

    To which, I reply as I always have, "I get even angrier when you lie to me- it's a double whammy."

    Well, I'm sure you've had the same conversation.

    He admits that he doesn't want a girlfriend to lie to him...or a friend...or a parent...

    ...but he seemingly doesn't get why, if that is true for him, he thinks I would want a liar for a son.

    :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:

    So I have basically given up ever believing him about anything. It makes me incredibly sad.

    Suz </div></div>

    Wow Suz. You sure you weren't listening in on my conversation with my son a few weeks ago? When I was reading the symptoms for ODD, one of them (I think) was "lying as a way of life". difficult child 2 lies, even when there's no reason to lie. Same thing - "you'd be even more angry if I told you the truth". Rubbish. I'd rather he tell me the truth and then give me the middle finger if I didn't like it, rather than lie.

    Therapist says that, at least, it's a bit of a good sign that he lies. For my difficult child at least, doctor says it means that he still cares (somewhat)about what we think. I don't like it, but I guess bitter water is better than nothing when you're thirsty. I'd still rather have him defiant and truthful, though.

    "My kid lies all the time" - seems like this is a rather large club for us parents, no?

    Mikey
     
  7. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Grandpa

    Being as objective as I can, I'd say your instincts are correct. It sounds very much like the kind of elaborate story our difficult child would come up with, except in her case she hates the outdoors, so it'd be some other kind of getaway, but the purported object would be the same: she needs a break, just needs to clear her head, etc. It was always something superficially plausible but then the details just didn't quite add up. When called on the discrepencies she'd just pile on more names and circumstances in hopes of confusing everyone to the point that we'd just give in, and when that didn't work, just retreat into hostility or try to pull a real "look what you made me do" stunt. The ultimate object was always the same: staving off the immediate crisis and continuing the destructive lifestyle for a little while longer.

    I know how you feel. Bravo on not letting her drama spoil the birthday plans -- I know that's easier said than done. Stay strong. Pulling for you.
     
  8. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Grandpa

    Wow. Six replies while I was typing and editing. I must be really slow.
     
  9. KFld

    KFld New Member

    Well it sounds like you almost got sucked in completely, but then stopped yourself. Give yourself a pat on the back for that. keep the cell phone off. If you think she's calling the regular phone, let it go to voicemail. enjoy easy child's birthday and don't let her ruin it.

    Sounds like the same old song and dance to me. Trying to get money and making up all kind of stories. My son is a recovering heroin addict, so my stomach is flip flopping just reading your post. I fell for things like that many a times.

    Stay strong. You know how to not enable and you caught on quick. Good for you.

    Do you go to alanon. If not yet, get yourself to a meeting. It will do you wonders.
     
  10. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    As I was reading your post all sorts of bells were going off and red flags were waving all over the place.

    Yes, I'd say she was doing her best to manipulate you and get some money out of you. I think you did a great job at catching her in her lies and not letting her suck you into this.

    I also completely understand how a mom never gives up hoping that this one time a difficult child might actually be telling the truth. I don't think we can ever give up that hope even though we get sucker punched over and over again.

    But realistically, it's been my experience and most other parents on the PE board that what Suz said is true ~ if a difficult child's lips are moving, they are lying.

    Sad, isn't it?

    ~Kathy
     
  11. SunnyFlorida

    SunnyFlorida Active Member

    But realistically, it's been my experience and most other parents on the PE board that what Suz said is true ~ if a difficult child's lips are moving, they are lying.


    This is so true!
     
  12. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member

    Yep, I would say she is manipulating. Jane don't beat youself up. We all hope that our difficult child's will one day get it and treat us with the respect that we deserve. Hurtful lyingis in my opinion is one of the most disrespectful things a person can do to another. Like Suz, son-RM
     
  13. Loris

    Loris New Member

    I'm glad you caught on and didn't bite the hook, so to speak. I know it isn't always easy. Good for you!
     
  14. kris

    kris New Member

    <span style='font-size: 14pt'> <span style='font-family: Georgia'> <span style="color: #663366"> jarrod's excuse for lying was alway, "i didn't want to get in trouble." this was said with-an absolutely straight face as the vein in my forhead were about to burst :rolleyes: :hammer: :hammer: :rolleyes:!

    the point here isn't that she almost got over on you. it's that you DID catch her.

    good job.

    kris
    </span> </span> </span>
     
  15. ScentofCedar

    ScentofCedar New Member

    Kris is right ~ the important thing to hang onto is that the warning lights did go on, and that you reacted differently than you have in the past.

    I especially liked that you are determined not to let difficult child's behaviors, or the disappointment you must feel, affect other aspects of your life.

    You are doing great.

    None of us wants to think our own kids would treat us this way ~ but they do.

    Barbara
     
  16. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi All,
    just checked in this morning--thanks for the replies! I so appreciate the support. My husband and I went out for drinks and dinner after work and then dancing, saw a bunch of friends. It was fun and got my mind off difficult child for awhile. I am still livid but I know that will die down and I will be able to quit thinking about her all the time. I hate being consumed by thinking about her constantly!

    Today Molly is going to a day spa for half a day--that is her main birthday present--wish I was going too! She told me about a week ago that for the past several yrs Emily (difficult child 1) has managed to ruin her birthday and I sure don't want that to happen this year.

    I think in Emily's case the lies don't mean she still cares--my therapist thinks she may even have antisocial disorder. I see it as a coping mechanism she came up with long ago--it is her way of trying to get her needs met and her needs must be met at any cost. She couldn't risk me saying no to a simple, honest request for money. She had to come up with a story she thought I'd buy and then she had to scramble because it wasn't working out right--she needed money, not a bus ticket. I don't know why she thought I'd give her money, I have told her I will not give her money but I will help out with specific things she may need. Guess she still thinks I am as dumb as I used to be but I am capable of learning! Also, with her not living here anymore it is easier to see what she's doing.

    Again, thanks for the support and I am so glad to know I am not alone! I'll let you know her next attempts at manipulating me because I am sure this isn't the end--there will be a new angle today or tomorrow I would bet.

    Hugs,
    Jane
     
  17. TYLERFAN

    TYLERFAN New Member

    Yup. Lips moving = Lying!
    I am sorry she tried to manipulate you again. I find myself feeling sorry for difficult child and giving in to some things even now. Although I will say that I am much better at saying no to her because I just don't know when or if she is telling the truth ever!!

    Blessings,
    Melissa
     
  18. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi All,
    Molly asked me this morning if she would get to see Emily today and I told her I didn't know, that Emily and I were not getting along because she tried to get money from me and was lieing to me. Molly said another birthday ruined but I told her that Emily and I might be able to get along--but that I wasn't going to put up with any bulls---.

    Emily called me a little while ago to see if she could come over for Molly's birthday and I told her that Molly does want to see her and maybe we could put aside our differences for today. She agreed wholeheartedly so she will go to dinner with us and come for presents and cake. I think it will be okay--as long as she doesn't try to ask me for anything and I don't think she will today--she'll wait til tomorrow! I am hoping we can all get along for Molly's sake.

    I'll let you know how it goes!

    Jane
     
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