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New here and at my wits' end
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 202306" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Ehlena, you and your fiance sound like you really have your hands full. You have already found some useful information about him - punishment only makes him resentful. Rewards make him feel entitled. This tells me that he isn't 'getting' the connection between his actions and the consequences.</p><p></p><p>And he says he doesn't feel he is loved (the others are correct, don't take this personally). Congratulate him for being brave enough to be honest about his feelings but recognise that how HE feels is not necessarily what is really going on. Obviously you and your partner love him, but he says he isn't feeling it. That is not surprising, given his age and his problems. Part of it too, is I suspect him thinking, how could anyone love me when I am so difficult sometimes? I think at some level he worries that he is unlovable, based on how you and your fiance are responding to him.</p><p></p><p>You and your fiance are following strict parenting, the sort of things we all grew up with knowing to be the right way to handle a difficult child - be strict, be firm, be consistent.</p><p></p><p>The trouble is, for some kids this is wrong. Sounds crazy, but sometimes we have to do things almost the opposite, to get some good results. And frankly, with kids like this it's the results we want, tat speak the loudest.</p><p></p><p>"Explosive Child" spells it out well. If you want a fast preview, there is some good discussion of this book in the Stickies in the Early Childhood forum, on how to adapt it to younger children. It's difficult to describe it quickly, but it IS simple in principle - it swaps the adult as controller (and seen by the child as obstacle) for adult as supporter and facilitator. It hands control to the child - a scary thought. But it does it in ways that parents can accept, in the same way you allow a child learning to walk, to take those steps feeling as if they are allowed to choose where they want to walk. They don't see that their parents are behind them with hands outstretched at the ready.</p><p></p><p>Back to this boy - he feels he knows best. To handle this, you can either tell him otherwise (yeah, like THAT'S working!) or let him try it his way (with you at the ready just in case) to see what will happen. It is often the most effective way for them to learn, if they just will not learn any other way.</p><p></p><p>On the ADHD front (or whatever it is) - your son can read well and has comprehension there, but isn't doing well when people give him a talking-to. This does sound very familiar, and CAN be connected to ADHD. Can be other things too. We had this especially badly with difficult child 1 and we dealt with it (still do, to a lesser extent) by putting it in writing. If there are chores to be done - we make a list. If there are instructions to follow - we write them down.</p><p></p><p>An example with difficult child 1 - we would be having afternoon tea with friends at their home, where difficult child 1 had not been before. He asked to go to the bathroom and they said, "Sure. Go through that door and turn left, it's the fourth door on the right. The light switch is outside the door."</p><p>difficult child 1 would be lucky to get to the first door before having to ask, "Which direction again? How far?" If you physically took him there he would be OK. But trying to remember an abstract sequence of even simple instructions, he would forget and lose track.</p><p>We worked out what we figured was happening - his short-term memory (the one you use to remember a phone number you've just looked up, for example) didn't seem to be working. It is short-term memory which manipulates information in your head, that helps you remember steps in a procedure, that helps you with a lot of simple tasks. difficult child 1 would use his remarkably good long-term memory as a substitute. So if he looked up a phone number, he would often remember it for months. If he watched a documentary on TV on a favourite topic, he would remember the narration almost perfectly. We could ask, "What was that nature program on eagles saying about the distribution of Golden Eagles?" months later and he would be able to tell us.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 1 was diagnosed as ADHD when he was 6, but some years later at about 14 or 15, was diagnosed as Asperger's plus ADHD. Stims HAVE helped him, also helped difficult child 3 immensely. But there's no guarantee.</p><p></p><p>What helped us - adapting to what he needed, trying to find ways to make it easier for him by using aides such as written lists, mind-mapping (for essay plans) and recognising that despite his high intelligence, he wasn't able to demonstrate this because of subtle learning problems which are too easily masked by a bright kid. They don't deliberately hide their abilities; it is simply a way of adapting to their condition and trying to fit in like everyone else. Example - I am very short-sighted, always have been. But at school I managed to slide by because I found if I squinted my eyes tightly, I could see a little further (there is a scientific explanation for why this works). When I was getting my eyes tested by the school nurse, I passed the eye test by squinting. The school nurse didn't notice; after all, I had just read the required line. She hadn't been looking at me, she had been looking at the chart to check that I was reading it correctly. I wasn't trying to be sneaky; the nurse wanted me to do as well as I could, surely?</p><p>But I DID go home and tell my mother, "I know the school nurse said I could read the eye chart, but I had to squint to do it and surely that's not right?" I was independently aware that I was having trouble with my eyes and I asked for help.</p><p></p><p>If my suspicions are right about your son, he is going to seem very disrespectful, tactless, rude and arrogant. But this is perhaps not what he is really like, if my hunch is right. difficult child 3 comes across like this. His behaviour was made worse when people reacted negatively to this in him. You would think a kid would learn, if you seem disrespectful and people react with hostility, then you learn to not be so disrespectful? With some kids, it just doesn't work that way, it backfires. Because a person reacting with hostility is often seeming to be equally disrespectful! The age or status of the person doesn't matter, to the child - they don't necessarily discriminate. Everybody is equal. So sarcasm, scolding, even expressing disappointment - doesn't sink in. Or it confuses them. What they need first, even before they have "earned" it, as you might thing - is to be treated with the same respect you would like to receive from them. You CAN say to them, "Why did you say that to me? You sounded very disrespectful when you said that, I didn't disrespect you. What you should have said was, ...".</p><p>This statement makes no judgement about the child's intentions. You have merely expressed how YOU felt in response to the child's actions/words and then modelled how it SHOULD have been done/said. You do it calmly, gently, politely. Quietly. Then move on. Ignore apparent rudeness, do not react or let it escalate a situation. Instead, try to get to the real crux of an inter-reaction.</p><p></p><p>Sometimes apparent rudeness can come out of anxiety. difficult child 3 can get VERY anxious about all sorts of surprising things. For example, driving to his drama class. "Mum, why are you going this way? It's stupid; we're already late, we're going to be even later now, because you didn't listen. You've done it wrong!"</p><p>Now please note - he didn't say I was stupid, only what I did. And he was wrong - I drove a longer way but a quicker one. </p><p>Instead of scolding him (which will heighten his anxiety only it will come out as anger, indignation, resentment and then hostility) I reassure. "It's OK, I know what I'm doing. If I drive the other way I have to slow down to 50 k/h. This way I'm able to drive at 90 k/h for most of the way. The other way, I have four roundabouts, all busy. This way I have two, both quiet. Don't worry, we'll be on time."</p><p>He quiets down a bit (instead of the alternative - getting louder and ruder - not good to arrive at class tense and angry).</p><p>Once at class (in time) I say, "We're here. We're not late. Do you feel less anxious now?"</p><p>I don't ask for an apology - I mightn't get it, because he will still be a little bit anxious until he gets in and his class starts. On the way home we can talk about it. Or next week when he again says, "Mum! You're going the wrong way again!" That is when I can say, "Remember last week? I said then, I do know what I'm doing. It's OK."</p><p></p><p>It doesn't sound like anxiety. It sounds like rudeness and anger. But treating it as anxiety has change how difficult child 3 responds to us, which lessens his anxiety, which improves our interactions, which improves his trust of us, which improves how he speaks to us, which... you get the picture.</p><p></p><p>I do have to stop other people from over-reacting to his apparent rudeness. mother in law used to correct him far too much (in my opinion) but finally understood what we'd been trying to tell her about how to handle him. Lately, however, she's begun to correct him for how he speaks to me. To his credit, he no longer reacts to her when she does this. He has also begun to apologise for perceived rudeness, usually after the wave of anxiety has past.</p><p></p><p>Think about how WE react when we see our child do something suddenly dangerous, such as run out onto the road after a ball. We shout at our child, we scold, we say, "How could you do such a foolhardy thing?" To a child like my difficult child 3, and I suspect like yours, this doesn't sound like our fear for them, it sounds like us being angry with them for no good cause. They will therefore react in the same manner that they have perceived WE would react - they get righteously indignant. "What are you talking about? Why are you talking to me like this? I do not deserve such language from you!"</p><p></p><p>Does this sound familiar?</p><p></p><p>Explosive Child can help with this. It takes courage and it takes good communication between you and your fiance, but aside from that, it is actually easier to implement, than what you are doing now.</p><p></p><p>Keep a diary on him, do check out the sticky (both the one here for new members, and the one on Early Childhood on Explosive Child) and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, for that appointment coming up soon to give you some good answers.</p><p></p><p>Welcome aboard!</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 202306, member: 1991"] Ehlena, you and your fiance sound like you really have your hands full. You have already found some useful information about him - punishment only makes him resentful. Rewards make him feel entitled. This tells me that he isn't 'getting' the connection between his actions and the consequences. And he says he doesn't feel he is loved (the others are correct, don't take this personally). Congratulate him for being brave enough to be honest about his feelings but recognise that how HE feels is not necessarily what is really going on. Obviously you and your partner love him, but he says he isn't feeling it. That is not surprising, given his age and his problems. Part of it too, is I suspect him thinking, how could anyone love me when I am so difficult sometimes? I think at some level he worries that he is unlovable, based on how you and your fiance are responding to him. You and your fiance are following strict parenting, the sort of things we all grew up with knowing to be the right way to handle a difficult child - be strict, be firm, be consistent. The trouble is, for some kids this is wrong. Sounds crazy, but sometimes we have to do things almost the opposite, to get some good results. And frankly, with kids like this it's the results we want, tat speak the loudest. "Explosive Child" spells it out well. If you want a fast preview, there is some good discussion of this book in the Stickies in the Early Childhood forum, on how to adapt it to younger children. It's difficult to describe it quickly, but it IS simple in principle - it swaps the adult as controller (and seen by the child as obstacle) for adult as supporter and facilitator. It hands control to the child - a scary thought. But it does it in ways that parents can accept, in the same way you allow a child learning to walk, to take those steps feeling as if they are allowed to choose where they want to walk. They don't see that their parents are behind them with hands outstretched at the ready. Back to this boy - he feels he knows best. To handle this, you can either tell him otherwise (yeah, like THAT'S working!) or let him try it his way (with you at the ready just in case) to see what will happen. It is often the most effective way for them to learn, if they just will not learn any other way. On the ADHD front (or whatever it is) - your son can read well and has comprehension there, but isn't doing well when people give him a talking-to. This does sound very familiar, and CAN be connected to ADHD. Can be other things too. We had this especially badly with difficult child 1 and we dealt with it (still do, to a lesser extent) by putting it in writing. If there are chores to be done - we make a list. If there are instructions to follow - we write them down. An example with difficult child 1 - we would be having afternoon tea with friends at their home, where difficult child 1 had not been before. He asked to go to the bathroom and they said, "Sure. Go through that door and turn left, it's the fourth door on the right. The light switch is outside the door." difficult child 1 would be lucky to get to the first door before having to ask, "Which direction again? How far?" If you physically took him there he would be OK. But trying to remember an abstract sequence of even simple instructions, he would forget and lose track. We worked out what we figured was happening - his short-term memory (the one you use to remember a phone number you've just looked up, for example) didn't seem to be working. It is short-term memory which manipulates information in your head, that helps you remember steps in a procedure, that helps you with a lot of simple tasks. difficult child 1 would use his remarkably good long-term memory as a substitute. So if he looked up a phone number, he would often remember it for months. If he watched a documentary on TV on a favourite topic, he would remember the narration almost perfectly. We could ask, "What was that nature program on eagles saying about the distribution of Golden Eagles?" months later and he would be able to tell us. difficult child 1 was diagnosed as ADHD when he was 6, but some years later at about 14 or 15, was diagnosed as Asperger's plus ADHD. Stims HAVE helped him, also helped difficult child 3 immensely. But there's no guarantee. What helped us - adapting to what he needed, trying to find ways to make it easier for him by using aides such as written lists, mind-mapping (for essay plans) and recognising that despite his high intelligence, he wasn't able to demonstrate this because of subtle learning problems which are too easily masked by a bright kid. They don't deliberately hide their abilities; it is simply a way of adapting to their condition and trying to fit in like everyone else. Example - I am very short-sighted, always have been. But at school I managed to slide by because I found if I squinted my eyes tightly, I could see a little further (there is a scientific explanation for why this works). When I was getting my eyes tested by the school nurse, I passed the eye test by squinting. The school nurse didn't notice; after all, I had just read the required line. She hadn't been looking at me, she had been looking at the chart to check that I was reading it correctly. I wasn't trying to be sneaky; the nurse wanted me to do as well as I could, surely? But I DID go home and tell my mother, "I know the school nurse said I could read the eye chart, but I had to squint to do it and surely that's not right?" I was independently aware that I was having trouble with my eyes and I asked for help. If my suspicions are right about your son, he is going to seem very disrespectful, tactless, rude and arrogant. But this is perhaps not what he is really like, if my hunch is right. difficult child 3 comes across like this. His behaviour was made worse when people reacted negatively to this in him. You would think a kid would learn, if you seem disrespectful and people react with hostility, then you learn to not be so disrespectful? With some kids, it just doesn't work that way, it backfires. Because a person reacting with hostility is often seeming to be equally disrespectful! The age or status of the person doesn't matter, to the child - they don't necessarily discriminate. Everybody is equal. So sarcasm, scolding, even expressing disappointment - doesn't sink in. Or it confuses them. What they need first, even before they have "earned" it, as you might thing - is to be treated with the same respect you would like to receive from them. You CAN say to them, "Why did you say that to me? You sounded very disrespectful when you said that, I didn't disrespect you. What you should have said was, ...". This statement makes no judgement about the child's intentions. You have merely expressed how YOU felt in response to the child's actions/words and then modelled how it SHOULD have been done/said. You do it calmly, gently, politely. Quietly. Then move on. Ignore apparent rudeness, do not react or let it escalate a situation. Instead, try to get to the real crux of an inter-reaction. Sometimes apparent rudeness can come out of anxiety. difficult child 3 can get VERY anxious about all sorts of surprising things. For example, driving to his drama class. "Mum, why are you going this way? It's stupid; we're already late, we're going to be even later now, because you didn't listen. You've done it wrong!" Now please note - he didn't say I was stupid, only what I did. And he was wrong - I drove a longer way but a quicker one. Instead of scolding him (which will heighten his anxiety only it will come out as anger, indignation, resentment and then hostility) I reassure. "It's OK, I know what I'm doing. If I drive the other way I have to slow down to 50 k/h. This way I'm able to drive at 90 k/h for most of the way. The other way, I have four roundabouts, all busy. This way I have two, both quiet. Don't worry, we'll be on time." He quiets down a bit (instead of the alternative - getting louder and ruder - not good to arrive at class tense and angry). Once at class (in time) I say, "We're here. We're not late. Do you feel less anxious now?" I don't ask for an apology - I mightn't get it, because he will still be a little bit anxious until he gets in and his class starts. On the way home we can talk about it. Or next week when he again says, "Mum! You're going the wrong way again!" That is when I can say, "Remember last week? I said then, I do know what I'm doing. It's OK." It doesn't sound like anxiety. It sounds like rudeness and anger. But treating it as anxiety has change how difficult child 3 responds to us, which lessens his anxiety, which improves our interactions, which improves his trust of us, which improves how he speaks to us, which... you get the picture. I do have to stop other people from over-reacting to his apparent rudeness. mother in law used to correct him far too much (in my opinion) but finally understood what we'd been trying to tell her about how to handle him. Lately, however, she's begun to correct him for how he speaks to me. To his credit, he no longer reacts to her when she does this. He has also begun to apologise for perceived rudeness, usually after the wave of anxiety has past. Think about how WE react when we see our child do something suddenly dangerous, such as run out onto the road after a ball. We shout at our child, we scold, we say, "How could you do such a foolhardy thing?" To a child like my difficult child 3, and I suspect like yours, this doesn't sound like our fear for them, it sounds like us being angry with them for no good cause. They will therefore react in the same manner that they have perceived WE would react - they get righteously indignant. "What are you talking about? Why are you talking to me like this? I do not deserve such language from you!" Does this sound familiar? Explosive Child can help with this. It takes courage and it takes good communication between you and your fiance, but aside from that, it is actually easier to implement, than what you are doing now. Keep a diary on him, do check out the sticky (both the one here for new members, and the one on Early Childhood on Explosive Child) and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, for that appointment coming up soon to give you some good answers. Welcome aboard! Marg [/QUOTE]
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