new here... long but opinions wanted

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Oh dear, Trstyourself, so sorry!

Heather, My difficult child still does that! "I'm hungry." I hate it when he does that!

Spitting on the teacher is definitely a no-no. Telling you she's not welcome is... wow... seems like they'd give her one more chance.

How did the testing go?
 

trsturself

New Member
Sorry for the delayed response. Been really busy around here.
I was lucky that she only got tv taken away. My husband is still of the mind that we don't punish enough. I'm making progress on him but it's hard to change someone's mind that was raised by a strict cop. I think I've convinced him of the benefit of positive reinforcement but not completely for the absence of punishment.
Progress is happening though.

difficult child is doing much better now that she has a different teacher and a different day care. She has only been to the office once since I posted this. This time it was because she got angry and threw her chair down and accidentally hit another kid and then scratched her teacher. I talked to her that evening and eventually she realized the main thing she is upset about is that she feels like the teacher doesn't listen to her. So we've worked on ways to handle that feeling and talk to her teacher so she knows what she wants.
We've tried techniques like deep breathing, saying the alphabet, or doing math in her head to help her calm herself. She says it helps when she's sad to keep from crying but doesn't help when she's angry. So she came up with the idea of bringing a stress ball or a silky (one of her blankies) to school to help her calm down. We bought her a stress ball yesterday and she told me tonight that she showed it to the teacher and told her what it was for and her teacher said she that sounded like a good thing and she could keep it in her cubby. That's a point for this teacher. Unfortunately difficult child popped the ball (it was a gel one) today (just playing). So we'll have to buy another and try again.

Dr visit (pediatrician)... she was diagnosed with- acid reflux for her recurrent stomachaches and vomiting. She also said from the few symptoms we mentioned that the first thing to pop into her head was aspergers. She said this because we said she has some balance issues, wasn't looking the dr in the eye (she was busy playing with blocks), and because she has trouble making friends.
I looked up the core symptoms of aspergers (I know there are many ways it can show itself, but there are a few that are distinctive of aspergers) and she doesn't have these symptoms. My mom is a resource teacher and she was stunned that the doctor said this. Mom said there's no way she has aspergers.
The symptoms she has are much more inline with Sensory Integration Disorder (SID), ODD and being gifted.

I think another big issue is getting the teacher to differentiate her work and give her harder stuff.
We have to get a neuro-psychiatric exam preapproved per insurance, so we're waiting on that before we can make an appointment.
 
F

flutterbee

Guest
I know you don't think she has aspergers, but since the pediatrician mentioned it, this is a good site to look at. There is also an assessment that is NOT diagnostic, but can provide helpful information to the diagnostician.

http://www.childbrain.com/

It sounds like this new daycare is a good fit. Surrounding our difficult child's with the right people makes a big difference.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I also think your mum is being too hasty. She MAY be right, but it should be INDEPENDENTLY investigated. There are a lot of differences between different kids. difficult child 3's Year 1 teacher is a case in point. I had asked to speak to her BEFORE she had difficult child 3 in her class; she told me that she understands autism because one of her own sons is high-functioning autistic. I told her, "difficult child 3 is different." I explained how he is outgoing, talkative (even when he didn't have a lot of language), very bright and capable in some areas, made good eye contact - she seemed to hear but said she would be fine with him.
At the end of the first day I met with her briefly on the classroom steps. "You're right, he IS different, isn't he?"

easy child doesn't think easy child 2/difficult child 2 is Asperger's. She thinks she's just being difficult. I beg to differ - yes, she's difficult, but some things like her partial face blindness, her poor eye contact with people she doesn't know, the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) issues, and the extreme anxiety/stress - it all fits.

Your daughter - your mother is saying it's not Asperger's, it's Sensory Integration Disorder (SID), Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and giftedness - what's the difference? And where does the Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) come from? In my book, when you get all those things together PLUS a kid who is bright, you check out other things and consider the likelihood of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form.

Whatever it is, whether it's "just" Sensory Integration Disorder (SID), Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) & giftedness, or it's Asperger's, how you manage is almost exactly the same. To me it's like saying, "My child isn't blonde, she's just got fair hair."

When your daughter is older it's sometimes easier to see to what extent you're dealing with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and what is just Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) & Sensory Integration Disorder (SID). The Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) things to look for - social interactions, especially with her peers. Even a bright peer (with not Sensory Integration Disorder (SID)/Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) issues) - a bright child who is not Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) should be able to get along fine. A Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid will show increasing social difficulty in the first five to ten years. The brighter the child (and milder the PDD0 the more readily she will adapt (and the more you need to examine the fine detail).
Also to look for - the ability (or lack of) in dealing with hidden meaning in text, conversation, education, interactions. A really good one to test NOW is theory of mind (I think I already mentioned it?). If your mother is an educator, also get her to do some basic tests (unofficial ones) to see how she goes; for example, does she show conservation? (Piaget tests). How does she see herself? How does she see other people? Does she behave as if she expects the adults in her life to be able to read her mind? Does she seem to expect that you know exactly what she wants, and having to tell you is a blasted nuisance clearly designed to aggravate her? Does she talk to adults as if they are naughty children? This is what happens a lot with bright Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids; they dish out in behaviour what they receive. They model, often after minimal exposure (they are also good mimics - it's connected). For example, easy child 2/difficult child 2 at age 2 or 3, sitting in her high chair, would pound her tiny fist on the tray and say, "I said I wanted JUICE! Why can't you do what you're told?"
It might sound funny (to an outsider) but you can't effectively discipline this because in her mind, she was treating me as she had learned from receiving it (from husband, from me, from her pre-school teachers). It is also a matter of degree - you can get this sometimes, in passing, from a 'normal' kid, but it's far more common (and harder to change) in a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid. To change a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid you first have to change how you treat them.

Also bear in mind - a doting grandmother would far rather believe there is something small and transient wrong with her otherwise EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT grandaughter, than accept a diagnosis like Asperger's. "Of course she's different, she's a genius," is how people prefer to think when they have a strong emotional investment.

The acid reflux - this can be almost entirely due to the degree of emotional stress caused by the child doing her utmost to adapt, as fast as she can - also connected to a highly intelligent Aspie. Keep an eye on it, see if you can observe any emotional triggers. For example, difficult child 3 loved going to school, he liked being with the other kids, he LOVED all his teachers including the ones who really were horrible to him (he will see them at the shops and go out of his way to go and talk to them, to say hello). But at school he would suddenly go pasty white, very quiet and feel nauseous. He would sometimes delay telling the teacher because he didn't want to miss the lesson, and would sometimes be vomiting. The problems got worse and worse, we were looking for a physical cause because when we kept him home from school he wanted to be back there. He would be well for a few days at home so we would send him back - and he would be vomiting again. Or nauseous, and sent to sick bay.
Then at the end of summer holidays (he had been well the entire summer) a week before school, he said to be suddenly, "If kids bully me next year, I will just walk away."
"That is very good, I am glad you feel in control," I replied and hugged him.
Half an hour later he was nauseous. He had made a POSITIVE statement but it had reminded him of the nearness of school, which had somehow reminded his body of the immense emotional effort he made to "pretend to be normal" (as he puts it) for those hours at school.
That is when we began to really see the connection.

I'm not saying that school is the cause of your daughter's anxiety - there can be many causes. But "acid reflux" is simply a statement of "her stomach is producing more acid than it needs to and it's causing heartburn," which happens for a range of reasons. One of those reasons can be extreme anxiety, which also fits with Asperger's.

Scientists talk about Occam's Razor, which is a maxim which states that when you are looking for an explanation, the simplest and most likely is the one to give most consideration to. In the case of your daughter, the explanation COULD be Sensory Integration Disorder (SID), plus Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), plus "very bright" plus acid reflux, all happening as individual events. Or it could all be explained as one single all-encompassing diagnosis of Asperger's (or similar).

My sister for years had shaky hands, sweaty palms, her hair falling out, dry skin, losing weight and had a deep sense of impending doom. Her family doctor said she was nervy ("take some valium"), suffering from depression ("snap out of it"), working too hard ("make time for you, eat a balanced diet"), and in need of a good hair conditioner and moisturiser. He found a series of separate diagnoses to explain the symptoms.
It took ten years before a doctor put it all together and diagnosed an overactive thyroid (which explained everything).

Get your husband to read "The Explosive Child", or if he can't/won't, then you explain it to him. The important message for him is that the way he was raised was good - for him. There is nothing wrong with his own upbringing. A lot of us were raised that way. But it is not the right way for some other children. Sometimes it seems you have to turn all the good ideas upside down, but it DOES work, there is a sound logic to it. To modify the upbringing the way Ross Greene describes it it to actually speed up the process and teach the child (well ahead of schedule) to teach himself; the child learns self-control faster then expected instead of parents having to exert the control. Good parents will do this in an atmosphere of love and support so the child is still safe from making dangerous mistakes. But if you try to control a child like this, in the way your husband's father controlled him - you engage in a battle of wills that you risk losing. Even if you do not lose, the resentment builds up and although it can take several years, the hold on the child is lost at the most dangerous time - their teens.

This is a lesson husband has had to learn. It has been difficult for him be he can see the logic and has also seen what works better. The payoff for us is when total strangers come up to us and tell us what a polite, well-mannered, law-abiding child we have in difficult child 3. They don't see how we have to constantly watch what we do or say, to keep the direction positive and productive. As he's getting older and more in self-control, we need to be less scrupulously careful.

Would your husband lurk here? It certainly helped my husband to do so. It also helped our own communication with each other (which we already thought was as good as we could get it; we found we now do even better).

Your husband's upbringing can come in handy, by keeping you all consistent. But you both need to be a team, and for that you both need to have the same understanding.

Marg
 

Sara PA

New Member
On thing you might want to keep in mind: When pressured to provide an explanation for their behavior, kids might not give an honest answer. Not because they lie, but because they don't know the answer. But they are forced to have an answer. Being made to explain assumes that the child can explain why s/he actd like s/he does. It assumes a choice, that the child made a choice to be bad. For many kids for many reasons, there is no explanation they can give because there is no choice being made. A malfunctioning brain can make a person do things s/he doesn't choose or want to do. Often those children display extreme remorse and promise never to act like that again because they are appalled that they did what they did and don't want to act like that. But the next time a stressful situation occurs, the malfunctioning brain takes over and there they go again.

I believe that your child is too young to have made the choice to act violently to get a new teacher. I believe someone suggested that explanation and, unable to come up with one herself, she repeated it.

The recurring stomachaches and vomitting...do they occur during stressful times? At a regular time during the day?

ETA: I went and brushed my teeth; running water makes me think and remember.

My brother explained the thing about needing to provide and explanation to me. He, like my son and I, has partial seizures. He use to do strange things when he was a kid, things about which he had no memory. He learned to glean what the problem was from the adults demanding an explanation and then to further glean the explanation that would be acceptable to them. He learned early on that it was better to admit he chose to do something bad than to admit he had no idea what anyone was talking about. He is quite bright and was able to do that time and again from a very young age. My son has the same type of partial seizures and, because we know more about what's going on in our brains than we did when my brother was a child, is able to admit he has little memory and no control over those episodes.

 

trsturself

New Member
Thank you all for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to write.
My daughter has been able to do the "NOW" test since she was young. She has no problem interacting with older children or adults, she just doesn't make a ton of friends her own age. My cousin's easy child is 10 and when she was out (she lives in TX, we live in CA) for a visit at my parent's house she requested that difficult child come over and spend the night and asked if she could hang out there on multiple occasions. They got along great. difficult child also has a best friend from her last school that they get along great. We do play dates with her and just listening to them play it's obvious difficult child does not have the social issues that go along with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) or aspergers. Like I said the main reasons the doctor said that was 1) the gross motor coordination issue (she can't ride a bike or throw a ball very well - of course she's never really tried either. she's only been on a bike twice and she didn't really like it) and 2) because she was engrossed with the blocks so she wouldn't look at the doctor when she was asking her questions - she gets engrossed in stuff easily and shuts everything else out (good skill later in life). I don't think this is enough of the main symptoms of aspergers, nor severe enough to make this diagnosis. She is missing the core symptoms of the social issues.

No one at home gave her the suggestion of the new teacher, trust me, we were shocked to hear her say it. It's quite possible that someone at school (principle?) gave her that idea and she is repeating it. Or she made the connection quite easily... if I scream loud enough in day care and get a new one, maybe it will work in class too. It surprised us because usually when she does something like this and we ask her what happened she says she doesn't know. So this was something that made us stop.

stomachaches.... yeah, I'm not completely convinced about that diagnosis either. but we could not find a pattern or any emotional trigger. my dad has acid reflux, and i get it occasionally when laying down, so we'll give the rx a try and see if it helps or not.

husband - doesn't read (scoptic sensativity). i think he's checked online a couple of times, but if it's long, he won't read it. frustrates me to no end. but he's just not a reader. And no, he doesn't usually have time to listen to anything as a cd. *sigh*
so I am the middleman. :smirk:

gotta run, i should've left 10 minutes ago!
 
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