Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Internet Search
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
New Here
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 279798" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Welcome to the site. I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your wife, even though it was a few years ago the pain is never gone.</p><p></p><p>A few things stood out loud from your post. First, you have a good understanding of human nature. This is going to be vital. Second, as a military man, you are accustomed to order, to strict black-and-white following of the rules and to discipline. Unfortunately, you're going to have to back away from this, in order to win it back. I suspect your son is equally fond of order and discipline but not in the way you think. And by trying to impose your world onto his, you could be making the job much harder for both of you. But there ARE other ways...</p><p></p><p>As MWM said, ODD rarely is found in isolation. Plus you've never had him assessed, let alone diagnosed. I think that would be a really good beginning for you - organise a neuropsychologist assessment. It would pinpoint any underlying disorder, it would give you valuable practical information on his talents as well as the areas where he may need support and it would also be a 'snapshot' into his capabilities which in years to come will be a valuable resource. So even if he were a perfectly compliant and capable child, a neuropsychologist assessment done by a well-qualified professional is NEVER a waste.</p><p></p><p>As have the rest of the family, this child has been through a fair bit of upheaval and stress. The loss of his mother must have been a huge change for him. Now you have remarried and there are also two other children. Another big change. This all can take its toll and alone could be responsible for a lot of problems. However, a few things in your description sound a lot like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) to me, as in high-functioning autism or Asperger's. And this needn't be bad news at all, especially from your point of view. However, a kid with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (especially the smarter ones) will be a major handful while ever you try to control him or use strict punishment methods to make him into what you want him to be. </p><p></p><p>I grew up with strict parents who used methods similar to yours. My father had been a military man, later on the land. I was one of a large family and to manage a large family back then people used strict control and almost regimented parenting. I saw good results and swung into my own parenting with the same ideas and training. It worked - for the first couple of kids. For a while. But I ran into trouble with the last two and especially as they got older I realised that all the things I had learned about how to be a good parent, were no longer working. In fact, seemed to be making the problems worse.</p><p></p><p>I knew the problem wasn't bad parenting because I had my older two kids to display as examples of how good a parent I was. You haven't got this (I gather) and so while you are currently trying to find an explanation, your mind is still ranging into the "what can I blame?" area (this is natural, we all do it) and in the absence of his mother to discuss this with, this is the explanation your mind seems to have settled on for now.</p><p></p><p>However, I also feel that the answer is going to be far more complex than this. Sorry. Too often, parenting gets blamed when there is often so much more to it.</p><p></p><p>I won't go into too much detail - there is so much to share with you, so much help we can give you, but it needs to be in manageable doses. So here is the beginning, including summary to date:</p><p></p><p>1) I do not think this is a parenting problem. </p><p></p><p>2) I do think that regardless og whatever is going on with your son, he needs a neuropsychologist assessment. A good one. The good ones cost money and take hours, but the results are really worth it both now and for years to come. They are an investment in your child's education/upbringing/future.</p><p></p><p>3) If your son has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), chances are he also has an underlying condition, possibly Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) but also there are other possibilities. </p><p></p><p>Now the new stuff:</p><p></p><p>4) Read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It might annoy you a lot to begin with because the methods described are possibly similar to the way your late wife handled him. However, I speak from personal experience - the book helped me find a way that worked, not only for my difficult child but also for my other kids. The standard parenting methods that I had begun with just weren't working for the younger two; when I made the change I didn't have to have two different methods for the different kids, I was able to make the change for all the kids and still see it work for the PCs. "The Explosive Child" helped me understand not only what to do, but why. And the WHY was what really helped me get a grip on this because it helped me learn how to think on my feet.</p><p></p><p>5) You will find that punishment will not work, not in the long-term. It also makes you seem like a controlling, bullying ogre to the child and all he will be learning is that he has to do what you say because you are bigger and can impose your will. One day you will not be bigger. He is waiting for that day. With "normal" discipline, we count on kids understanding WHY we have these rules, before they get to the "bigger" stage. But if you have a difficult child you run the risk that he will not 'get' this by that time. There are a number of conditions where this can happen. Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is one of them. </p><p>Because punishment isn't the solution, you need to find a more workable alternative. </p><p></p><p>6) You already know from your training that you can't risk taking on a battle with him that you don't win. NEVER lose. It is better to never take on a battle at all, than to take it on and lose. I suspect his mother instinctively knew this.</p><p></p><p>7) A number of things you describe in him really stand out for me, as things which are really important to him and which you have wisely noticed but possibly not yet recognised the significance of.</p><p></p><p>* He doesn't distinguish between himself as a child and you as the adult - in his eyes all are equal. This I know well, difficult child 3 still is like this although he now understands this intellectually. However, it is the ultimate in egocentricity. Example - difficult child 3 would read a story to a 6 month old baby and expect the baby to converse with him about the book.</p><p></p><p>* Defiance - interesting. Another way of looking at defiance is, determination to do what HE feels is appropriate. In other words, he is weighing up all input from all concerned but when it comes down to it, what HE wants to do is given equal or higher priority to what YOU want him to do. Often the reason for this relates to the previous point, plus he has his own ideas of what is wrong or right, and it doesn't necessarily mesh with your own.</p><p>Example - difficult child 3 was told that a school rule was, "Don't hit other kids." The trouble was, other kids would hit him, often. But if he hit them back, he didn't know to do it out of sight of the teachers. So the outcome - difficult child 3 would get hit. He would hit back. difficult child 3 would get into trouble. The other kids would not. So in difficult child 3's mind, the school rule was modified and became "difficult child 3 will get into trouble for hitting other kids. However, difficult child 3 must expect that other kids can hit him and not get into trouble. If difficult child 3 gets hit by other kids, he has to take it." Another 'rule' difficult child 3 learned, was that first they call you names, then the hitting starts. One day (at a new school) a boy pushed difficult child 3 roughly out of the way and said, "Get out of my way, idiot."</p><p>difficult child 3 just stood there in the kid's way and said, "Well go on, hit me."</p><p>The other boy, to his credit, ran and got a teacher (because he thought difficult child 3 was trying to pick a fight). The teacher was the one who finally worked out that difficult child 3 was responding to what he had thought was a prelude to a beating, and just wanted the kid to hurry up and get the beating over with. difficult child 3 had meant, "First you call me names. So I know the next thing is, you hit me. So hurry up and get it over with."</p><p></p><p>* Talking when told not to - we have this problem as well. Again, it's social inappropriateness. People often misunderstand about autism and think it means that kids with it are socially withdrawn. Well, not necessarily. Socially inappropriate is the thing. Often this goes hand in hand with being withdrawn, but not necessarily. difficult child 3 is a very loving, outgoing child who loves being around other people. He always has, although when he was getting bullied a lot he began avoiding kids who hassled him and also learned to avoid noisy, undisciplined social situations which he knew were hard for him to understand.</p><p></p><p>* The need to control his environment - the questions also. It fits. When everything around you is hard to define, then having control as much as possible becomes your way of understanding. A kid with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) who is undiagnosed and unsupported will often try to find his own way of coping. If the kid is bright (as Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids often are) he gets to be very adept at hiding the disorder (not to be deceptive, but in his attempts to appear as normal as possible, they really want to belong). The brighter the child, the more they adapt and find ways to fit in. That's when some kids use avoidance as a coping tool.</p><p></p><p>So advice for now -</p><p></p><p>organise the neuropsychologist appointment.</p><p></p><p>read the book "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene.</p><p></p><p>keep a diary on him, observe him, record the interesting stuff as well as the odd stuff and the frustrating stuff. Also 'analyse' him, write down YOUR assessment of your son; his strengths, his weaknesses, his interests, his likes and dislikes. Anything unusual.</p><p></p><p>play fair with him. This will be VERY important. WHatever your discipline method, be consistent. Where possible, plan ahead and set up rules with his involvement also. For example if you want to write out a schedule for him for the evening, sit down with him and involve him in the choices. "What time do you think would be appropriate for lights out? Why do you feel it would be a good time? Do you think it allows you enough hours of sleep?" and so on. Work from there with things like, "How long do you think you need to bathe? Why do you feel you need that length of time? Is there any way we could make it possible for you to do it in less time? Some other way to do what you feel you need to to, without using up so much hot water?"</p><p>THis is not "giving in" to him, it is involving him which is showing him respect. IN doing this, you are teaching him how to show respect. Kids like this, who have the same rules for themselves as for others, learn best when you do to them what you want them to do to you. So the more you punish him, the more you are teaching him how to punish you. The horrifying outcome of this (and I got it in stero!) is when you hear YOUR voice coming back at you. I still have nightmares about easy child 2/difficult child 2 at 3 years of age, standing there with her hands on her hips glaring at me as I tried to hand her a cup of milk. "I told you I wanted JUICE!" she shouted. "Don't you ever listen?"</p><p></p><p>Oh, and if you try to punish this "insolence" you get exactly nowhere, because after all, you have modelled that exact behaviour for her, so of course she will use it back! She is 22, she still does it, but I handle it differently now. I have to stop and say, "Enough! Let's try this again. I was not being adverarial, why were you?"</p><p></p><p>Your ultimate aim is to raise him to be respectful, obedient, hardworking. There are a number of very different ways to do this. You always need to have your ultimate aim in mind when you try to discipline and think, "What is going to be the best way to teach this?"</p><p></p><p>There is so much more, I think that is enough for now. But a number of us have been there done that enough, to be able to help you. Also my husband is a member here ("Marg's Man"), I think you and he would find a lot of sympatico, I know he would be happy to help you also.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 279798, member: 1991"] Welcome to the site. I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your wife, even though it was a few years ago the pain is never gone. A few things stood out loud from your post. First, you have a good understanding of human nature. This is going to be vital. Second, as a military man, you are accustomed to order, to strict black-and-white following of the rules and to discipline. Unfortunately, you're going to have to back away from this, in order to win it back. I suspect your son is equally fond of order and discipline but not in the way you think. And by trying to impose your world onto his, you could be making the job much harder for both of you. But there ARE other ways... As MWM said, ODD rarely is found in isolation. Plus you've never had him assessed, let alone diagnosed. I think that would be a really good beginning for you - organise a neuropsychologist assessment. It would pinpoint any underlying disorder, it would give you valuable practical information on his talents as well as the areas where he may need support and it would also be a 'snapshot' into his capabilities which in years to come will be a valuable resource. So even if he were a perfectly compliant and capable child, a neuropsychologist assessment done by a well-qualified professional is NEVER a waste. As have the rest of the family, this child has been through a fair bit of upheaval and stress. The loss of his mother must have been a huge change for him. Now you have remarried and there are also two other children. Another big change. This all can take its toll and alone could be responsible for a lot of problems. However, a few things in your description sound a lot like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) to me, as in high-functioning autism or Asperger's. And this needn't be bad news at all, especially from your point of view. However, a kid with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (especially the smarter ones) will be a major handful while ever you try to control him or use strict punishment methods to make him into what you want him to be. I grew up with strict parents who used methods similar to yours. My father had been a military man, later on the land. I was one of a large family and to manage a large family back then people used strict control and almost regimented parenting. I saw good results and swung into my own parenting with the same ideas and training. It worked - for the first couple of kids. For a while. But I ran into trouble with the last two and especially as they got older I realised that all the things I had learned about how to be a good parent, were no longer working. In fact, seemed to be making the problems worse. I knew the problem wasn't bad parenting because I had my older two kids to display as examples of how good a parent I was. You haven't got this (I gather) and so while you are currently trying to find an explanation, your mind is still ranging into the "what can I blame?" area (this is natural, we all do it) and in the absence of his mother to discuss this with, this is the explanation your mind seems to have settled on for now. However, I also feel that the answer is going to be far more complex than this. Sorry. Too often, parenting gets blamed when there is often so much more to it. I won't go into too much detail - there is so much to share with you, so much help we can give you, but it needs to be in manageable doses. So here is the beginning, including summary to date: 1) I do not think this is a parenting problem. 2) I do think that regardless og whatever is going on with your son, he needs a neuropsychologist assessment. A good one. The good ones cost money and take hours, but the results are really worth it both now and for years to come. They are an investment in your child's education/upbringing/future. 3) If your son has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), chances are he also has an underlying condition, possibly Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) but also there are other possibilities. Now the new stuff: 4) Read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. It might annoy you a lot to begin with because the methods described are possibly similar to the way your late wife handled him. However, I speak from personal experience - the book helped me find a way that worked, not only for my difficult child but also for my other kids. The standard parenting methods that I had begun with just weren't working for the younger two; when I made the change I didn't have to have two different methods for the different kids, I was able to make the change for all the kids and still see it work for the PCs. "The Explosive Child" helped me understand not only what to do, but why. And the WHY was what really helped me get a grip on this because it helped me learn how to think on my feet. 5) You will find that punishment will not work, not in the long-term. It also makes you seem like a controlling, bullying ogre to the child and all he will be learning is that he has to do what you say because you are bigger and can impose your will. One day you will not be bigger. He is waiting for that day. With "normal" discipline, we count on kids understanding WHY we have these rules, before they get to the "bigger" stage. But if you have a difficult child you run the risk that he will not 'get' this by that time. There are a number of conditions where this can happen. Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is one of them. Because punishment isn't the solution, you need to find a more workable alternative. 6) You already know from your training that you can't risk taking on a battle with him that you don't win. NEVER lose. It is better to never take on a battle at all, than to take it on and lose. I suspect his mother instinctively knew this. 7) A number of things you describe in him really stand out for me, as things which are really important to him and which you have wisely noticed but possibly not yet recognised the significance of. * He doesn't distinguish between himself as a child and you as the adult - in his eyes all are equal. This I know well, difficult child 3 still is like this although he now understands this intellectually. However, it is the ultimate in egocentricity. Example - difficult child 3 would read a story to a 6 month old baby and expect the baby to converse with him about the book. * Defiance - interesting. Another way of looking at defiance is, determination to do what HE feels is appropriate. In other words, he is weighing up all input from all concerned but when it comes down to it, what HE wants to do is given equal or higher priority to what YOU want him to do. Often the reason for this relates to the previous point, plus he has his own ideas of what is wrong or right, and it doesn't necessarily mesh with your own. Example - difficult child 3 was told that a school rule was, "Don't hit other kids." The trouble was, other kids would hit him, often. But if he hit them back, he didn't know to do it out of sight of the teachers. So the outcome - difficult child 3 would get hit. He would hit back. difficult child 3 would get into trouble. The other kids would not. So in difficult child 3's mind, the school rule was modified and became "difficult child 3 will get into trouble for hitting other kids. However, difficult child 3 must expect that other kids can hit him and not get into trouble. If difficult child 3 gets hit by other kids, he has to take it." Another 'rule' difficult child 3 learned, was that first they call you names, then the hitting starts. One day (at a new school) a boy pushed difficult child 3 roughly out of the way and said, "Get out of my way, idiot." difficult child 3 just stood there in the kid's way and said, "Well go on, hit me." The other boy, to his credit, ran and got a teacher (because he thought difficult child 3 was trying to pick a fight). The teacher was the one who finally worked out that difficult child 3 was responding to what he had thought was a prelude to a beating, and just wanted the kid to hurry up and get the beating over with. difficult child 3 had meant, "First you call me names. So I know the next thing is, you hit me. So hurry up and get it over with." * Talking when told not to - we have this problem as well. Again, it's social inappropriateness. People often misunderstand about autism and think it means that kids with it are socially withdrawn. Well, not necessarily. Socially inappropriate is the thing. Often this goes hand in hand with being withdrawn, but not necessarily. difficult child 3 is a very loving, outgoing child who loves being around other people. He always has, although when he was getting bullied a lot he began avoiding kids who hassled him and also learned to avoid noisy, undisciplined social situations which he knew were hard for him to understand. * The need to control his environment - the questions also. It fits. When everything around you is hard to define, then having control as much as possible becomes your way of understanding. A kid with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) who is undiagnosed and unsupported will often try to find his own way of coping. If the kid is bright (as Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids often are) he gets to be very adept at hiding the disorder (not to be deceptive, but in his attempts to appear as normal as possible, they really want to belong). The brighter the child, the more they adapt and find ways to fit in. That's when some kids use avoidance as a coping tool. So advice for now - organise the neuropsychologist appointment. read the book "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. keep a diary on him, observe him, record the interesting stuff as well as the odd stuff and the frustrating stuff. Also 'analyse' him, write down YOUR assessment of your son; his strengths, his weaknesses, his interests, his likes and dislikes. Anything unusual. play fair with him. This will be VERY important. WHatever your discipline method, be consistent. Where possible, plan ahead and set up rules with his involvement also. For example if you want to write out a schedule for him for the evening, sit down with him and involve him in the choices. "What time do you think would be appropriate for lights out? Why do you feel it would be a good time? Do you think it allows you enough hours of sleep?" and so on. Work from there with things like, "How long do you think you need to bathe? Why do you feel you need that length of time? Is there any way we could make it possible for you to do it in less time? Some other way to do what you feel you need to to, without using up so much hot water?" THis is not "giving in" to him, it is involving him which is showing him respect. IN doing this, you are teaching him how to show respect. Kids like this, who have the same rules for themselves as for others, learn best when you do to them what you want them to do to you. So the more you punish him, the more you are teaching him how to punish you. The horrifying outcome of this (and I got it in stero!) is when you hear YOUR voice coming back at you. I still have nightmares about easy child 2/difficult child 2 at 3 years of age, standing there with her hands on her hips glaring at me as I tried to hand her a cup of milk. "I told you I wanted JUICE!" she shouted. "Don't you ever listen?" Oh, and if you try to punish this "insolence" you get exactly nowhere, because after all, you have modelled that exact behaviour for her, so of course she will use it back! She is 22, she still does it, but I handle it differently now. I have to stop and say, "Enough! Let's try this again. I was not being adverarial, why were you?" Your ultimate aim is to raise him to be respectful, obedient, hardworking. There are a number of very different ways to do this. You always need to have your ultimate aim in mind when you try to discipline and think, "What is going to be the best way to teach this?" There is so much more, I think that is enough for now. But a number of us have been there done that enough, to be able to help you. Also my husband is a member here ("Marg's Man"), I think you and he would find a lot of sympatico, I know he would be happy to help you also. Marg [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
New Here
Top