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<blockquote data-quote="Petunia" data-source="post: 487218" data-attributes="member: 13251"><p>Thank you all for your responses. I'm going to try to feed out some more information requested by various people here (long post alert!):</p><p></p><p> 1. Has your younger child ever expressed any anxiety or anger about the behavior of your difficult child? Is he afraid of difficult child? Would you be willing to take easy child to see a therapist? Yes, in the past there was much more anxiety about difficult child, more recently is seems to be anger. He has been afraid of difficult child in the past, but difficult child largely leaves easy child alone now, focusing more of his aggression toward us, the parents. I have considered therapy for him, I have discussed it with him, and he has expressed anxiety about that because he's not one to discuss too much with a "stranger". He says he'd rather tell me or his "Grammie" (my mom) any feelings he has. My mom, due to her life experiences, has a lot of experience with therapists and has done pretty well coaching him up when he has expressed thoughts to her. I don't know if that's adequate or not.</p><p></p><p>2. SO...What on earth can be behind the attitude and behavior? Can you tell us more about his early years? before he started school, the first grades, middle school?</p><p>Oh my. OK, pregnancy, classic textbook normal. Delivery - very long (over 39 hours), very difficult, very traumatic. By the time the doctor realized difficult child was face-up and almost 10 lbs, we were too far along in the process to do anything over than proceed. Ended up with nurses holding the bed to keep it from dragging across the floor while doctor pulled with- forceps (hope that's not too graphic...it's true). Extensive reconstruction required for me afterward. difficult child had facial bruising, but was otherwise as healthy (and large) as a horse. He nursed well and slept well. He was not colicky and was pretty easy to soothe. He did all the physical stuff like walking pretty early (9 months). He always had an independent streak, even as a baby, about naps (he didn't like them), and began climbing out of his crib way before I expected it. He managed to escape from the house one night when he was about 18 months old. Luckily the sound of the door wakened me and I found him on the street corner before he got too far. That sticks out in my mind as the beginning of our real issues. We put a baby gate in his bedroom door, he climbed it. We put a deadbolt on the front door that required two hands to open (push a button while you turn a knob), he unlocked it. We put a chain on the door up high, he pulled a chair over and unlocked it. I found him on top of the refrigerator, the garage, and the privacy fence. I began sleeping on the couch to make sure he didn't get out. It was at about this same age he began to be aggressive at daycare and other venues. He was bigger than the other kids and would bite, hit, and push them down. He was eventually kicked out of all the daycare centers in our town due to these behaviors (and Sunday School. They asked us not to come back). He had no fear. Of anything. He never reacted the way my "what to expect" books said he should. Here's an example: We live in a house built in 1912 (translation: cold and drafty). We used a kerosene heater to aid our poor furnace in heating the house. He wanted to touch the heater. I drug him away from that thing countless times...over, and over, and over, telling him it was "hot". I distracted him, he would throw down whatever activity I had given him and return to that heater with his hand out. Finally, my mother in law said, "Let him touch it. He'll learn." One day, it happened. He climbed the barricade and made it to the heater before I realized it. He touched the heater, burned his hand and set his favorite blanket on fire. He never touched the heater again....never even tried. So I thought, Aha! He learns as long as it's own his own terms. Unfortunately, it isn't a popular idea for daycare to let the other kids learn to bite, hit, and push back. So started my journeys to the doctors. The first pediatrician told me the only problem with my child was that he didn't have a mother who loved him enough to stay home with him full time (I worked almost full time). At that point in my life I was not very good with confrontation. Luckily, mother in law was with me (God rest her soul) and she chewed him up and spit him out. We left with a referral to another pediatrician. It was determined that he was having repeated ear infections, so we started working on those (eventually tubes). He also referred us to a large Children's hospital in a major city. The doctor there told us there was definitely "something" wrong, but at almost 3 years old, he was too young to be diagnosed with much. He said that eventually we would probably be given a diagnosis of ADHD and that treatment could begin after he was in elementary school, but not before (remember, this is 1998). One thing he noted was that the child had "no natural fear". We were virtual prisoners in our home. We couldn't take him out in public places (like the park or McDonald's playland because he would terrorize other kids) When he was 4, I became pregnant with our 2nd child and I became a stay at home mom. Luckily, because we were out of daycare centers and had run through all of our friends and family who could fill in with daycare (no one could handle him. It was a 24/7 job to keep him from hurting himself or others). He was excited about his brother and never seemed anxious about him being there or asking about "sending him back". He didn't try to hurt the baby, he liked to help with getting diapers and so forth. He did continue to be aggressive toward other kids his age and sometimes toward me. In Kindergarten, he attacked another kid with a broomstick handle to the head. The father of that child threatened to kill our whole family if they didn't move my kid out of the class (obviously some issues there), so we were moved to another classroom. The aggressiveness toward others outside of our home really subsided in 1st grade. He began being more disruptive than aggressive, which wasn't popular with the teacher, but didn't garner any death threats from other parents, so I was OK with it. Once he was in school, we implemented a reward/consequence program suggested by the teacher. You know, smiley faces or green check marks earned him rewards, frowny faces or red checkmarks did not. This had no effect on him. Zero. But we doggedly persisted, at the advice of all the "experts" (pediatrician, principal, teacher, well-meaning friends and family). We tried consistency: If you do X, then your punishment is Y. If you do A, your reward is B. We didn't waiver, even when he threw himself on the floor and held his breath until he passed out. Eventually, in 3rd grade, the teachers said it was time to do an ADHD evaluation. He was diagnosed and we began our pharmaceutical adventure. Every single class of medication ever prescribed for ADHD...no effect. In 4th grade, the ODD diagnosis was added and we began Risperadal (sp?), no effect. We tried private school, thinking the smaller class size would help. Nope. In 5th grade, his grades plummeted to D's and F's rather than C's and B's. In middle school, all the behaviors just continued, but on a bigger scale and with less tolerance from the teachers. By this time I had returned to work part-time for the school district (even though I'm anti-School District. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, you know). I was quite accessible to all the teachers and administrators and I was either called or emailed daily about the disruptive behaviors (he was always polite to the teachers, just annoyed the tar out of everyone). Those discipline problems eventually escalated back into picking on other kids (nothing major). Then refusal to obey teacher requests, insubordination, etc., but through it all, he never displayed the absolute destruction, meltdown, full out rage that we would get at home.</p><p>As far as his friend choices, going all the way back to early elementary, his friends were always the most pitiful things he could drag home. Absent parents, terrible home lives, etc. I always let them come to our house to play because 1. I could keep an eye on them and 2. They could have dinner with us (for some reason I felt this was very important). His friendships tended to be intense and short-lived, but always the same type of kid. That pattern continues to this day, but they are no longer allowed to my house because by 8th grade the "friends" were breaking into the house and stealing from us. It took a while for me to realize this, but eventually I did and we don't allow them on our property anymore (again, he has never had a friendship that lasted more than a few months. Generally it's a few weeks. A kid becomes his "best" friend immediately and then is discarded after a while. I never have figured out if it's him or them that is terminating the friendship, but I tend to believe it's him because there were a couple of kids who would continue to come to the house asking to hang out and he would refuse to let them in, telling me they were "bad" or "dumb" or "mean". More recently he would tell me a person is "annoying" or "stupid" and that's why he doesn't hang out with them anymore. Of course, that was back when he could still speak to me like a halfway normal person).</p><p>Other things that really stick out - pathological lying (if he tells me the sky is blue, I'll go verify it just in case, been this way for a number of years); refusal to take responsibility for his actions, convinced that he is the center of the Universe; all things must work favorably toward him, but it doesn't matter how horribly he treats others; complete lack of understanding of consequences of his actions; complete and utter failure of any reward or consequence motivating him in any way; dislike for anything that requires more than minimal effort (like breathing) on his part.</p><p> </p><p>3. Insanecdn - it's funny you told me not to go look up Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), but you were too late. I had seen that in several people's signatures, so I had already googled it. The really strange thing is, my kid meets so many of the "classic" symptoms. Of course, he meets a lot of "classic" symptoms of a LOT of diagnoses, I'm sure!</p><p>4. Midwest Mom - My chihuahua seems to be the only person who really understands me. AND she lets me use her fur to soak up my tears. There's no greater love than this.</p><p>Since it took me most of the day to type this long dissertation, I think I'll stop here. Thanks, guys!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Petunia, post: 487218, member: 13251"] Thank you all for your responses. I'm going to try to feed out some more information requested by various people here (long post alert!): 1. Has your younger child ever expressed any anxiety or anger about the behavior of your difficult child? Is he afraid of difficult child? Would you be willing to take easy child to see a therapist? Yes, in the past there was much more anxiety about difficult child, more recently is seems to be anger. He has been afraid of difficult child in the past, but difficult child largely leaves easy child alone now, focusing more of his aggression toward us, the parents. I have considered therapy for him, I have discussed it with him, and he has expressed anxiety about that because he's not one to discuss too much with a "stranger". He says he'd rather tell me or his "Grammie" (my mom) any feelings he has. My mom, due to her life experiences, has a lot of experience with therapists and has done pretty well coaching him up when he has expressed thoughts to her. I don't know if that's adequate or not. 2. SO...What on earth can be behind the attitude and behavior? Can you tell us more about his early years? before he started school, the first grades, middle school? Oh my. OK, pregnancy, classic textbook normal. Delivery - very long (over 39 hours), very difficult, very traumatic. By the time the doctor realized difficult child was face-up and almost 10 lbs, we were too far along in the process to do anything over than proceed. Ended up with nurses holding the bed to keep it from dragging across the floor while doctor pulled with- forceps (hope that's not too graphic...it's true). Extensive reconstruction required for me afterward. difficult child had facial bruising, but was otherwise as healthy (and large) as a horse. He nursed well and slept well. He was not colicky and was pretty easy to soothe. He did all the physical stuff like walking pretty early (9 months). He always had an independent streak, even as a baby, about naps (he didn't like them), and began climbing out of his crib way before I expected it. He managed to escape from the house one night when he was about 18 months old. Luckily the sound of the door wakened me and I found him on the street corner before he got too far. That sticks out in my mind as the beginning of our real issues. We put a baby gate in his bedroom door, he climbed it. We put a deadbolt on the front door that required two hands to open (push a button while you turn a knob), he unlocked it. We put a chain on the door up high, he pulled a chair over and unlocked it. I found him on top of the refrigerator, the garage, and the privacy fence. I began sleeping on the couch to make sure he didn't get out. It was at about this same age he began to be aggressive at daycare and other venues. He was bigger than the other kids and would bite, hit, and push them down. He was eventually kicked out of all the daycare centers in our town due to these behaviors (and Sunday School. They asked us not to come back). He had no fear. Of anything. He never reacted the way my "what to expect" books said he should. Here's an example: We live in a house built in 1912 (translation: cold and drafty). We used a kerosene heater to aid our poor furnace in heating the house. He wanted to touch the heater. I drug him away from that thing countless times...over, and over, and over, telling him it was "hot". I distracted him, he would throw down whatever activity I had given him and return to that heater with his hand out. Finally, my mother in law said, "Let him touch it. He'll learn." One day, it happened. He climbed the barricade and made it to the heater before I realized it. He touched the heater, burned his hand and set his favorite blanket on fire. He never touched the heater again....never even tried. So I thought, Aha! He learns as long as it's own his own terms. Unfortunately, it isn't a popular idea for daycare to let the other kids learn to bite, hit, and push back. So started my journeys to the doctors. The first pediatrician told me the only problem with my child was that he didn't have a mother who loved him enough to stay home with him full time (I worked almost full time). At that point in my life I was not very good with confrontation. Luckily, mother in law was with me (God rest her soul) and she chewed him up and spit him out. We left with a referral to another pediatrician. It was determined that he was having repeated ear infections, so we started working on those (eventually tubes). He also referred us to a large Children's hospital in a major city. The doctor there told us there was definitely "something" wrong, but at almost 3 years old, he was too young to be diagnosed with much. He said that eventually we would probably be given a diagnosis of ADHD and that treatment could begin after he was in elementary school, but not before (remember, this is 1998). One thing he noted was that the child had "no natural fear". We were virtual prisoners in our home. We couldn't take him out in public places (like the park or McDonald's playland because he would terrorize other kids) When he was 4, I became pregnant with our 2nd child and I became a stay at home mom. Luckily, because we were out of daycare centers and had run through all of our friends and family who could fill in with daycare (no one could handle him. It was a 24/7 job to keep him from hurting himself or others). He was excited about his brother and never seemed anxious about him being there or asking about "sending him back". He didn't try to hurt the baby, he liked to help with getting diapers and so forth. He did continue to be aggressive toward other kids his age and sometimes toward me. In Kindergarten, he attacked another kid with a broomstick handle to the head. The father of that child threatened to kill our whole family if they didn't move my kid out of the class (obviously some issues there), so we were moved to another classroom. The aggressiveness toward others outside of our home really subsided in 1st grade. He began being more disruptive than aggressive, which wasn't popular with the teacher, but didn't garner any death threats from other parents, so I was OK with it. Once he was in school, we implemented a reward/consequence program suggested by the teacher. You know, smiley faces or green check marks earned him rewards, frowny faces or red checkmarks did not. This had no effect on him. Zero. But we doggedly persisted, at the advice of all the "experts" (pediatrician, principal, teacher, well-meaning friends and family). We tried consistency: If you do X, then your punishment is Y. If you do A, your reward is B. We didn't waiver, even when he threw himself on the floor and held his breath until he passed out. Eventually, in 3rd grade, the teachers said it was time to do an ADHD evaluation. He was diagnosed and we began our pharmaceutical adventure. Every single class of medication ever prescribed for ADHD...no effect. In 4th grade, the ODD diagnosis was added and we began Risperadal (sp?), no effect. We tried private school, thinking the smaller class size would help. Nope. In 5th grade, his grades plummeted to D's and F's rather than C's and B's. In middle school, all the behaviors just continued, but on a bigger scale and with less tolerance from the teachers. By this time I had returned to work part-time for the school district (even though I'm anti-School District. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, you know). I was quite accessible to all the teachers and administrators and I was either called or emailed daily about the disruptive behaviors (he was always polite to the teachers, just annoyed the tar out of everyone). Those discipline problems eventually escalated back into picking on other kids (nothing major). Then refusal to obey teacher requests, insubordination, etc., but through it all, he never displayed the absolute destruction, meltdown, full out rage that we would get at home. As far as his friend choices, going all the way back to early elementary, his friends were always the most pitiful things he could drag home. Absent parents, terrible home lives, etc. I always let them come to our house to play because 1. I could keep an eye on them and 2. They could have dinner with us (for some reason I felt this was very important). His friendships tended to be intense and short-lived, but always the same type of kid. That pattern continues to this day, but they are no longer allowed to my house because by 8th grade the "friends" were breaking into the house and stealing from us. It took a while for me to realize this, but eventually I did and we don't allow them on our property anymore (again, he has never had a friendship that lasted more than a few months. Generally it's a few weeks. A kid becomes his "best" friend immediately and then is discarded after a while. I never have figured out if it's him or them that is terminating the friendship, but I tend to believe it's him because there were a couple of kids who would continue to come to the house asking to hang out and he would refuse to let them in, telling me they were "bad" or "dumb" or "mean". More recently he would tell me a person is "annoying" or "stupid" and that's why he doesn't hang out with them anymore. Of course, that was back when he could still speak to me like a halfway normal person). Other things that really stick out - pathological lying (if he tells me the sky is blue, I'll go verify it just in case, been this way for a number of years); refusal to take responsibility for his actions, convinced that he is the center of the Universe; all things must work favorably toward him, but it doesn't matter how horribly he treats others; complete lack of understanding of consequences of his actions; complete and utter failure of any reward or consequence motivating him in any way; dislike for anything that requires more than minimal effort (like breathing) on his part. 3. Insanecdn - it's funny you told me not to go look up Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), but you were too late. I had seen that in several people's signatures, so I had already googled it. The really strange thing is, my kid meets so many of the "classic" symptoms. Of course, he meets a lot of "classic" symptoms of a LOT of diagnoses, I'm sure! 4. Midwest Mom - My chihuahua seems to be the only person who really understands me. AND she lets me use her fur to soak up my tears. There's no greater love than this. Since it took me most of the day to type this long dissertation, I think I'll stop here. Thanks, guys! [/QUOTE]
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