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NEWBIE - Borderline Kid/School Trouble - Questions
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 37671" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>OK, I've got a few observations, but please bear in mind that for us, things can be different Down Under.</p><p></p><p>For us, we NEVER go to a neurologist for diagnosis for something like this. Our neurologists tend to look at charts, dials, figures, results on a sheet of paper. If they can't stick an electrode in it or X-ray it, it doesn't exist. I have enough trouble with my neurological disorder because it has been so hard for neurologists to quantify. I have had two good neurologists (including my current one) and all the others have been lousy.</p><p>I would never have sent any of my kids to even my good, current bloke because it's simply not in their field.</p><p></p><p>I know a lot of you don't think much of psychologists, perhaps because they are for you what neurologists are for me. But for us, they are an important stage in the process of getting a diagnosis for any one of a number of learning disorders. If that psychologist is working with the child later in the piece, and has access to past reports from other specialities such as speech, Occupational Therapist (OT) and maybe neurology, THEN the psychologist CAN make a diagnosis but only based on prior multidisciplinary efforts. For us, not even a pediatrician can make a diagnosis on his own for certain, without the extra information.</p><p></p><p>My understanding of neuropsychologist - they CAN do this because they personally cross several specialisations. But having reports from others is always helpful to add detail to the picture.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 was diagnosed as somewhere on the autism spectrum, probably Asperger's, at age 3. He'd been assessed at 2 as having "significant language delay". This report was vital for later accurate assessment. </p><p>At three and a half we saw a pediatrician who used all existing information to diagnose autism. Because by that stage we had been carting ALL of our kids around to see people, because we knew that what we were told about them was grossly inaccurate, the same appointment where we were told of difficult child 3's autism, we were also told that difficult child 1 has Asperger's and easy child 2/difficult child 2 is borderline Asperger's, plus the three of them have ADHD. They were started on medications as soon as the government authority came through and we saw immediate improvement, especially in difficult child 3. It's kind of weird that medications for ADHD hep him with his language, but if you think about it it does make sense.</p><p></p><p>At 4, difficult child 3 was seen by a multidisciplinary clinic who confirmed the autism diagnosis. I later had a psychologist do another evaluation and she also agreed - autistic, not Asperger's. To say this she made it clear she was using prior reports from other experts, plus her own observations.</p><p></p><p>We're a family of greenies, but we're not tree-huggers. We know tree-huggers and feel very impatient with them sometimes. difficult child 3's best friend's family are tree-huggers. His best friend also is autistic (high functioning, mild) but he NEEDS the medications. He does a lot better when medicated but his mother was too anxious about using the medications, for years. Now, five years later, he gets medicated most school days but if he's having a good morning before school she won't medicate him "because he is having a good day so far". She has no idea of the damage she is doing to him by chopping and changing - one day he copes, the next he doesn't. He's up and down like a yo-yo. I volunteer at the school and often see it. She does not, because she only sees him at home when the medications have either not kicked in, or have worn off. What happens in between is beyond her knowledge.</p><p></p><p>You said, "What really stinks though is that I can't really pull him out NOW with only 9+ weeks left of school."</p><p></p><p>Why not? Changing to another school at this point might be a problem, although it shouldn't be - but what's wrong with teaching him at home for the last few weeks?</p><p>I agree with your assessment, it's this other kid who is the problem. Your son is showing signs of anxiety which are tipping over into difficult behaviour (which is his way of coping, of warning this kid to stay away). The history you gave of your son being a bit bossy in the past - boy, does it fit with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids! I think your instinct was spot on. Our kids like rules to be followed. If they don't know all the rules they will observe and assess then determine for themselves what the rules may be. For example, difficult child 3 WAS TAUGHT that you don't hit other kids. But because the school didn't do a darn thing to stop kids bullying, pushing, shoving and beating up, difficult child 3's observations didn't back up our teaching. He was told, "not hitting," but SAW that other kids hit all the time, so he did it too. of course, HE got caught. Or got dobbed in. The school attitude was to blame the kid who can't defend himself, because it would be too hard to actually DEAL with the problem kids. So difficult child 3 would come home bleeding, he (and his friend) would tell me what happened, I would tell the teacher and he would ask the perpetrator, who would of course deny it. Then the teacher would go to difficult child 3 and say to him, "Adam says he didn't deliberately trip you up, you just fell. So it was wrong of you to blame Adam wen he didn't do it."</p><p>difficult child 3 would come home and say, "I was SURE Adam had tripped me up but my teacher said he didn't, so I must be wrong."</p><p>This only served to heighten his anxiety, which made him even touchier, more likely to lash out physically. The worse his anxiety got the harder he was to handle at school. Then he began getting sick, to the point of throwing a low-grade fever and vomiting, so of course we kept thinking there was something physical wrong. In the meantime, he would be home from school, doing schoolwork at home. And feeling well, and working well. I would send him back to school - he would be vomiting by recess.</p><p></p><p>There have been several times when we pulled him out and kept him home, sometimes for several months because symptoms would return. Not only did he NOT suffer academically, he improved socially.</p><p></p><p>Your son sounds like he's at the wrong school. I can see several choices:</p><p></p><p>1) Pull him out.</p><p></p><p>2) Leave him there but ask that he be accelerated into a different classroom. Point out that your son is not safe around this other child and that the school is therefore responsible for any harm that comes to your son as a result of their failure to protect him after they have been formally advised. </p><p></p><p>3) Get your son assessed. Although I don't see this as an option, I think this is essential. A label of autism (or similar) will not hurt him, it can only help. Make sure whoever you take him to has access to all previous reports including the neurologist and the Speech Therapist. The poor muscle tone can also be a pointer for related disorders in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and ADD. Both my boys have poor muscle tone. easy child 2/difficult child 2 is dyspraxic (and yet she walks on stilts!). She cannot catch or throw a ball with any accuracy, and yet she taught circus skills last year.</p><p></p><p>4) FYI, and perhaps to help you sort out how your parental instinct is working, do the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on <a href="http://www.childbrain.com." target="_blank">http://www.childbrain.com.</a> It's not officially diagnostic but you can print the results (whatever the score) and take it to any specialist you are taking your son to.</p><p></p><p>From what you have said, I think you have hit the nail on the head. MWM & I both have a lot in common on this sort of topic - our boys are very similar.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 was discussing being different this morning, he was feeling very different from the rest of the world. easy child 2/difficult child 2 pointed out that in our family we are ALL weird, or different. In good ways. I added, "IQ, for example."</p><p>He replied, "I have an IQ?" (sounded like that wonderful line from "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" when Prince John says, "I have a mole?")</p><p>We pointed out that although we know his IQ is high, it is the same as every other family member. We just happen to be a family with high IQs, whatever that means.</p><p></p><p>So if your son also is very bright (which is not the same thing as having a high IQ - difficult child 3 failed his first IQ test at 4 because he was severely language-delayed at the time) then chances are he's learning to adapt to whatever-it-is and mask it. Trying to get a diagnosis later on requires far more access to early history (and professional assessments) because simple observation of the individual will not be as helpful. And just because someone appears to function normally, doesn't mean they ARE normal. At some level, there is more stress than normal, as they paddle desperately to present a semblance of calm, like the swan on the lake.</p><p></p><p>As difficult child 3 said when he was 8, "I'm getting better at pretending to be normal."</p><p></p><p>difficult child 1 is now 23. He has adapted beautifully. His girlfriend has a hard time accepting there is anything wrong with him at all, but he says he knows it and lives with it every day. He enjoys knowing that he can fool other people into thinking he's normal, but he also enjoys the 'gifts' this has given him, including an ability to concentrate really intensely on one item, even shutting out sound. He can't multi-task without a written list, unlike difficult child 3 who is brilliant at it. difficult child 3's gifts include being able to look at a problem or technological device and assess it simultaneously from a multitude of different points of view. He's uncanny. In this respect it's like the boys are opposites. easy child 2/difficult child 2 also has an eye for minute detail. Their supposedly normal older sister also has a good eye for machines and tools. Both girls are skilled with their hands, although easy child can't sew for nuts and is a lousy cook. But as an Occupational Therapist (OT) she can see exactly what sort of device needs to be made to suit a particular patient for a particular task.</p><p></p><p>Our difficult child kids need our help in various sometimes surprising ways, but they also have gifts which the world needs and which will help them find their niche, if we can support them on the way.</p><p></p><p>You are off to a great start. Your instinct is a great asset and you are determined to see your child given every chance.</p><p></p><p>Go for it!</p><p></p><p>Marg</p><p></p><p>by the way, I do have a few other practical suggestions but I felt this wasn't the right situation. Besides, you seem to be so in tune you mightn't need them and I didn't want to cloud things with too much detail.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 37671, member: 1991"] OK, I've got a few observations, but please bear in mind that for us, things can be different Down Under. For us, we NEVER go to a neurologist for diagnosis for something like this. Our neurologists tend to look at charts, dials, figures, results on a sheet of paper. If they can't stick an electrode in it or X-ray it, it doesn't exist. I have enough trouble with my neurological disorder because it has been so hard for neurologists to quantify. I have had two good neurologists (including my current one) and all the others have been lousy. I would never have sent any of my kids to even my good, current bloke because it's simply not in their field. I know a lot of you don't think much of psychologists, perhaps because they are for you what neurologists are for me. But for us, they are an important stage in the process of getting a diagnosis for any one of a number of learning disorders. If that psychologist is working with the child later in the piece, and has access to past reports from other specialities such as speech, Occupational Therapist (OT) and maybe neurology, THEN the psychologist CAN make a diagnosis but only based on prior multidisciplinary efforts. For us, not even a pediatrician can make a diagnosis on his own for certain, without the extra information. My understanding of neuropsychologist - they CAN do this because they personally cross several specialisations. But having reports from others is always helpful to add detail to the picture. difficult child 3 was diagnosed as somewhere on the autism spectrum, probably Asperger's, at age 3. He'd been assessed at 2 as having "significant language delay". This report was vital for later accurate assessment. At three and a half we saw a pediatrician who used all existing information to diagnose autism. Because by that stage we had been carting ALL of our kids around to see people, because we knew that what we were told about them was grossly inaccurate, the same appointment where we were told of difficult child 3's autism, we were also told that difficult child 1 has Asperger's and easy child 2/difficult child 2 is borderline Asperger's, plus the three of them have ADHD. They were started on medications as soon as the government authority came through and we saw immediate improvement, especially in difficult child 3. It's kind of weird that medications for ADHD hep him with his language, but if you think about it it does make sense. At 4, difficult child 3 was seen by a multidisciplinary clinic who confirmed the autism diagnosis. I later had a psychologist do another evaluation and she also agreed - autistic, not Asperger's. To say this she made it clear she was using prior reports from other experts, plus her own observations. We're a family of greenies, but we're not tree-huggers. We know tree-huggers and feel very impatient with them sometimes. difficult child 3's best friend's family are tree-huggers. His best friend also is autistic (high functioning, mild) but he NEEDS the medications. He does a lot better when medicated but his mother was too anxious about using the medications, for years. Now, five years later, he gets medicated most school days but if he's having a good morning before school she won't medicate him "because he is having a good day so far". She has no idea of the damage she is doing to him by chopping and changing - one day he copes, the next he doesn't. He's up and down like a yo-yo. I volunteer at the school and often see it. She does not, because she only sees him at home when the medications have either not kicked in, or have worn off. What happens in between is beyond her knowledge. You said, "What really stinks though is that I can't really pull him out NOW with only 9+ weeks left of school." Why not? Changing to another school at this point might be a problem, although it shouldn't be - but what's wrong with teaching him at home for the last few weeks? I agree with your assessment, it's this other kid who is the problem. Your son is showing signs of anxiety which are tipping over into difficult behaviour (which is his way of coping, of warning this kid to stay away). The history you gave of your son being a bit bossy in the past - boy, does it fit with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids! I think your instinct was spot on. Our kids like rules to be followed. If they don't know all the rules they will observe and assess then determine for themselves what the rules may be. For example, difficult child 3 WAS TAUGHT that you don't hit other kids. But because the school didn't do a darn thing to stop kids bullying, pushing, shoving and beating up, difficult child 3's observations didn't back up our teaching. He was told, "not hitting," but SAW that other kids hit all the time, so he did it too. of course, HE got caught. Or got dobbed in. The school attitude was to blame the kid who can't defend himself, because it would be too hard to actually DEAL with the problem kids. So difficult child 3 would come home bleeding, he (and his friend) would tell me what happened, I would tell the teacher and he would ask the perpetrator, who would of course deny it. Then the teacher would go to difficult child 3 and say to him, "Adam says he didn't deliberately trip you up, you just fell. So it was wrong of you to blame Adam wen he didn't do it." difficult child 3 would come home and say, "I was SURE Adam had tripped me up but my teacher said he didn't, so I must be wrong." This only served to heighten his anxiety, which made him even touchier, more likely to lash out physically. The worse his anxiety got the harder he was to handle at school. Then he began getting sick, to the point of throwing a low-grade fever and vomiting, so of course we kept thinking there was something physical wrong. In the meantime, he would be home from school, doing schoolwork at home. And feeling well, and working well. I would send him back to school - he would be vomiting by recess. There have been several times when we pulled him out and kept him home, sometimes for several months because symptoms would return. Not only did he NOT suffer academically, he improved socially. Your son sounds like he's at the wrong school. I can see several choices: 1) Pull him out. 2) Leave him there but ask that he be accelerated into a different classroom. Point out that your son is not safe around this other child and that the school is therefore responsible for any harm that comes to your son as a result of their failure to protect him after they have been formally advised. 3) Get your son assessed. Although I don't see this as an option, I think this is essential. A label of autism (or similar) will not hurt him, it can only help. Make sure whoever you take him to has access to all previous reports including the neurologist and the Speech Therapist. The poor muscle tone can also be a pointer for related disorders in Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and ADD. Both my boys have poor muscle tone. easy child 2/difficult child 2 is dyspraxic (and yet she walks on stilts!). She cannot catch or throw a ball with any accuracy, and yet she taught circus skills last year. 4) FYI, and perhaps to help you sort out how your parental instinct is working, do the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on [url="http://www.childbrain.com."]http://www.childbrain.com.[/url] It's not officially diagnostic but you can print the results (whatever the score) and take it to any specialist you are taking your son to. From what you have said, I think you have hit the nail on the head. MWM & I both have a lot in common on this sort of topic - our boys are very similar. difficult child 3 was discussing being different this morning, he was feeling very different from the rest of the world. easy child 2/difficult child 2 pointed out that in our family we are ALL weird, or different. In good ways. I added, "IQ, for example." He replied, "I have an IQ?" (sounded like that wonderful line from "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" when Prince John says, "I have a mole?") We pointed out that although we know his IQ is high, it is the same as every other family member. We just happen to be a family with high IQs, whatever that means. So if your son also is very bright (which is not the same thing as having a high IQ - difficult child 3 failed his first IQ test at 4 because he was severely language-delayed at the time) then chances are he's learning to adapt to whatever-it-is and mask it. Trying to get a diagnosis later on requires far more access to early history (and professional assessments) because simple observation of the individual will not be as helpful. And just because someone appears to function normally, doesn't mean they ARE normal. At some level, there is more stress than normal, as they paddle desperately to present a semblance of calm, like the swan on the lake. As difficult child 3 said when he was 8, "I'm getting better at pretending to be normal." difficult child 1 is now 23. He has adapted beautifully. His girlfriend has a hard time accepting there is anything wrong with him at all, but he says he knows it and lives with it every day. He enjoys knowing that he can fool other people into thinking he's normal, but he also enjoys the 'gifts' this has given him, including an ability to concentrate really intensely on one item, even shutting out sound. He can't multi-task without a written list, unlike difficult child 3 who is brilliant at it. difficult child 3's gifts include being able to look at a problem or technological device and assess it simultaneously from a multitude of different points of view. He's uncanny. In this respect it's like the boys are opposites. easy child 2/difficult child 2 also has an eye for minute detail. Their supposedly normal older sister also has a good eye for machines and tools. Both girls are skilled with their hands, although easy child can't sew for nuts and is a lousy cook. But as an Occupational Therapist (OT) she can see exactly what sort of device needs to be made to suit a particular patient for a particular task. Our difficult child kids need our help in various sometimes surprising ways, but they also have gifts which the world needs and which will help them find their niche, if we can support them on the way. You are off to a great start. Your instinct is a great asset and you are determined to see your child given every chance. Go for it! Marg by the way, I do have a few other practical suggestions but I felt this wasn't the right situation. Besides, you seem to be so in tune you mightn't need them and I didn't want to cloud things with too much detail. [/QUOTE]
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