InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
What I struggle with is that I am not good at routines myself, so I have a very hard time enforcing them for my kids sake. :p

From one ADD parent to another...
1) yes, YOU need this too...
2) might be time for your own medications review... I sure had to up my medications when life got complicated.
3) try this book for yourself: Driven to Distraction (Halloway, I think). It is a really balanced book about ADHD. Another good one is something like Journey into ADDulthood (spelling is on purpose - and that word is definitely in the title).
 

chrisb

New Member
From one ADD parent to another...
1) yes, YOU need this too...
2) might be time for your own medications review... I sure had to up my medications when life got complicated.
3) try this book for yourself: Driven to Distraction (Halloway, I think). It is a really balanced book about ADHD. Another good one is something like Journey into ADDulthood (spelling is on purpose - and that word is definitely in the title).

Thanks for the book recs. This is a good point. Do you take medications for the ADD? I have a (short acting) ritalin prescription, but I find if I take it every day my stomach starts to hurt (burn really), so I only take it when I feel like I really need it. I'm a grad student, so the really need is usually study/class related. But this is a good point that if I was more regulated all the time I might be able to better help my kids. We talked about whether I wanted to try adderall or one of the others but my doctor wasn't sure if they wouldn't have similar issues, so I just left it as is with the caveat that if I found I needed to take it often enough to cause problems I'd consider changing.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
If I could afford it, I'd be on Concerta - but we don't have extended drug plan for adults... so, I'm on straight Ritalin. (Concerta is the same chemical composition with a different delivery mechanism).

I'd definitely be looking at trying other stims... if you find Ritalin "works" and the problem is "side effects", then I'd stick with the stims... but there are others, and its worth getting the right one.
 

chrisb

New Member
If I could afford it, I'd be on Concerta - but we don't have extended drug plan for adults... so, I'm on straight Ritalin. (Concerta is the same chemical composition with a different delivery mechanism).

I'd definitely be looking at trying other stims... if you find Ritalin "works" and the problem is "side effects", then I'd stick with the stims... but there are others, and its worth getting the right one.

Ah yes, I believe that was the one my doctor prescribed for me once, but when I got to the pharmacy and got the $150 pricetag I was like 'um, no thanks!'.
 

keista

New Member
WOW! Insane and I are disagreeing! That's RARE!

But not really. I'm pushing on option one right now only because from your first post (subsequent posts went up while I was composing) That was the most obvious first step. Yes it does seem like your kids have underlying issues, as do you - ADD, Anxiety, Depression. When were you diagnosed with these? If only as an adult, do you feel they were there when you were a kid? If as a kid, then there you have it. These things do run in families. Are your Dad or brother diagnosed with anything? If not, do you think they should be?

OK, lets take the hair as an example of what I'm talking about. She just doesn't care if her hair is brushed. Does she care if she leaves the house, EVER? The choice isn't to brush or not to brush, but brush and go out or don't brush and sit home. That's how it's modeled at school. Their choice isn't do work or don't do work, the choice is in how and where, but the work MUST get done, just like hair brushing MUST get done.

Giving kids a choice is giving kids control. You even stated that you don't force them to do their homework, so they happily do it for hours - not forced, their choice. The things that MUST get done in the home should be presented the same way, but that's where we as parents get stuck. How do we present it so that they think it's THEIR idea. Buy turning an "order" or "request" into an option they have to think about. You can clean your room and have a sleepover, or no sleep over. Eat your peas or not, but if you don't finish your dinner (peas are part of the dinner) then there is no dessert. The choice is there for THEM to make. Here's where it gets even trickier. Once you give them their options, you stop talking. Do not engage in subsequent 'why's or negotiations or explanations. If you MUST say something because they are going on and on, remind them of their choice. Just like at school, some problems will still crop up, but the number and intensity should diminish.

Hitting. What are the consequences in your home for hitting? Is there a consistent follow through? When everyone is calm, are the actions and the consequences discussed AGAIN. I view hitting the same as cursing. It's a lame tool of the uneducated mind. IOW when the brain gets so frazzled that it can't find the next thought or word for an argument, it reaches for these "tools of last resort". The second a person starts to cuss or hit, they automatically lost the argument, because they either don't have a valid argument or the brain is no longer functioning sufficiently to argue. Kids need to be taught to recognize this and stop and cool down.

See, I always thought my kids wold take my word as gospel. I thought the whole "parents are stooooooooooopid" thing only started when kids became teenagers. How wrong I was! My first time it REALLY struck me was when son just started pre-K (no dxes yet - I thought the kid was a genius). He came home and said, "Mom, your name is *Keeeeesta*" He mispronounced it. "No, my name is *KAYSTA*" (spelled phonetically to get the picture here) He refused to believe me and kept arguing, and since he saw me riled up started saying my name over and over the WRONG way. I found out they were teaching kids their 'vital statistics' and the teacher had told him my name incorrectly. I picked up the phone to talk to teacher, but she was already gone, and guess what? It was a 3 day weekend! I had to endure 3 1/2 more days of this! After the long weekend, I called the teacher first thing in the morning. She promised she'd correct him that day. Sure enough he came home that day and said "Hey, Mom, you were right! Your name is *KAYSTA*" :groan: Point is, Mom was WRONG, teacher was RIGHT until proven otherwise. (and by the way having husband tell him he was wrong didn't help either) Many many times over the years, the kids just refused to believe me on things until they found their own 'proof'. And this includes things like brushing hair and teeth, taking baths, buckling in the car, etc. They need to get proof from the outside world (teachers, peers, TV, internet) that what Mom is asking for, falls within the scope of "normal" human expectations. I don't know why. I finally got to a place where I don't care why. I just find ways to get them their "proof" All three are currently in therapy just to give them "proof" that what mom is telling them things that are true and right.
 

keista

New Member
What I struggle with is that I am not good at routines myself, so I have a very hard time enforcing them for my kids sake. :p
:rofl: Oh this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO me too! I used to cringe at the word! Even now, I know that way too many of my shortcomings are causing problems for my kids. (I have anxiety, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and am a chronically disorganized hoarder) If I could *fix* ME, then the kids wouldn't have as many problems. (they do have their individual issues, but my issues make theirs more difficult to deal with)

So, how to handle the routine thing? ASK THEM. Sit down and ask them what they do in the morning, and what order they like to do it in. Write it down, and there's the routine! If they leave out the important stuff, remind them that it's has to be done and fit in there somewhere. Then do the after school time, and evening time, and bed time. If you break it up, it becomes less daunting, and you start realizing that WOW, you actually do have an enforceable routine. For my family the most structured and most evident routine is for eating. Son set it up when he was 6 and we have followed it ever since. It is OK and sometimes necessary to be flexible, but having the identified woutine gives a great starting point when any problems come up.

If there are chunks of "free time", the kids can list all the things they do like to do so they can refer to that whenever necessary. It doesn't have to be Monday - playdoh, Tuesday - painting, Wednesday - paper crafts. If THEY want it that structured, then go for it. Otherwise build the flexibility into the 'routine'
 

chrisb

New Member
WOW! Insane and I are disagreeing! That's RARE!

But not really. I'm pushing on option one right now only because from your first post (subsequent posts went up while I was composing) That was the most obvious first step. Yes it does seem like your kids have underlying issues, as do you - ADD, Anxiety, Depression. When were you diagnosed with these? If only as an adult, do you feel they were there when you were a kid? If as a kid, then there you have it. These things do run in families. Are your Dad or brother diagnosed with anything? If not, do you think they should be?
Depression I had as a teenager and in college, wasn't diagnosed until the end of college, ADD I was diagnosed in college, later told that it was really just the depression and even later redxed. I don't think I had them earlier than that, but I have a terrible long term memory. My dad and brother have been diagnosed with ADD, bro was on ritalin all through hs. I can't even begin to start on the things wrong with my father, that's a whole 'nother forum altogether. When you talk about someone who can't be wrong - he is it. I've never once seen him admit fault, he will go to his grave attacking you for even suggesting it.

OK, lets take the hair as an example of what I'm talking about. She just doesn't care if her hair is brushed. Does she care if she leaves the house, EVER? The choice isn't to brush or not to brush, but brush and go out or don't brush and sit home. That's how it's modeled at school. Their choice isn't do work or don't do work, the choice is in how and where, but the work MUST get done, just like hair brushing MUST get done.

Giving kids a choice is giving kids control. You even stated that you don't force them to do their homework, so they happily do it for hours - not forced, their choice. The things that MUST get done in the home should be presented the same way, but that's where we as parents get stuck. How do we present it so that they think it's THEIR idea. Buy turning an "order" or "request" into an option they have to think about. You can clean your room and have a sleepover, or no sleep over. Eat your peas or not, but if you don't finish your dinner (peas are part of the dinner) then there is no dessert. The choice is there for THEM to make. Here's where it gets even trickier. Once you give them their options, you stop talking. Do not engage in subsequent 'why's or negotiations or explanations. If you MUST say something because they are going on and on, remind them of their choice. Just like at school, some problems will still crop up, but the number and intensity should diminish.

Hitting. What are the consequences in your home for hitting? Is there a consistent follow through? When everyone is calm, are the actions and the consequences discussed AGAIN. I view hitting the same as cursing. It's a lame tool of the uneducated mind. IOW when the brain gets so frazzled that it can't find the next thought or word for an argument, it reaches for these "tools of last resort". The second a person starts to cuss or hit, they automatically lost the argument, because they either don't have a valid argument or the brain is no longer functioning sufficiently to argue. Kids need to be taught to recognize this and stop and cool down.

See, I always thought my kids wold take my word as gospel. I thought the whole "parents are stooooooooooopid" thing only started when kids became teenagers. How wrong I was! My first time it REALLY struck me was when son just started pre-K (no dxes yet - I thought the kid was a genius). He came home and said, "Mom, your name is *Keeeeesta*" He mispronounced it. "No, my name is *KAYSTA*" (spelled phonetically to get the picture here) He refused to believe me and kept arguing, and since he saw me riled up started saying my name over and over the WRONG way. I found out they were teaching kids their 'vital statistics' and the teacher had told him my name incorrectly. I picked up the phone to talk to teacher, but she was already gone, and guess what? It was a 3 day weekend! I had to endure 3 1/2 more days of this! After the long weekend, I called the teacher first thing in the morning. She promised she'd correct him that day. Sure enough he came home that day and said "Hey, Mom, you were right! Your name is *KAYSTA*" :groan: Point is, Mom was WRONG, teacher was RIGHT until proven otherwise. (and by the way having husband tell him he was wrong didn't help either) Many many times over the years, the kids just refused to believe me on things until they found their own 'proof'. And this includes things like brushing hair and teeth, taking baths, buckling in the car, etc. They need to get proof from the outside world (teachers, peers, TV, internet) that what Mom is asking for, falls within the scope of "normal" human expectations. I don't know why. I finally got to a place where I don't care why. I just find ways to get them their "proof" All three are currently in therapy just to give them "proof" that what mom is telling them things that are true and right.

This sounds exactly like my kids.

I understand. We already do this. We give them as much choice as they can possibly have. I've taken classes on redirecting cihldren's behavior. I've studied non-violent communication. I've read books on the subject (though granted a while ago, I need to refresh). The problems arise when things just have to be done. I'm not saying we don't get compliance. She brushes her hair daily, she has the choice to do it at home or in the car, if it isn't done by the time we get to school she has the choice to do it right then or I will do it (something she hates). The problem is my life is miserable because going through getting her to do it means I get yelled at ("*I* KNOW!!!" "LEAVE ME ALONE!!"- while she makes an angry face) or hits me, etc. I get the look of death on a regular basis. And usually after a while the battle for that one thing dies down. Hairbrushing is actually not a big problem right now, she generally brushes it on her own. She asked me to braid it today. The problem is there is always another problem. The problem is I'm worn out, I'm touchy because I can't take being treated like this all the time.

the written list may work well for that becuase they do best if they do things on their own without being asked. The problem is they don't do it consistently. One day I get up and they are already dressed, lunches packed ready to go. The next day they will have done nothing and take forever and fight me on everything and I might be hounding them until we are out the door late.

Actually for some reason they seem to work so that only one child is defiant at a time. Usually if my son is being defiant my daughter is behaving well or visa versa. In some ways thats good, I don't often have to deal with both of them at the same time, but in other ways its bad, it means we rarely have nice peaceful days with no one in a power struggle.

Edited to add - I think this also causes problems because the good one often ends up punished too. If the consequence is that we don't get to go to Grammy's tonight (something that happened yesterday because my daughter was acting so horribly) my poor son was punished too even though he was behaving. It doesn't help to reinforce the good behavior if he gets punished anyway. :(

For hitting, the punishment is usually 5 minutes in your room, because what they really need is a chance to get away from whatever is upsetting them and calm down. Of course telling them this often results in more hitting, more misbehavior until the punishment goes up significantly. The punishment is consistent at home. When we are out I don't have a good solution. Time-out does not work for them in a public setting, because similar to at home they will resist bodily and at at the top of their lungs, which I just cannot deal with in public.
 

chrisb

New Member
Thank you everyone by the way, this has been really helpful - I'm really not trying to disagree and argue, just trying to better explain the problem. I feel a little bit better than I did this morning. I ordered the explosive child (wish it was available on kindle!) and I'm going to try to see if we can get a routine written down and I'm going to work on how I react to things. I wish I was more patient, I just have such a hard time dealing with this day in and day out.
 

chrisb

New Member
When DS was younger (though he still does this somewhat) he would lean on me ALL the time. At dinner at home, in restaurants, on the couch, standing somewhere, he would always be leaning on me, pushing me. Not in an aggressive way or anything. He was a very affectionate kid. But after a while, something in me would just snap, I just couldn't take being leaned on anymore. The constant pushing back against him somehow wore on me, frazzled my nerves. He didn't do it maliciously, but he didn't listen to my requests to stop either. I would have to get up and switch seats with husband because I just couldn't take it anymore. (which of course upset him)

I've noticed that their behavior is doing the same thing to me. We went on a family vacation in August - 10 days, much of which was driving in the car. It was 2 days too long for me. I just was so frazzled at the end, I couldn't deal with them at all. Luckily husband understood this and mostly buffered me. Since they are in school all day, it isn't as bad as when they are with me 24/7, but its just wearing me down. I don't make good decisions about their behavior, I snap too quickly, etc. as a result. I'm not sure what the solution is. I have let exercise slack over the spring/summer though and I'm going to make that a priority again.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Hugs, chrisb. For whatever it's worth, or however it helps, I understand. Weekends are also definitely harder for me, when I am with my son all the time. I too sometimes feel like I just can't do this very well. You have two to deal with - but then I have no partner :) ODD behaviour is so demoralising and draining. I definitely see how my own reactions exacerbate or help circumvent it but... sometimes it's too much trying to be more than human :)
Tomorrow... is another day.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
DS... "leaning" - its like he has no concept of personal space.
Its one of those things that falls somewhere between ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)...
NOT that he is necessarily Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) - but, could be like my DS... and have "clinically significant traits" along that line without having enough traits to meet diagnostic cutoffs.

This is where a comprehensive evaluation helps... they can tell you where the 'edges' are even if it doesn't result in a diagnosis. If its Aspie/Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) traits... then you go read up on that stuff and get more ideas that work.
 

chrisb

New Member
DS... "leaning" - its like he has no concept of personal space.
Its one of those things that falls somewhere between ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)...
NOT that he is necessarily Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) - but, could be like my DS... and have "clinically significant traits" along that line without having enough traits to meet diagnostic cutoffs.

This is where a comprehensive evaluation helps... they can tell you where the 'edges' are even if it doesn't result in a diagnosis. If its Aspie/Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) traits... then you go read up on that stuff and get more ideas that work.

Hmmm, I would be surprised if he was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but I can see he might have some traits in common. My uncle (on my mother's side, as opposed to my father's where all this ODD/ADD comes from) was clearly Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) & Autistic. He was born too long ago to be diagnosed as a child. He was just always 'weird' according to my mother. He lived with my grandfather until my grandmother passed away (he was probably 50 at this point) and my grandfather sold the house to basically get rid of him, he bought a trailer. He was a nice guy, but excruciatingly painful to talk to - he would tell you all about the minutia of his pizza deliveries, who tipped him, how may pizzas, etc. He was extremely stubborn. My grandfather tried to get him help, but he wouldn't go. He reached a point where he couldn't work because he refused to do certain things (like work at certain hours), couldn't get more training, etc. He was also diabetic and 5 years ago died of diabetic shock. My brothers and cousins cleaned out the trailer and it was very eye opening. He had taken everything he could have possibly stuffed into his trailer of things that was his mothers. His bedroom was filled with her clothes for example. It was in horrible condition, holes in the floor covered with plywood, thick dust everywhere. Stuffed to the gills, Piles of things he kept like receipts and bills, magazines, couldn't throw anything out, etc. We found a box of papers where he would keep it in his pocket and he wrote down everything he did every day and filed them in order. Looking back we realized how attached he was to his mother and when she died he really never did recover. I do worry that my son might be like him - he just wasn't ever able to function in society. I could see that he might have some traits along those lines, but he is pretty normal in a lot of ways.

Sorry, I know I'm going on and on, but I find it very useful to write out my thoughts "think out loud" so to speak.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, I would be surprised if he was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but I can see he might have some traits in common.

Welcome to the roller-coaster ride.
But in this case - I think your first reaction is probably correct. He will not likely be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or even Asperger's... but some traits will be there.
Knowing this is family history... start researching Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) traits like respecting personal space, and see if you can find some specific ideas on how to teach this. (others on the board may have ideas too... that one is not something I have had to deal with).

With or without testing and results... try out theories on your own, see if the interventions work. And document everything you try - for how long, what kind of results, etc. All of this is useful info when you finally get to a specialist.
 

keista

New Member
Hmmmmmm that "leaning" struck a chord with me as well. DD1 does this. Less now that before (she's 10 now) For her it's tied to her anxiety and moods. You know how you "lean" on someone for emotional support? Well, she actually does this physically. And I've snapped at her about it more than once because, well, because I was in a "snappish" mood.

So what I'm seeing here is that although you are taking care of yourself, you seem to be going through a rough patch. You might want to consider adjusting, changing, or adding onto your medications to help you through. Or the solution may be even simpler like getting back to the school year routine. You mentioned exercise. That may be all you need. Even parents of PCs get frazzled and "snappish" by the end of summer because it's just too long.
 

chrisb

New Member
So what I'm seeing here is that although you are taking care of yourself, you seem to be going through a rough patch. You might want to consider adjusting, changing, or adding onto your medications to help you through. Or the solution may be even simpler like getting back to the school year routine. You mentioned exercise. That may be all you need. Even parents of PCs get frazzled and "snappish" by the end of summer because it's just too long.

Yeah, I learned long ago when I chose to quit work to stay home with daughter when she was 9 months that I definitely need some time away. We kept her in the daycare an afternoon a week so I could get that. After DS was born we moved and I didn't have that option anymore, it was a very very very hard couple years and in the end when daughter went to preschool we paid for him to go to a daycare for the same time period a few hours because I could not handle not having a break. Now they are both in school full time and I am in grad school so I have something that is occupying my brain (a big problem as a stay at home mom, I was bored to tears), but the summers are very hard.

Of course since I spent all day upset about this, and since picking them up from school the kids have been fine (with only one sibling hitting incident). They are really sweet kids when they are cooperating. Sigh.
 
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