New Member - difficult child in Hospital
- Thread starter WasInDenial
- Start date
Marguerite
Active Member
Apologies, been there done that - when I re-read what I'd written I saw that I inadvertently implied that you had recommended punishment-based discipline. I didn't intend that - only to emphasise that it is easy, when being a strict disciplinarian, to tip over too far into punishment-based, because that is what WE did, to our cost. I cringe when I remember some of the things we tried, to teach both our sons (at different times) to comply with things we now understand were impossible for them at the time. And each time we were laying the foundations of oppositional behaviour.
Having the opportunity to work with other autistic/Aspie kids over the last two months has been so valuable for us because other parents have said to me, "If my son turns out anywhere near as well as difficult child 1 I will be very happy." After all the damage I feel I've done this was so gratifying and healing. When I think where we've come from (with both boys) and where we are heading, it gives me hope. It is so easy to feel lost and overwhelmed but what has helped me the most is getting the chance to learn from all the other Warrior Parents (and grandparents) wherever we meet them, but especially on this site.
WID, I can speak from experience of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) but not from bipolar. Just emphasising this so you can keep any comments of mine in perspective. From my point of view, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) could still explain everything. But the others are right, he does need a thorough evaluation. I hope whatever is found leads your son to productive support and management. He sounds like he's in the right place for it.
Are you and your wife getting some respite and recovery space at the moment? Counselling? You sounded like you have some regroup and recovery needs, to give you the strength you will need for when he comes home. Or in lay terms, get as much sleep as you can, while you can!
Marg
Having the opportunity to work with other autistic/Aspie kids over the last two months has been so valuable for us because other parents have said to me, "If my son turns out anywhere near as well as difficult child 1 I will be very happy." After all the damage I feel I've done this was so gratifying and healing. When I think where we've come from (with both boys) and where we are heading, it gives me hope. It is so easy to feel lost and overwhelmed but what has helped me the most is getting the chance to learn from all the other Warrior Parents (and grandparents) wherever we meet them, but especially on this site.
WID, I can speak from experience of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) but not from bipolar. Just emphasising this so you can keep any comments of mine in perspective. From my point of view, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) could still explain everything. But the others are right, he does need a thorough evaluation. I hope whatever is found leads your son to productive support and management. He sounds like he's in the right place for it.
Are you and your wife getting some respite and recovery space at the moment? Counselling? You sounded like you have some regroup and recovery needs, to give you the strength you will need for when he comes home. Or in lay terms, get as much sleep as you can, while you can!
Marg
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Hi there. It's never too late to come out of denial. Im with Sara on this. The medications he is on would make a kid with underlying bipolar MUCH worse. It can take weeks of not being on medications to see the real kid. There is a withdrawal from antidepressants that can be severe and last a long time. (Goggle SSRI withdrawal, Prozac and Zoloft are SSRIs). Aside from that I think that there are too many conflicting/confusing diagnosis. and that you should try to sort them out. I also recommend a good neuropsychologist, against psycologists without the Neuro or even a Psychiatrist (they don't tend to know much about Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)). You can't have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified and High-Functioning Autism (HFA). You have one or the other (my son has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)). Actually, they are sort of both the same thing, and they require diligent interventions (not talk therapy), however they are neurological, NOT psychiatric problems, and don't cause psychosis.
Pulling a child abruptly off medications CAN cause psychosis!!!!!! I don't care WHAT they told you. It happened to me. I had a bad reaction to an antidepressant (which can also cause psychosis) and had to go off cold turkey and and it made me psychotic for a few days. I'm NOT psychotic. Most of your son's medications have been for ADHD and antidepressants (not good for kids with angry thoughts). That would make anything like a mood disorder or, if he has any leaning towards schizophrenia, even worse. He was treated for the wrong disorder. He may be FINE once his core problem is found and treated. ODD is not useful. Every child here acts ODD, but it doesn't usually stand alone, and the ODD behavior is usually caused by the "big picture" problem. Stand alone ODD wouldn't cause psychosis either and, in my opinion, this child is too sick to respond to reward charts--he needs help and you can do that stuff later, when he's stable.
A neuropsychologist does rather intensive testing, including psycological testing, and, while there are no blood tests for any disorders, certain answers to questions and certain behaviors in situations can point to disorders more clearly. Also, look hard at his family tree on both sides. Disorders don't pop out of the air, they are inherited. If there is, say, bipolar in the family, that's a good place to look. I'd want to peel that onion and see what's really at the core, and I'm not at all sure that he isn't psychotic because of the medications. ADHD medications would NOT mask psychosis. They would likely make it worse. Find a neuropsychologist with a good reputation and give it a try. You'll find that a neuropsychologist will be more precise and less confusing. I'm sorry you are going through all this and I hope you can sort it out.
Pulling a child abruptly off medications CAN cause psychosis!!!!!! I don't care WHAT they told you. It happened to me. I had a bad reaction to an antidepressant (which can also cause psychosis) and had to go off cold turkey and and it made me psychotic for a few days. I'm NOT psychotic. Most of your son's medications have been for ADHD and antidepressants (not good for kids with angry thoughts). That would make anything like a mood disorder or, if he has any leaning towards schizophrenia, even worse. He was treated for the wrong disorder. He may be FINE once his core problem is found and treated. ODD is not useful. Every child here acts ODD, but it doesn't usually stand alone, and the ODD behavior is usually caused by the "big picture" problem. Stand alone ODD wouldn't cause psychosis either and, in my opinion, this child is too sick to respond to reward charts--he needs help and you can do that stuff later, when he's stable.
A neuropsychologist does rather intensive testing, including psycological testing, and, while there are no blood tests for any disorders, certain answers to questions and certain behaviors in situations can point to disorders more clearly. Also, look hard at his family tree on both sides. Disorders don't pop out of the air, they are inherited. If there is, say, bipolar in the family, that's a good place to look. I'd want to peel that onion and see what's really at the core, and I'm not at all sure that he isn't psychotic because of the medications. ADHD medications would NOT mask psychosis. They would likely make it worse. Find a neuropsychologist with a good reputation and give it a try. You'll find that a neuropsychologist will be more precise and less confusing. I'm sorry you are going through all this and I hope you can sort it out.
WasInDenial
New Member
A lot of people are suggesting finding root cause. We have tried multiple times. This has always been our goal, the question is how. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is not rational. No less that 4 psychiatrists, 2 Neurodevelopmental specialists, untold SW and clinicians have seen him. They've all come back with essentially the same diagnosis's. Either Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified or High-Functioning Autism (HFA).
To clarify, essentially here's a more detailed history of how we got here in a nutshell. It seems as if some people think we haven't had him seen by the right people, or enough people. Maybe he hasn't seen the right people, but I don't know how to find them.
1. difficult child doesn't do well starting in kindergarten, but later in public school 1-3 grade. No intellect issues, he's a little professor and can disacuss Quantum Physics with you now at 12 coherently. Issue is totally behavior and attention and perseverence. Won't do steps A,B,C,D to get to E. Wants to go straight to E. Public school expresses concern. Father dismisses symptoms, mother thinks there might be a problem.
2. Public school want to engage CTS. After resisting, parents(read father, mother was already for it) okay it. CTS sends difficult child for full workup, SW, Neuro, Psychologigical, Psychiatric. We can't complain about our school systems well meaning intent to help.
3. diagnosis after this is ADHD. Placement in alternative school accpeted and he's put on various stimulants as the road is travelled as indicated in signature.
4. Starts out well in new school. However starts being interested in various fantasy worlds. Father: "Whats wrong with that. I loved Lord of the Rings and Star Trek. I wasn't put on medications for it." Father resists initial desire to treat this this with anti-psychotics. But psychiatrist convinces parents he's depressed. So we go ahead and start Prozac. No material change in school work. Still will only work on stuff in school he's interested in. Avrious changes over first two years.
6. 3 - 6 months later starts becoming progressively more defiant. Refuses more nad more homework. Starts getting more and more obsesssed with fantasy worlds. Constantly challenging everyone with why can't this world be more perfect like the fantasy worlds he's interested in.
Throughout childhood Father is disciplinarian for both kids. I am the heavy. No doubt about it. Former Military and boot camp did me right. Figures strict discipline with consequences will address discipline and behavior issues like it did fo me. Father also smart enough to know that violence begets violence and I do not beat my kids and rarely spanked them as youngsters. Discipline is mainly achieved by grounding and/or removal of access to their cherished toys, access to compter, etc. difficult child becomes more belligerent and recalcitrant, loses more toys.
7. So refusing schoolwork difficult child loses more toys. Has limited effect. He says it's boring. He does the absolute minimum to get access to his toys/DS/Gameboy/Computer. psychiatrist puts him on AP Risperdal for what he says is disorganized thinking.
8. After a few months, father suggests to school (for the ninth time) that he's bored in school. Please give him harder work to interest him. If I discuss advanced topics with him he's fascinated. School says no, not until he complies with homework/behavior requirements. Father suggests just maybe thats why he's being non-compliant, because he's bored. Risperdal not working psychiatrist convinces switch to Abilify. Still on Concerta and Prozac.
9. Situation gets worse. Abilify causing tremors. School finally accedes and puts him in different (harder) class. By this time his refusal is full blown though. Too little too late. Won't do his homework, won't do anything unless I allow him access to his toys/fantasy worlds. Has tried to turn tables completely. He has always been a master manipulator. Even father (not a psychiatrist) sees clear anti-social behaviors, disorganized thinking, etc but nothing is working to get him out of this. He sliding in to this insiduously.
10. Father suggests to psychiatrist that maybe all these neuroleptics and AD and stimulants have royally screwed up his brain chemistry. Unless he has a better idea, would like to wean him off them and see what's really there. psychiatrist says ok, do it slowly, gives us schedule. We start weaning him off. By this past Christmas he's off all of them. Problem no better over holidays. Barely made it through Holiday vacation.
11. Goes back to school after break and is suspended almost immediately for behavior. difficult child can't explain why he did what would appear to anyone to be royally stupid thing. Couldn't he predict what would happen. At this point difficult child doesn't care. School won't take him back and tells CTS he needs another placement. We go through the whole Neuro/psychiatric workups for re-evaluation of new school.
12. He becomes completely unmanageable for my wife and even marginally manageable if I'm there. Escalates to an emergency last Wednesday and we take him to hospital. They admit him. Current psychiatrist asks them to evaluate him for a second opinion. We went to this hospital becuase we hoped we could get second opinion. Father comes out of denial there is a major root cause even if they don't know what it is, and more importantly that his parenting style won't work for this difficult child and educates self to change approach before he's released.
13. They put him back on AD's and AP's. This makes sense he's doing better becuase the brain got used to them there and replacing them makes him better for the short term. They were taken away, the brain chemistry went majorly awry. This restabilizes it. But it's still not clear there is an true undrlying condition, a true root cause that he needed them originally.
To clarify, essentially here's a more detailed history of how we got here in a nutshell. It seems as if some people think we haven't had him seen by the right people, or enough people. Maybe he hasn't seen the right people, but I don't know how to find them.
1. difficult child doesn't do well starting in kindergarten, but later in public school 1-3 grade. No intellect issues, he's a little professor and can disacuss Quantum Physics with you now at 12 coherently. Issue is totally behavior and attention and perseverence. Won't do steps A,B,C,D to get to E. Wants to go straight to E. Public school expresses concern. Father dismisses symptoms, mother thinks there might be a problem.
2. Public school want to engage CTS. After resisting, parents(read father, mother was already for it) okay it. CTS sends difficult child for full workup, SW, Neuro, Psychologigical, Psychiatric. We can't complain about our school systems well meaning intent to help.
3. diagnosis after this is ADHD. Placement in alternative school accpeted and he's put on various stimulants as the road is travelled as indicated in signature.
4. Starts out well in new school. However starts being interested in various fantasy worlds. Father: "Whats wrong with that. I loved Lord of the Rings and Star Trek. I wasn't put on medications for it." Father resists initial desire to treat this this with anti-psychotics. But psychiatrist convinces parents he's depressed. So we go ahead and start Prozac. No material change in school work. Still will only work on stuff in school he's interested in. Avrious changes over first two years.
6. 3 - 6 months later starts becoming progressively more defiant. Refuses more nad more homework. Starts getting more and more obsesssed with fantasy worlds. Constantly challenging everyone with why can't this world be more perfect like the fantasy worlds he's interested in.
Throughout childhood Father is disciplinarian for both kids. I am the heavy. No doubt about it. Former Military and boot camp did me right. Figures strict discipline with consequences will address discipline and behavior issues like it did fo me. Father also smart enough to know that violence begets violence and I do not beat my kids and rarely spanked them as youngsters. Discipline is mainly achieved by grounding and/or removal of access to their cherished toys, access to compter, etc. difficult child becomes more belligerent and recalcitrant, loses more toys.
7. So refusing schoolwork difficult child loses more toys. Has limited effect. He says it's boring. He does the absolute minimum to get access to his toys/DS/Gameboy/Computer. psychiatrist puts him on AP Risperdal for what he says is disorganized thinking.
8. After a few months, father suggests to school (for the ninth time) that he's bored in school. Please give him harder work to interest him. If I discuss advanced topics with him he's fascinated. School says no, not until he complies with homework/behavior requirements. Father suggests just maybe thats why he's being non-compliant, because he's bored. Risperdal not working psychiatrist convinces switch to Abilify. Still on Concerta and Prozac.
9. Situation gets worse. Abilify causing tremors. School finally accedes and puts him in different (harder) class. By this time his refusal is full blown though. Too little too late. Won't do his homework, won't do anything unless I allow him access to his toys/fantasy worlds. Has tried to turn tables completely. He has always been a master manipulator. Even father (not a psychiatrist) sees clear anti-social behaviors, disorganized thinking, etc but nothing is working to get him out of this. He sliding in to this insiduously.
10. Father suggests to psychiatrist that maybe all these neuroleptics and AD and stimulants have royally screwed up his brain chemistry. Unless he has a better idea, would like to wean him off them and see what's really there. psychiatrist says ok, do it slowly, gives us schedule. We start weaning him off. By this past Christmas he's off all of them. Problem no better over holidays. Barely made it through Holiday vacation.
11. Goes back to school after break and is suspended almost immediately for behavior. difficult child can't explain why he did what would appear to anyone to be royally stupid thing. Couldn't he predict what would happen. At this point difficult child doesn't care. School won't take him back and tells CTS he needs another placement. We go through the whole Neuro/psychiatric workups for re-evaluation of new school.
12. He becomes completely unmanageable for my wife and even marginally manageable if I'm there. Escalates to an emergency last Wednesday and we take him to hospital. They admit him. Current psychiatrist asks them to evaluate him for a second opinion. We went to this hospital becuase we hoped we could get second opinion. Father comes out of denial there is a major root cause even if they don't know what it is, and more importantly that his parenting style won't work for this difficult child and educates self to change approach before he's released.
13. They put him back on AD's and AP's. This makes sense he's doing better becuase the brain got used to them there and replacing them makes him better for the short term. They were taken away, the brain chemistry went majorly awry. This restabilizes it. But it's still not clear there is an true undrlying condition, a true root cause that he needed them originally.
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
WID....we are parents, your doctors are educated people. Not to say they always know what is best but they have a better shot than the average bear. You have had many eyes looking at your son. That is a good thing. They all come back saying the same thing. Maybe now its time to worry less about the letters and worry more about the treatment. Work with the professionals to make your son functional. That is your goal.
I always said if I had to drink horse pee and dunk him in oil 3 times a day, if it made him functional I would do it. Thankfully that wasnt needed...lol.
I always said if I had to drink horse pee and dunk him in oil 3 times a day, if it made him functional I would do it. Thankfully that wasnt needed...lol.
Okay I am going out on a limb here~
I don't have the knowledge or experiences with the different medications you are refering to.
I do know in my experience with adhd and odd, the medications either made my son a zombie or he said made him feel strange. We tried several, adderal,strattera,zoloft,paxil,i am sure I am leaving some out.
We stopped all medications. He did complete his GED without medications, something he had tried to do with medications. The difference being he was in jail when his ged was completed.
So that really makes you wonder how much outside stimuli has to do with his actions and thought process.
In my own depression about my difficult child. I saw a therapist that told me I was on the verge of hospitalization. I know my reaction to this statement would be considerably different than a teen, but it made me question my whole being.
I was put on antidepressants and had many sucidal thoughts. It scared me. I then talked with therapist who changed my medications, within two weeks I was much worse and could not make myself get out of the bed. Nothing mattered. I took myself off medications completely and have been okay since.
I think the medications got me to the point I neede to be to get "over" the hill, yet I think if I had continued to take them I would not be here now.
I know everyone has different opinions of medications, and I am just sharing my thoughts.
Yet, I still wonder if the medications screwed up my difficult child when he was forced to take them?
He always told me he felt funny when he took them, and I always trusted the docs and administered them.
After my episode with medications I listened to him and we stopped the medications.
Not saying that was the right thing to do, because he is currently using drugs and coping with like as a difficult child
I don't have the knowledge or experiences with the different medications you are refering to.
I do know in my experience with adhd and odd, the medications either made my son a zombie or he said made him feel strange. We tried several, adderal,strattera,zoloft,paxil,i am sure I am leaving some out.
We stopped all medications. He did complete his GED without medications, something he had tried to do with medications. The difference being he was in jail when his ged was completed.
So that really makes you wonder how much outside stimuli has to do with his actions and thought process.
In my own depression about my difficult child. I saw a therapist that told me I was on the verge of hospitalization. I know my reaction to this statement would be considerably different than a teen, but it made me question my whole being.
I was put on antidepressants and had many sucidal thoughts. It scared me. I then talked with therapist who changed my medications, within two weeks I was much worse and could not make myself get out of the bed. Nothing mattered. I took myself off medications completely and have been okay since.
I think the medications got me to the point I neede to be to get "over" the hill, yet I think if I had continued to take them I would not be here now.
I know everyone has different opinions of medications, and I am just sharing my thoughts.
Yet, I still wonder if the medications screwed up my difficult child when he was forced to take them?
He always told me he felt funny when he took them, and I always trusted the docs and administered them.
After my episode with medications I listened to him and we stopped the medications.
Not saying that was the right thing to do, because he is currently using drugs and coping with like as a difficult child
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
WID
In your last post your son sounds alot like my T who is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Actually, if we put the two of them in the same room they'd probably never bother to talk to us again. lol T has the same obsession with Star Trek ect.
I only posted a short welcme before because I wanted to give some thought to what I say.
My difficult child T is the reason I found this board. It was right around your son's age, too. I was desperate for answers. And T was suddenly out of control. His behaviors went from unusual to totally off the wall. Frankly my visions of T for the future at that time were terrifying. I thought my son had just taken the wild plunge over the deep end. Although T had seen an army of specialists over the years, at 13 he had no dxes except a vision problem.
I kept looking and eventually found a wonderful neuro at a children's hospital. We dropped T's psychiatrist. Neuro specialized in autistic spectrum and tourettes. This doctor had answers to my questions. I learned that there are just some things that T was unable to do, and no matter what I tried to get him to do it, he will still be unable. There were other things that needed the approach changed. MY approach, not T's. Like the simple task of cleaning his room. T can't do it unless given short direction about every 10-15 mins. If I leave him alone to do it, he'll pick something up and get destracted and completely forget about the cleaning. Tasks had to be broken down into much smaller steps. Homework we eventually tossed out the window and let be the school's issue with T.
T is 20 yrs old now. When I look back at how he was at your son's age I wonder how I ever got us thru it. Most of his issues back then were exacerbated by puberty hormones surging thru his body. Some of it was seizure related. Some of it we never did figure out what it was.
T still has his Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) issues. He always will. But as an "adult" he is not as bad as he was when younger. Somewhere along the way I learned that I couldn't fix T. He is who he is, and most of the time that is a pretty great kid. He still lives in his fantasy world. But he can also function pretty well in this world too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that from what you described in your last post, alot of your difficult child's behaviors sound PDDish more than anything else. in my opinion If I were to rock T's "world" too much he'd become awfully defiant too. If I pushed too hard he tended to fall apart. This wasn't an easy thing for me to learn as a strict parent. I can be stubborn too. lol I had to refocus on making T functional as a child/adult. I eventually learned T was never going to be *normal*. (that was devistating)
Parenting a difficult child is a learning process. I'm still learning. The other parents here are still learning. Heck the professionals are still learning.
((((hugs))))
In your last post your son sounds alot like my T who is Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Actually, if we put the two of them in the same room they'd probably never bother to talk to us again. lol T has the same obsession with Star Trek ect.
I only posted a short welcme before because I wanted to give some thought to what I say.
My difficult child T is the reason I found this board. It was right around your son's age, too. I was desperate for answers. And T was suddenly out of control. His behaviors went from unusual to totally off the wall. Frankly my visions of T for the future at that time were terrifying. I thought my son had just taken the wild plunge over the deep end. Although T had seen an army of specialists over the years, at 13 he had no dxes except a vision problem.
I kept looking and eventually found a wonderful neuro at a children's hospital. We dropped T's psychiatrist. Neuro specialized in autistic spectrum and tourettes. This doctor had answers to my questions. I learned that there are just some things that T was unable to do, and no matter what I tried to get him to do it, he will still be unable. There were other things that needed the approach changed. MY approach, not T's. Like the simple task of cleaning his room. T can't do it unless given short direction about every 10-15 mins. If I leave him alone to do it, he'll pick something up and get destracted and completely forget about the cleaning. Tasks had to be broken down into much smaller steps. Homework we eventually tossed out the window and let be the school's issue with T.
T is 20 yrs old now. When I look back at how he was at your son's age I wonder how I ever got us thru it. Most of his issues back then were exacerbated by puberty hormones surging thru his body. Some of it was seizure related. Some of it we never did figure out what it was.
T still has his Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) issues. He always will. But as an "adult" he is not as bad as he was when younger. Somewhere along the way I learned that I couldn't fix T. He is who he is, and most of the time that is a pretty great kid. He still lives in his fantasy world. But he can also function pretty well in this world too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that from what you described in your last post, alot of your difficult child's behaviors sound PDDish more than anything else. in my opinion If I were to rock T's "world" too much he'd become awfully defiant too. If I pushed too hard he tended to fall apart. This wasn't an easy thing for me to learn as a strict parent. I can be stubborn too. lol I had to refocus on making T functional as a child/adult. I eventually learned T was never going to be *normal*. (that was devistating)
Parenting a difficult child is a learning process. I'm still learning. The other parents here are still learning. Heck the professionals are still learning.
((((hugs))))
Dear WID,
Here's the thing. You have two challenges. Your son's medical condition - the doctors are handling it. And his emotional condition. You can do very little about those two things beyond what the doctors are doing, until he is stabilized. It's very difficult to do any kind of definitive diagnosis when your son is in this state.
But you also have a third, you and your family's emotional response to this. That's what my letter addresses. Until that's taken care of, you won't be a lot of help to your son. That is why I suggest you take it easy on yourself and not get exhausted going to the ends of the earth to try to figure it out on your own.
in my humble opinion, that takes too long, and if history repeats itself, you've been trying that for a while and it hasn't worked. Meanwhile your child is getting older. That sounds to me like the real deal. in my humble opinion.
The point is, the core, underlying issue is exactly what I said. With ODD, it ALWAYS is. And it's a lot. Never underestimate the power of emotional response, especially in a 12-year-old boy. Perhaps I wasn't clear, and therefore the confusion, but I'm suggesting that you focus now on finding a good therapist rather than mowing through every every book and website you can get your hands on. At this stage of the game, you don't have time to hope a book will do it.
In my opinion, exhausting yourself and the doctors' trying to name this is the equivalent of driving a car (with four flat tires), all over town trying to find someone that can tell you the name brand of your engine.
Fix the tires first. That's something you CAN fix. Later, you may decide that it doesn't really matter if you know the name of the engine or not. So maybe that's a lame example. But I like it.
Step back from the alphabet of all this, and fulfill your part in the advocate-dad-partnering-with-the-medical-team-and-therapist role to help your son get well. But the emotional thing between your son, and the family, and any other important adults in his life, that deserves your most important time.
Parents that never figure that out, often lose their difficult children, to peers, to drugs, to prison sometimes. At 12, you don't have one minute to waste. That is why I made the recommendation I did. And I strongly believe a skilled play therapist is the ticket.
Let me tell you why, because if your son has ADHD, talking bores him silly. Play therapy engages him and grabs his attention. He won't even know he had therapy. He'll think he was playing a game. And meanwhile he'll be healing emotionally. That's the idea, and man oh man does it ever work, IF you find the right therapist. And no, I'm not one. I've just seen the jaw-dropping magic of it.
I'm not here to try to convert you to anything or prove anything to anyone. It's just that your letter touched my heart, so this is my offering - this realistic approach. (Guess you surmised that takes guts. :smile: )
It's heartwarming to see a concerned dad stepping up to the plate. That's what our kids need a lot more of. I would not try to coax your darling wife to come here. She's suffering and she doesn't need any coaxing. You are all in crisis, confronting some hard facts that hurt, a lot. Godspeed finding your way through all this muck back to good parts of being a loving family.
Happy Sunday dear WID. Remember that part about the visits. It's the magic key to unlocking this. And suggest your wife try it too. You'll be astonished.
I say these things only after having...
been there done that
Here's the thing. You have two challenges. Your son's medical condition - the doctors are handling it. And his emotional condition. You can do very little about those two things beyond what the doctors are doing, until he is stabilized. It's very difficult to do any kind of definitive diagnosis when your son is in this state.
But you also have a third, you and your family's emotional response to this. That's what my letter addresses. Until that's taken care of, you won't be a lot of help to your son. That is why I suggest you take it easy on yourself and not get exhausted going to the ends of the earth to try to figure it out on your own.
in my humble opinion, that takes too long, and if history repeats itself, you've been trying that for a while and it hasn't worked. Meanwhile your child is getting older. That sounds to me like the real deal. in my humble opinion.
The point is, the core, underlying issue is exactly what I said. With ODD, it ALWAYS is. And it's a lot. Never underestimate the power of emotional response, especially in a 12-year-old boy. Perhaps I wasn't clear, and therefore the confusion, but I'm suggesting that you focus now on finding a good therapist rather than mowing through every every book and website you can get your hands on. At this stage of the game, you don't have time to hope a book will do it.
In my opinion, exhausting yourself and the doctors' trying to name this is the equivalent of driving a car (with four flat tires), all over town trying to find someone that can tell you the name brand of your engine.
Fix the tires first. That's something you CAN fix. Later, you may decide that it doesn't really matter if you know the name of the engine or not. So maybe that's a lame example. But I like it.
Step back from the alphabet of all this, and fulfill your part in the advocate-dad-partnering-with-the-medical-team-and-therapist role to help your son get well. But the emotional thing between your son, and the family, and any other important adults in his life, that deserves your most important time.
Parents that never figure that out, often lose their difficult children, to peers, to drugs, to prison sometimes. At 12, you don't have one minute to waste. That is why I made the recommendation I did. And I strongly believe a skilled play therapist is the ticket.
Let me tell you why, because if your son has ADHD, talking bores him silly. Play therapy engages him and grabs his attention. He won't even know he had therapy. He'll think he was playing a game. And meanwhile he'll be healing emotionally. That's the idea, and man oh man does it ever work, IF you find the right therapist. And no, I'm not one. I've just seen the jaw-dropping magic of it.
I'm not here to try to convert you to anything or prove anything to anyone. It's just that your letter touched my heart, so this is my offering - this realistic approach. (Guess you surmised that takes guts. :smile: )
It's heartwarming to see a concerned dad stepping up to the plate. That's what our kids need a lot more of. I would not try to coax your darling wife to come here. She's suffering and she doesn't need any coaxing. You are all in crisis, confronting some hard facts that hurt, a lot. Godspeed finding your way through all this muck back to good parts of being a loving family.
Happy Sunday dear WID. Remember that part about the visits. It's the magic key to unlocking this. And suggest your wife try it too. You'll be astonished.
I say these things only after having...
been there done that
I had a long talk one day with my son's gifted program teacher. She and her husband had been teaching gifted students for over 25 years when we had the conversation. Your son's behavior -- like my son's -- was not unlike many highly intelligent students she taught over the years. Not all are like that, but she is never surprised when highly intelligent boys, particularly, are high energy and only want to do what they want to do. She did not see that behavior as pathological but, intead, normal and to be expected.
The deteriorating behavior noticable starting at three months after beginning an antidepressant is a common timetable for the switch from wonderful hypomania to what can eventually be psychotic behavior. Appropriate treatment is discontinuation of the antidepressant, not the addition of any other medication.
The deteriorating behavior noticable starting at three months after beginning an antidepressant is a common timetable for the switch from wonderful hypomania to what can eventually be psychotic behavior. Appropriate treatment is discontinuation of the antidepressant, not the addition of any other medication.
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
been there done that...
I dont want to disagree with you but often times ODD behaviors will calm down or disappear when treatment for an underlying problem are worked on. Also...therapy often doesnt work until a child is fairly stable. We have seen that time and again on this board.
I find your percentages of the numbers of kids with ADHD who have comorbid ODD a bit high. I also find it highly interesting that you link this back to parenting. I have a child, well adult child now, who had ADHD combine type, who didnt have the ODD component. With my background if parenting could cause ODD, he would have had it.
I dont want to disagree with you but often times ODD behaviors will calm down or disappear when treatment for an underlying problem are worked on. Also...therapy often doesnt work until a child is fairly stable. We have seen that time and again on this board.
I find your percentages of the numbers of kids with ADHD who have comorbid ODD a bit high. I also find it highly interesting that you link this back to parenting. I have a child, well adult child now, who had ADHD combine type, who didnt have the ODD component. With my background if parenting could cause ODD, he would have had it.
busywend
Well-Known Member
been there done that, the way your post is worded 'I' read it that you are blaming parents for the way their children behave - even if they have a diagnosis that typically has behavior issues as one of the problems.
I do not think you can say ALWAYS to anything on this board. I have been here long enough to know that no two children are the same. Even children brought up in the same house.
What I think you may mean to educate people on is this: traditional parenting most likely will not help your difficult child. I believe this. I do not know it to be a fact. Some difficult children may benefit from traditional parenting.
To me this was the hardest part. Changing the way I believed was best to parent my child. Stepping out of my comfort zone to parent in a way that seemed counterproductive - and would be with most children.
What do I do? Well, I certainly had to have unbelievable amounts of patience and calmness. I already had people telling me that I was way more patient than they were, yet I had to increase my patience and tolerance. I had to learn to react slower and with much more thought than doing what came to mind first. Slowly, I started to see difficult child react differently to my not reacting immediately. Having some success encouraged the behavior I was trying to change in myself.
I certainly do not mean to offend anyone by this post. I just think all members need to realize that every child is different and what you did that worked for your child may not work for mine. The value in hearing both your story and mine is that other members get options. The option they choose may not work, so there is another one.
But, I do not believe you can say that ODD is ALWAYS due to a parenting issue. And the way I read it, that is what you implied.
I do not think you can say ALWAYS to anything on this board. I have been here long enough to know that no two children are the same. Even children brought up in the same house.
What I think you may mean to educate people on is this: traditional parenting most likely will not help your difficult child. I believe this. I do not know it to be a fact. Some difficult children may benefit from traditional parenting.
To me this was the hardest part. Changing the way I believed was best to parent my child. Stepping out of my comfort zone to parent in a way that seemed counterproductive - and would be with most children.
What do I do? Well, I certainly had to have unbelievable amounts of patience and calmness. I already had people telling me that I was way more patient than they were, yet I had to increase my patience and tolerance. I had to learn to react slower and with much more thought than doing what came to mind first. Slowly, I started to see difficult child react differently to my not reacting immediately. Having some success encouraged the behavior I was trying to change in myself.
I certainly do not mean to offend anyone by this post. I just think all members need to realize that every child is different and what you did that worked for your child may not work for mine. The value in hearing both your story and mine is that other members get options. The option they choose may not work, so there is another one.
But, I do not believe you can say that ODD is ALWAYS due to a parenting issue. And the way I read it, that is what you implied.
This is my final post on this. Because this is exactly what I said:
"Problem is...honesty here...ODD is a reaction to adults and adult rule. Because your child has ADHD, adults in his life have been innocently making the same mistakes all adults make when dealing with difficult ADHD behaviors - mistakes that cause him to distrust adults. What your child perceives as a "mistake worthy of his distrust" does not register as a mistake to his loving parents, who most often parent as their parents did. Don't blames yourself because your child's slant on this defies common sense... until you truly understand ADHD.
There is no cure for ODD. One can only minimize it. (Did you know that 57-64% of all children with ADHD develop ODD? Only the children with the hyperactive or combined types get it, not the inattentive types. Although one can get ODD without having ADHD.) It can be prevented. Medication only eases it a bit. Because the real problem is your child's opposition to adult rule. ODD is the MOST misunderstood of all childhood disorders."
And now you see why it's also one of the most volatile topics...
Point is, I said adult rule - and never said it was because of parenting at all. Only that to parents, it doesn't make sense. It could be because of a teacher, or a boy scout leader, but ODD is always the child's defense mechanism against adults, underline always underline underline. It is a behavioral problem.
It's a disservice to WID to bicker, and therefore I'll bow out courteously.
Because I have already...
been there done that
"Problem is...honesty here...ODD is a reaction to adults and adult rule. Because your child has ADHD, adults in his life have been innocently making the same mistakes all adults make when dealing with difficult ADHD behaviors - mistakes that cause him to distrust adults. What your child perceives as a "mistake worthy of his distrust" does not register as a mistake to his loving parents, who most often parent as their parents did. Don't blames yourself because your child's slant on this defies common sense... until you truly understand ADHD.
There is no cure for ODD. One can only minimize it. (Did you know that 57-64% of all children with ADHD develop ODD? Only the children with the hyperactive or combined types get it, not the inattentive types. Although one can get ODD without having ADHD.) It can be prevented. Medication only eases it a bit. Because the real problem is your child's opposition to adult rule. ODD is the MOST misunderstood of all childhood disorders."
And now you see why it's also one of the most volatile topics...
Point is, I said adult rule - and never said it was because of parenting at all. Only that to parents, it doesn't make sense. It could be because of a teacher, or a boy scout leader, but ODD is always the child's defense mechanism against adults, underline always underline underline. It is a behavioral problem.
It's a disservice to WID to bicker, and therefore I'll bow out courteously.
Because I have already...
been there done that
WasInDenial
New Member
I understand the sensitive nature of whether it's the parents fault or whether there's a medical/psychiatric cause and the heated debates. The bickering doesn't bother me, but I don't want to see it get the people who are trying to share their experiences hot under the collar. My problems should not be starting a discussion that causes y'all stress. 
People have had very personal experiences that have engendered strong opinions one way or another.
I appreciate all of the posters viewpoints and thoughts. Thank you all again.
People have had very personal experiences that have engendered strong opinions one way or another. I appreciate all of the posters viewpoints and thoughts. Thank you all again.
dreamer
New Member
I got lost along the way......
but seems to me I have seen ODD be sometimes not related to a childs behaviors at all but rather an adults mindset?
(does anyone understand what I mean?)
Um um......my son has partial seizures, his teacher insisted it was defiance when he would daydream or not respond.
My dtr had extreme major panic with full blown fight or flight. Her teacher called it defiance when she would not just sit down and shut up. Both school psychologists then tried to put an ODD label on my kids.
It had nothing to do with parenting, and it had nothing to do with rules,
and it had nothing to do with my kids opposing any rules. And for my son it had nothing to do with a psychological issue.
But in the teachers and school psychologists minds, my kids were being defiant. and my dtr was expelled from 7th grade for "insubordination"
(The ODD labels was ultimately removed from my dtrs school records in due process hearing)
ps, it was not a defense mechanism, either. especially not in my son.
but seems to me I have seen ODD be sometimes not related to a childs behaviors at all but rather an adults mindset?
(does anyone understand what I mean?)
Um um......my son has partial seizures, his teacher insisted it was defiance when he would daydream or not respond.
My dtr had extreme major panic with full blown fight or flight. Her teacher called it defiance when she would not just sit down and shut up. Both school psychologists then tried to put an ODD label on my kids.
It had nothing to do with parenting, and it had nothing to do with rules,
and it had nothing to do with my kids opposing any rules. And for my son it had nothing to do with a psychological issue.
But in the teachers and school psychologists minds, my kids were being defiant. and my dtr was expelled from 7th grade for "insubordination"
(The ODD labels was ultimately removed from my dtrs school records in due process hearing)
ps, it was not a defense mechanism, either. especially not in my son.
WasInDenial
New Member
An interesting point dreamer. If I understand you correctly, you making the observation of the subjectivity of the labels. That's what I felt in the early days, that people were labelling my son subjectively and that the range for "normal" was too narrow.
For me personally, as time has gone by, I can clearly see developmental deficits that I can't account for by subjective viewpoints. He clearly has difficulty relating to peers and "reading" the sub-verbal interaction and facial cues of others. It's as if he can't pick up the same radio station everyone else can, and therefore isn't up on the latest songs. He clearly has difficulty switching tasks and focusing on one task to completion, and he clearly has difficulty doing the foundational work. Intellectually it's a cakewalk for him, patience wise though it's insurmountable.
At this point I think the diagnosis of High-Functioning Autism (HFA) is accurate, but that the ODD is a byproduct of his frustration with his ability to meet everyones expectations combined with an overly strict and not compassionate enough parenting style of mine and some drug induced problems to ice the cake.
I've accepted the underlying deficits and will be changing my ways to help him with those. My concern now is the medications and the real reason behind why he needs them, as opposed to apparent "I see Y, lets give him X" approach. I will never take him off the medications without alot of help and observation though. No child should ever have to be going through what he is.
For me personally, as time has gone by, I can clearly see developmental deficits that I can't account for by subjective viewpoints. He clearly has difficulty relating to peers and "reading" the sub-verbal interaction and facial cues of others. It's as if he can't pick up the same radio station everyone else can, and therefore isn't up on the latest songs. He clearly has difficulty switching tasks and focusing on one task to completion, and he clearly has difficulty doing the foundational work. Intellectually it's a cakewalk for him, patience wise though it's insurmountable.
At this point I think the diagnosis of High-Functioning Autism (HFA) is accurate, but that the ODD is a byproduct of his frustration with his ability to meet everyones expectations combined with an overly strict and not compassionate enough parenting style of mine and some drug induced problems to ice the cake.
I've accepted the underlying deficits and will be changing my ways to help him with those. My concern now is the medications and the real reason behind why he needs them, as opposed to apparent "I see Y, lets give him X" approach. I will never take him off the medications without alot of help and observation though. No child should ever have to be going through what he is.
Marguerite
Active Member
been there done that, you have mentioned play therapy several times - I haven't heard of it. Could you give us more information? Of course, it could be that in Australia we know it under a different name. My daughter is an Occupational Therapist, she welcomes any new ideas and information. My son is a lot like WID's, so anything you think could help his son could also help mine, and other kids I know.
Many of us on this site have also been there done that, but in different ways. I've unlearned a lot of misconceptions and had others confirmed. What I've appreciated about this mob - it has given me more confidence and as a result, we have changed our lives - especially difficult child 3's life.
WID, you said, "At this point I think the diagnosis of High-Functioning Autism (HFA) is accurate, but that the ODD is a byproduct of his frustration with his ability to meet everyones expectations combined with an overly strict and not compassionate enough parenting style of mine and some drug induced problems to ice the cake."
Don't just blame yourself for the ODD symptoms. There have been a lot of possibilities in line including how he was handled at the school. Besides, blame isn't going to sort out anything now. All blame does is slow down your thinking and actions at THIS end of the deal, when you need it the most. I do agree with you that the ODD is a by-product but not so much of his frustration, necessarily, as simply (if the High-Functioning Autism (HFA) label is right) that he has certain needs that often get blocked or prevented and THAT leads to frustration, and opposition to whatever/whoever is blocking his access.
I also think ODD is a label that gets handed out to a range of problems, many of them caused by environmental factors overlying a sometimes undiagnosed and generally misunderstood disorder. There can be dangers in a blanket diagnosis.
I'll have to give you examples from difficult child 3 (I know him!). Right now, it's 9.15 am. He had promised me he would begin some schoolwork today at 9 am. I COULD insist. However, today (first day back of school year) is a teachers only day. I had only come to agreement with him about beginning work at 9 am because later in the week he'll have to miss some schooling time because we have a paed appointment.
But there were other parts of the deal - if he worked well this morning, I promised to take him to the beach (a short walk away) at lunchtime.
Other things I need to consider - difficult child 3 has a lot of trouble dealing with conflict in narrative. it upsets him. But right now he's watching a new movie (birthday present). He's halfway through it. If I interrupt him he won't go back to it easily and I want him to finish watching it in one go. So I'm letting him finish. If this means we don't get to the beach, I know he will accept this (now - he wouldn't have a year ago). It could also mean that when we go out on Wednesday for his paed appointment, he will have to bring schoolwork and do it.
difficult child 3 also plays A LOT of Nintendo DS. difficult child 1 plays a lot of computer games too. I've found that for both of them, this is a coping strategy. At various times they have voluntarily laid down their games to do schoolwork. It wasn't easy for them. And I observed that while they were not playing their games in their leisure time, their coping skills went out the window.
We've developed a list of activities that calm difficult child 3 when he's stressed. Interestingly, one of the items on the list is giving him maths work to do. Another is music. So we let him listen to music while he does his schoolwork.
The aim for us - to get him to do his work without trauma. If I dragged him away from his movie now, it would take me an hour or more to overcome his rage with me at what he would perceive as interference and injustice. he certainly wouldn't settle to work any time soon. And we would still miss out on the trip to the beach.
But he now knows I have given him some slack. When the movie is finished he will be reminded, "Do some schoolwork so we can go to the beach at lunchtime, or as soon as you finish a set." He will be more relaxed, more motivated, more cooperative. And because we've done it in the past, he knows that if he's worked well up until Wednesday then I will treat him to some shopping time, if he's up to date with his work. It's a privilege he will actively work for now.
The trick has been to hand choice back to him. It sounds paradoxic, but it has worked. You begin with giving him choice in things which matter far more to him than to the authority figure (for example, some leeway in choice of clothing where possible). I also make sure I allow for stims. If he can't help tapping his pencil on the table, I move him to where the sound doesn't bother anyone. if the sound is going to bother people, then I wrap the pencil tip in tape or foam. And do it again when he chews it off absent-mindedly.
It's now 9.30 am. I can hear the movie coming close to a finish. He's lost half an hour. If I had forced him off the movie, we'd still be fighting. I'd be upset, he'd be upset and no work would be getting done. Now I know he will work well. it's Day 1, so HE can choose which subject to do (although I will try to guide him towards one I can support him with, like PE/PD which he hates). I also have my own work to do, so once he's working well on his own I'm free to make my calls, take my notes and make appointments.
difficult child 3 & I cooperate. He is now 13 (I need to change the sig!). When he was 6 his class teacher (experienced with High-Functioning Autism (HFA) - she has one herself) first suggested ODD as well. I can see why. But we've found ways to minimise it and retrain him (and us). He's even calmed to the point that where Grandma tries to put her foot down and exert "Because I said so, that's why!" (red rag to a bull, in the past) he sits there silently and doesn't react. In the past he would scream at anyone saying that to him.
A great deal depends on the individual child. Learning what triggers them and what calms them is a huge breakthrough. Being able to help them work it out for themselves is the next huge breakthrough. We got to the first breakthrough in a week. it took a year to get to the next (and he's still learning). We've also been able to cut his medications a bit, because his anxiety is now much more in control.
I remember trying to get difficult child 3 to be quiet in church. Every week during prayer time, I would haul him off to a back room and threaten him to keep him quiet. But he simply couldn't not talk - most of it was jargon or echolalia. At the time I labelled this as oppositional. It wasn't - it was simply out of his control.
He was a child, the others in church objecting to the noise were adults. Eventually I realised that the supposedly more capable and mature adults would have to make the adjustment, at least for now. We don't punish babies for babbling loudly in church. At some point we have to realise that punishing someone for something they have as little control over (or a need for) is similarly unjust and counter-productive.
Another example - if I punished my child every time they had a drink of something liquid, they would try to comply maybe, but would eventually be forced by thirst to sneak drinks when I wasn't looking. There is a physiological need for fluids, or we die. Yet we punish our High-Functioning Autism (HFA)/Aspie kids for behaviours that to them are as necessary as a glass of water. From my observation and extensive reading, SOMETHING is produced, indistinguishable from ODD, when you repeatedly try to discipline a child out of something that they simply cannot help. There are other factors as well, but schools, which require a high level of group participation and regimentation, are potentially major contributors to this problem also.
SO, WID, don't blame yourself. Move on and learn from it. Be where you are now.
Marg
Many of us on this site have also been there done that, but in different ways. I've unlearned a lot of misconceptions and had others confirmed. What I've appreciated about this mob - it has given me more confidence and as a result, we have changed our lives - especially difficult child 3's life.
WID, you said, "At this point I think the diagnosis of High-Functioning Autism (HFA) is accurate, but that the ODD is a byproduct of his frustration with his ability to meet everyones expectations combined with an overly strict and not compassionate enough parenting style of mine and some drug induced problems to ice the cake."
Don't just blame yourself for the ODD symptoms. There have been a lot of possibilities in line including how he was handled at the school. Besides, blame isn't going to sort out anything now. All blame does is slow down your thinking and actions at THIS end of the deal, when you need it the most. I do agree with you that the ODD is a by-product but not so much of his frustration, necessarily, as simply (if the High-Functioning Autism (HFA) label is right) that he has certain needs that often get blocked or prevented and THAT leads to frustration, and opposition to whatever/whoever is blocking his access.
I also think ODD is a label that gets handed out to a range of problems, many of them caused by environmental factors overlying a sometimes undiagnosed and generally misunderstood disorder. There can be dangers in a blanket diagnosis.
I'll have to give you examples from difficult child 3 (I know him!). Right now, it's 9.15 am. He had promised me he would begin some schoolwork today at 9 am. I COULD insist. However, today (first day back of school year) is a teachers only day. I had only come to agreement with him about beginning work at 9 am because later in the week he'll have to miss some schooling time because we have a paed appointment.
But there were other parts of the deal - if he worked well this morning, I promised to take him to the beach (a short walk away) at lunchtime.
Other things I need to consider - difficult child 3 has a lot of trouble dealing with conflict in narrative. it upsets him. But right now he's watching a new movie (birthday present). He's halfway through it. If I interrupt him he won't go back to it easily and I want him to finish watching it in one go. So I'm letting him finish. If this means we don't get to the beach, I know he will accept this (now - he wouldn't have a year ago). It could also mean that when we go out on Wednesday for his paed appointment, he will have to bring schoolwork and do it.
difficult child 3 also plays A LOT of Nintendo DS. difficult child 1 plays a lot of computer games too. I've found that for both of them, this is a coping strategy. At various times they have voluntarily laid down their games to do schoolwork. It wasn't easy for them. And I observed that while they were not playing their games in their leisure time, their coping skills went out the window.
We've developed a list of activities that calm difficult child 3 when he's stressed. Interestingly, one of the items on the list is giving him maths work to do. Another is music. So we let him listen to music while he does his schoolwork.
The aim for us - to get him to do his work without trauma. If I dragged him away from his movie now, it would take me an hour or more to overcome his rage with me at what he would perceive as interference and injustice. he certainly wouldn't settle to work any time soon. And we would still miss out on the trip to the beach.
But he now knows I have given him some slack. When the movie is finished he will be reminded, "Do some schoolwork so we can go to the beach at lunchtime, or as soon as you finish a set." He will be more relaxed, more motivated, more cooperative. And because we've done it in the past, he knows that if he's worked well up until Wednesday then I will treat him to some shopping time, if he's up to date with his work. It's a privilege he will actively work for now.
The trick has been to hand choice back to him. It sounds paradoxic, but it has worked. You begin with giving him choice in things which matter far more to him than to the authority figure (for example, some leeway in choice of clothing where possible). I also make sure I allow for stims. If he can't help tapping his pencil on the table, I move him to where the sound doesn't bother anyone. if the sound is going to bother people, then I wrap the pencil tip in tape or foam. And do it again when he chews it off absent-mindedly.
It's now 9.30 am. I can hear the movie coming close to a finish. He's lost half an hour. If I had forced him off the movie, we'd still be fighting. I'd be upset, he'd be upset and no work would be getting done. Now I know he will work well. it's Day 1, so HE can choose which subject to do (although I will try to guide him towards one I can support him with, like PE/PD which he hates). I also have my own work to do, so once he's working well on his own I'm free to make my calls, take my notes and make appointments.
difficult child 3 & I cooperate. He is now 13 (I need to change the sig!). When he was 6 his class teacher (experienced with High-Functioning Autism (HFA) - she has one herself) first suggested ODD as well. I can see why. But we've found ways to minimise it and retrain him (and us). He's even calmed to the point that where Grandma tries to put her foot down and exert "Because I said so, that's why!" (red rag to a bull, in the past) he sits there silently and doesn't react. In the past he would scream at anyone saying that to him.
A great deal depends on the individual child. Learning what triggers them and what calms them is a huge breakthrough. Being able to help them work it out for themselves is the next huge breakthrough. We got to the first breakthrough in a week. it took a year to get to the next (and he's still learning). We've also been able to cut his medications a bit, because his anxiety is now much more in control.
I remember trying to get difficult child 3 to be quiet in church. Every week during prayer time, I would haul him off to a back room and threaten him to keep him quiet. But he simply couldn't not talk - most of it was jargon or echolalia. At the time I labelled this as oppositional. It wasn't - it was simply out of his control.
He was a child, the others in church objecting to the noise were adults. Eventually I realised that the supposedly more capable and mature adults would have to make the adjustment, at least for now. We don't punish babies for babbling loudly in church. At some point we have to realise that punishing someone for something they have as little control over (or a need for) is similarly unjust and counter-productive.
Another example - if I punished my child every time they had a drink of something liquid, they would try to comply maybe, but would eventually be forced by thirst to sneak drinks when I wasn't looking. There is a physiological need for fluids, or we die. Yet we punish our High-Functioning Autism (HFA)/Aspie kids for behaviours that to them are as necessary as a glass of water. From my observation and extensive reading, SOMETHING is produced, indistinguishable from ODD, when you repeatedly try to discipline a child out of something that they simply cannot help. There are other factors as well, but schools, which require a high level of group participation and regimentation, are potentially major contributors to this problem also.
SO, WID, don't blame yourself. Move on and learn from it. Be where you are now.
Marg
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
SO, WID, don't blame yourself. Move on and learn from it. Be where you are now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome. I'm sorry you had to find your way here. This, in my opinion, is the single best piece of advice in this thread. Guilt and shame only slows you down from helping your child receive the help he needs. Besides which, also in my opinion, there always seems to be someone willing to blame you. You really don't need to do that yourself. You have diagnosis's you believe to be true. Now it is time to move forward on a treatment/intervention plan to help your son gain as much functionality as possible. You need to advocate for him in all arenas. You educate yourself on his strengths and weaknesses. Surround yourself with professionals you feel you can trust. Question everything. It's healthy and keeps you involved in your son's care. It's also good to remember that while various specialists are experts in various areas, only you (and your wife) are the experts on your son, thus working to keep people from seeing him as only a sum of his diagnosis's an looking at the whole person.
SO, WID, don't blame yourself. Move on and learn from it. Be where you are now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome. I'm sorry you had to find your way here. This, in my opinion, is the single best piece of advice in this thread. Guilt and shame only slows you down from helping your child receive the help he needs. Besides which, also in my opinion, there always seems to be someone willing to blame you. You really don't need to do that yourself. You have diagnosis's you believe to be true. Now it is time to move forward on a treatment/intervention plan to help your son gain as much functionality as possible. You need to advocate for him in all arenas. You educate yourself on his strengths and weaknesses. Surround yourself with professionals you feel you can trust. Question everything. It's healthy and keeps you involved in your son's care. It's also good to remember that while various specialists are experts in various areas, only you (and your wife) are the experts on your son, thus working to keep people from seeing him as only a sum of his diagnosis's an looking at the whole person.
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