Now I'm re-evaluating....

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by klmno, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Ok tonight was interesting and made me re-think things. Unfortunately, I took difficult child to therapist appointment only to find out that it was yesterday. I apologized profusely and left a message with the receptionist that he call me. Since that was at 5:00pm, I guess he'll call on Monday.

    Anyway, we got home and difficult child locked himself in my "office" so he could use the computer, which he had lost priviledges to. I know I talked to him on the way home about my researching ways to find supports and help so maybe he could stay at home, but really, I don;'t think I was antagonistic or threatening. Anyway, I pulled out my key, unlocked the office door, and difficult child was standing on the other side with a hammer in his hand, rared back ready to swing it toward my head. I crossed a line at that point.

    I turned around and walked away. I said ok, that's fine and went to do something else. But mentally, I know my son needs to be someplace else for a while.

    He calmed down after about 45 mins and has been nice since then. No problem. I understand his medications and his system are probably all out of whack with so many medication stuff going on. But, I can't live with 30 secs of bodily threat periodically, no matter what the reason. That doesn't mean I blame him, only that I cannot let this go on- between the inability to get to school, the inability for me to get to work, the inability for me to keep him stable and both of us protected. It just has to stop. NOW.

    So I need to know- how can I get him into a placement as an emergency situation without it being a legal issue for him?

    I can't make him go to a psychiatric hospital at this point. If I call 911 for police help, the police will come and talk to him and leave him here and difficult child will have to answer to the judge for another violation- been there done that. That isn't my goal. My goal is similar to if he threatened a younger sibling- they come and remove the kid who did the threatening. If the kid needs to stay away a while, they work with everyone to try to get the kid back home.

    Is there anything I can do- anyone I can call- to arrange to have difficult child taken to another place (other than juvy) to stay a while, while maybe we work through things therapeutically with the ultimate goal of him coming back home? And I mean somewwhere I can call that doesn't take weeks or months to get some action done? If I had done this to him, he would be out of here within 2 hours of the report.

    I don't mind doing the FAPT thing- but he needs to be living somewhere else to start off with.

    Maybe I just feel more assured about this since I read online today that VA did come up with a "non-custodial foster parent" option. This means that parents who have not lost custody due to their neglect or abuse can sign consent for their child to live in a foster care environment temporarily but maintain custody of that child, and since it was voluntary, the parent can withdraw that consent at any time. Under those circumstances, the agency is actually pushing hard for the parent to take and get the child back in the home. It appears that the parent has to go thru social services, but I don;t know who or when to call to make sure it ends up this way. Obviously, I can't just drive difficult child somewhere and drop him off. This was have to be arranged ahead of time so difficult child isn't wise to what is happening. But, I would want to bethere, with others there, so I could explain to difficult child that this isn't permanent and I'm not abandoning him, that I will be there and that the goal is for him to come back home.
  2. Jena

    Jena New Member

    Hi I can totally see why you have taken time to re evaluate things for right now. You are right you need to get him somewhere temporarily until such time that he is more stable and can re-enter the home atmosphere. You cant live like that being afraid and threatened that way.

    My heart goes out to you, it really does. I commend you on keeping your calm in that situation and walking away the way in which you did. I'm not sure I could of. I wish I had an answer as to where you could call at this point, other than doing what you were speaking of earlier in regards to invovling that agency. I'm fighting to stay awake, and I have to be up right now I can click around on the internet to see if i can find anything.

    I think others may have a much better idea than I do on this. I just wanted to tell you i support all your efforts with him.

  3. Jena

    Jena New Member

    I found this, i have no clue if you'd be
    interested or if it would work.

  4. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Not only am I not going to live this way, but I can't continue letting this kid think that HE can do this. It isn't just me- what is he going to grow up thinking? That he can do this to his wife someday? That this is permissable or he can get by with it? No, that line is drawn.

    Now, the online site says that funding can be provided in emergency situations without the FAPT processes, but, a FAPT meeting would HAVE to take place within 14 days of that emergency. I don't know for sure, but I'm hoping that emergency doesn't just mean getting to a doctor. I just don't know who to call. The local menatal health clinic- you get put on a 3 mo waiting list, then go thru their intern todocs who know nothing, they lose files, it's a disaster, that would take at least a year before they got around to recommending anything. And, in that year, difficult child would be living here, seeing their so-called tdocs instead of his private one, and I end up taking him over there sitting and waiting for 4 hours for a scheduled 1 hour appointment. It pains me- if I had moved us to the next jurisdiction over, they actually have a competent group running things, but because I moved us here, we have to use this local clinic.

    Ok, that was a vent. sorry.

    I love him. I think he's more than a little salvageable, really. But I think it's going to take more than this to salvage him. And juvy isn't salvaging, at least not here.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  5. Jena

    Jena New Member

    Vent away i'm totally listening. I'd be freaking out, you are so good and calm. YOu are so right you cannot allow him to become potentially volatile to you and threaten you and it will teach him that this behavior is acceptable.

    If I were you id' call tomorrow or next day they answer the program that u spoke of, the funded one. I know you don't want to open your doors to all these ppl i don't blame you. It sounds silly yet what i do is I write down all my numbers to call and i actually write down on the paper what it is i want and I sit and call and harrass each office or number. Eventually i hit the right one, usually after being on hold for hours. lol. I'd problem start with calling that program first and find out exactly what the 14 day thing is.

    Listen, I seriously would do exactly what your thinking of doing right now. It doesn't mean you don't love him or think he's able to get past this, yet your smart in realizing that at this point the potential for the situation to become worse is great.

    I think the po by the way did you a great disservice handling the situation the way in which she did, it undermined you to an extent. power with a male difficult child in a single family home is crucial. it's crucial with females, sheesh i know.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  6. dawnmyst

    dawnmyst New Member

    I know in the county I live in NYS there is a program called Parental Respite where the county will place children when parents are at their wit's end. I am a teacher and I know that around the holidays children seem to go to Respite more frequently. I am not sure if it is a type of foster care but I think that the children stay there for a few weeks or maybe a month. I would look in the government pages and call a family Service program.

    You DO need a break and so does he for awhile. Best of Luck.
  7. ML

    ML Guest

    I just wanted to tell you that you're in my prayers. You are a true warrior mom. Hugs, ML
  8. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    I didn't even finish reading all of your last email. I am so sorry for you, my heart really goes out to you. You are right, you really need to do something NOW. I have felt this for some time about your situation.

    The first thing I would do is put in an emergency call to your son's psychiatrist and insist! that your son is a physical threat to you and he needs to be evaluated and admitted right now!

    The next thing I would try is to call a psychiatric hospital, or your regular hospital. don't they usually have a psychiatric floor of some sorts and be frantic and insist that he be admitted. If you have a state hospital, he needs to go there if you can't get him admitted elsewhere.

    For whatever reason, your son has really, really, crossed the line. He crossed the line before tonight too. One day, if things don't deteriorate further, you will look back and wonder what the heck you were thinking, not taking definitive action sooner for his sake and for your protection.

    Huge hugs and I'm sorry for sounding like this. Would you make the phone calls you need to make right now and then get back to us? I'm really worried about you.
  9. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    It isn't that simple Mom to 3, but I really do appreciate your concern. difficult child is in bed right now- he was calm after about 45 mins of me leaving him alone, so there is no physical threat at this point.

    The only way to get him into a psychiatric hospital is if I show up with him at an ER and the evaluating psychiatrist determines that difficult child is an immenent threat to himself or others. difficult child has been in there before- twice, each for about 1 week. His regular psychiatrist WILL NOT admit him. Calling police will not get him there, although by standards written on paper they would, the reality is that they won't. Calling a hospital and saying I think he needs to be there will not get him admitted. I know you're trying to help, and I'm sincerely not trying to shoot this down, but I first went through it almost 3 years ago and it took me a month or so to figure out how things work around here.

    Anyway, even if he got into a psychiatric hospital, they would only keep him about a week (it's all my insurance pays for), unless I got him into the state psychiatric hospital- which is for violent (very violent) mentally ill and instead of them helping, the kid gets lost in the system for ages. The PO tried to get difficult child there when I took him to the ER this past spring. I found a way around it and got difficult child into the local private psychiatric hospital. But, the psychiatric hospital will write a treatment plan to implement upon discharge. It doesn't matter what they recommend- they recommended the very thing I'm still trying to get 2 1/2 years ago- the public agencies will not approve it without going through "their" processes. Their processes are what I wrote about in the other thread and I'm still researching.

    You've been a big help, so I sure don't want to shoot down your ideas- especially when I know you're trying to push for an answer. I'm physically ok though, difficult child does these things when he isn't stable- every few mos. You probably haven't followed my other threads completely, but he's had big medication changes lately and he clearly isn't stable.

    I could get him out of the house if I called 911, but the whole thing would land him in the state Department of Juvenile Justice detention for a very long time- with no mental health care. Since I know that it isn't all difficult child's fault that he isn't stable, I still want to advocate for him. I just think he should be living someplace else for a little while, during the first part of this.

    Thank you, though, so much for caring!!!
  10. dreamer

    dreamer New Member

    I have nothing to offer but my own past experience- which is nothing good to offer..cuz I searched and seeked and advocated and fought here for years and years.....for my daughter and my husband and in the end, most of what I did find ended up not being worth paper it was written on. Many of the programs here...I was in their beginning stages, their start up, actually I was instrumental in starting many of the programs here in our, advocating, asking, begging etc...etc I would research for ideas, bring them to our county board and to our school.....but sadly, things never fell in place quite how the theory went for lots of the programs, at least not while I was still in need. Aw nuts, I think I have talked to you before about some of our experiences I am sure you understand what I am saying?
    I guess I am simply saying...HUGS. I WISH I had helpful ideas. I am sending you good luck. I am sorry it is still so hard to get help for our kids. I keep hoping things will improve, and SOON.
    My daughter is a lovely girl....I am sure your son is, too. But, they just fall thru cracks all over the place. It is so very sad, breaks my heart so bad some days. It is SO hard for the difficult children and their families. and it is SO unfair.

    Hugs and hugs and more hugs to you.
  11. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    I heard you. :) I'm going to give this another try to try to supply you with information or resources you haven't found yet.

    Did you know that you can call 211 in your state and get a list of government services for just about anything, including mental health issues? click on mental/emotional disturbance. Strengthening our System Inc. has information for support.
    Click on mental health-inpatient

    Mailing Address:
    802 HILLMAN HWY.
    ABINGDON, VA 24210 Physical Address:
    Highlands Comm. Counseling Ctr.
    802 Hillman Hwy.
    Abingdon, VA 24210
    Show Map

    Telephone Numbers:
    Phone #: 276 628-5173 or (276) 628-5067 Intake
    Phone #: 276 466-8639 or (276) 466-8651 Intake
    Phone #: 276 676-6277 After Hours
    Phone #: 276 669-7134 After Hours
    Fax #: 276 628-3871

    Program Details:
    Operating Agency: Highlands Community Services
    Person In-Charge: Evelyn Hamilton Program Director
    Hours: Su,M,T,W,Th,F,Sa 24-Hours.
    Eligibility: Services are available to adults, children and the elderly.
    Fees: Charges vary according to income.
    Intake Procedure: Walk-ins and telephone referrals accepted.
    Service Area: County of Washington; City of Bristol.
    About the Program: Provides a uniform portal of entry for prompt and easy access to services for individuals who may be eligible for HCS services. Access ensures that individuals requesting services receive a standardized screening by well trained and qualified staff. The Access Services Unit includes screening, information and referral, appointment scheduling, discharge planning, and referral for emergency services.
    Attached Keywords: 1: Crisis Intervention/Prevention 2: Mental Health-Inpatient 3: Mental Health-Outpatient 4: Substance Abuse Ed/Prevention
  12. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    OK, well first of all. I am SO so sorry.:mad: This really stinks. You know I can empathize, so I won't belabor that point. GRrrrrr............

    However, I don't understand. When Matt has been that mentally ill, I have simply driven him to the phopsh, admitted him through ER, and told them what was going on. It was a simple process. They questioned me, they questioned him, and then they took my word that he was "out of control". I have also called 911 and demanded for an ambulance to transport a mentally ill patient to a hospital.

    Once in phosph I remember a time that they would not release him unless I signed papers that stated I was pulling him out against medical advice, because they deemed him unsafe and in need of a Residential Treatment Center (RTC). Legally they cannot release the patient back to society if they decide he is a threat without giving the responsibility back to the parent to sign him out.

    So, I am not meaning to doubt you in anyway. And Matt has not been involved with the legal system, but I am just wondering if maybe there are ways to get him hospitalized you have not pursued. And once there at a phosph, I know you can tell the doctors you will not take him home - because that is what happened with Matt back in Sept. The phoshp had to keep him there until there was a placement found, because I told them he was unsafe to come home.

    Many hugs. PM me if you need a sounding board. I know every state is different - for that matter every county is different. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
  13. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    I wish I had an answer.
    Did find this... maybe you have seen it already? I don't think this is what Mom to 3 posted?
    Has a bunch of info and links, directory.
  14. dreamer

    dreamer New Member

    Stelly, I do think geographically, it can vary considerably from state to state, and also county by county. I also think type of insurance coverage (or lack thereof) can have a lot to do with things, as well.
    My husband was in VA hospital, actively mid medication induced violent psychosis....standing ON the nurseing station desk screaming incoherently......and psychiatric hospital called security to force me to take him home discharged him. I kept saying no and I left.....they had security come get me from my car.

    I have had ambulance and police refuse to transport, and have er refuse to admit even when difficult child was in process of cutting in front of them........
    It just depends on SO many things....
    I am VERY afraid as economy gets worse, more services will be cut even more.....oh the horror stories I witnesed in fellow day treatment patients here in the 90s......when funding dried up. VERY scary. It might get progressively harder to get help anywhere.
    And truth is some of the helping places etc are looking good on paper, or in theory, but, once involved, you sometimes find that NOTHING goes how it is supposed to, not even close. Very often here, our experience was people referred you over there...and once over there...they refered you over there.....and noone really did anything.except refer you somehwere else....hoping you would never catch on to the truth that all any of them were doing was simply passing the buck. Hoping you would be so busy moving along you might forget to notice your loved one was not really being helped at all.....
    And es, you could be approved for things here, but then there would be 1,000 reasons wy opps this did not work out rigt, oh the person in charge s out sick (except guess wh, te persn in charge actually did not even exist at all) Respite ordered and approved, and respite person is en route to your house.....en route to your house for 3 days, but never arrives......(I found out after being hired as a respite provider at the very same company that that was a ploy.becuz they had so few employees, they could only fill maybe one quarter of the positions, so they would make up excuses for nonexistant respite workers----then they would record in paperwork to county that the client refused respite entrance to home once they arrived at home, when truth was they never sent anyone out to client at all, becuz they HAD noone to send)
    HA, difficult children one discharge included very clear instructions - her discharge was supposedly contingent upon specific things....such as MY attendance at parenting group at same psychiatric hospital twice a week post discharge? HA! they had no group leader....and cancelled the group- difficult child was supposed to "follow up with her psychiatrist at same facility associated with psychiatric hospital? Yeah right....reason difficult child landed in psychiatric hospital was becuz the same facility HAD no psychiatrist...the psychiatrists had all quit and they could not get a replacement.......for 11 months.

    These things occured........I was not posting here at that time, but I WAS posting at another diferent parent support group online at that time.....and......there were people who wondered about my ntegrity becuz of my complaints.....they actually sent people from that online support site to us in person.........who found~ yup- sometimes, someplaces.things really can be that bad.
    I will always be grateful that site knew people, and got my difficult child in to a wonderful psychiatrist etc -altho that psychiatrist was a VERY VERY long trip from our home. and we stopped useing ALL services local after that........
  15. house of cards

    house of cards New Member

    I have no advice, just (((hugs))). Once Major picked up a 2 x 4 and charged at me because I had given him a haircut and it hurt him. He had such a feral look in his eyes, then it turned to fear, he swung the board away and ran past me. We were out on a deck. I can't imagine what it must feel like with a 13 yo, Major was just a little kid.

    Anyway, the fear in Major's eyes was because he was scared by what he was doing, does your difficult child have remorse??, not that it makes it right, maybe just a tad less frightening.
  16. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Lucky us, K is only 7, when she gets that look or is violent I am still able to overpower her. It still is scary though.
    I do get nervous thinking, what if she is still doing this in a few years? Or it gets worse?
    You always think you can kick your kids :censored2: if it came down to it, but obviously there comes a time when either they are stronger than us or they just plain scare us!
    Who would have thought?
    Some of these old guys like our Grandpa's or what not would be appalled that we were not kicking their butts...
    Just doesn't seem to work does it?
    So back to Therapy...
    Sorry just off on a tangent thinking about you
  17. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Thanks everyone for the support and suggestions. I ma still mulling this over and looking at things online. I'm trying to get the nerve to email the principal and see what she thinks- you would think that would be easy and not cause any stress, huh?

    I wish I could get something like WO (Sharon) has- where I could call someone when things are out of control and someone would take difficult child for a day or two "stop the world", then he could come back. I think that might help him before this becomes too much of an easy habit for him.

    Re psychiatric hospital: when difficult child is acute, I can't get him in the car. If I call for assistance to get him to a psychiatric hospital, unless difficult child has a knife in his hand threatening someone with it when they get here, or unless he tells them he's going to kill himself or another, he gets a police report that goes to the judge and PO and has to answer to it in court. Even if it is me that over-reacted. We had this happen before. Last spring, I got him to an er after he calmed down a bit, so he was there willingly. I had to "fudge" things a little, but I beleived he needed in there so I don't feel guilty. It's a lst reosrt, mainly because I don't think that alone will solve anything long-term.

    toto- the link you put up is what I'm using- I found it through infor mom to 3 provided - thank you both!! The more I look, the more it seems that I have a good arguement of getting this. psychiatrist even suggested it last year, but legal people involved steered away from it. That makes me leary because no one has told me why- it could be because of funding (lack of) or it could be because legally, it would makes things worse or harder for both of us or difficult child, I'm not sure. I am concerned because nothing seems that easy without repercussions, Know what I mean??

    HOC: difficult child does seem remorseful afterwards, although he used to seem more remorseful in the past than he does now. I do think that if something isn't done to completely stop this, it will be too easy for him to give into the impulses and come to believe that it's acceptable. That scares me to see that in his future, as much as it physicaly scares me.

    The experience with the MST guy last year has me skiddish, too. My concerns include:

    1) He had no kids but wanted to tell me how to parent (he doesn't even know how to parent a easy child) and would act like I should be providing recreation opportunites, friendship visits for me andd difficult child, etc. Well, the reality is that difficult child had no friends, I had no time and energy or money, and it was all I could do to work full time, come home at 5:00 or 5:30, meet with this guy at 6:30, make sure difficult child already had homework done, cook dinner after this guy left at 7:30-8:00, get difficult child to go get cleaned up while I cleared dishes, get difficult child to bed on time.

    2) This guy tried to take over difficult child's mental health treatment- he wanted to go with us to appts with psychiatrist/therapist. Here, I'd been telling difficult child that he should confide inhis therapist, it would be kept between the two of them and this guy wanted to tell the therapist what he should be doing with difficult child

    3) This guy wanted to go to iep meetings and help write a behavior contract. the school wasn't having behavior issues with difficult child and we'd already decided that difficult child should not have a behavior contract. I had spent a LONG time getting the school and iep team to see that there was more going on with difficult child than a behavior problem- the last thing I needed was someone coming into this who had not even been around before telling the iep team that difficult child needed a contract for behavior and basicly, taking over the iep

    4) Since the courts were involved and it was public funuding, the guy was supposed to report everything- including progress and compliance- to the court. If I didn't do exactly what he wanted, he would tell the judge I wasn't cooperative.

    5) He was not consistent. He would tell me one thing one day, and something entirely different another day.

    So, if we were to get a case manager who acts like this, would we be able to change that person?

    on the other hand, if we're headed for this, we are much better off if I intiate it/ask for it because I think they would be more apt to see me as cooperative, listen to me about what I think we/difficult child needs, and hear me if I say there is a conflict with one particular person or this particular idea is not working. (At least in theory) But, last year, I ask for in-home help and the judge ordered that (so county would pay for it). Something got mis-contrued and the MST guy was ordered. MST was for a kid with conduct disorder and that problem being the biggest issue. Now one would think that once I explained and showed evidence to MST guy that this was not the biggest issue in our house or at school, he would have said "oh, ok, well I'll report that, I understand where you're coming from". After all, the initail request for help came from me. But instead, I had to get everything in writing and take it to court to show evidence to the judge because the GAL, the MST guy and the PO told me they DID NOT CARE what issue difficult child had- MST was ordered and we had to do it. I got it changed, but what I had to go through to get it changed was remarkable.

    I want to make sure that I'm not walking into a similar or worse situation this time.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2008
  18. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I know that this is way too simplistic, so be forewarned that I am asking because I don't understand how it would work out, rather than that I am absolutely suggesting that one of us try this. Although, I'm sure that many of us have, and it has gotten to the point in my suggestion that I will leave off at...


    K takes her son home, he locks himself in the bedroom, threatens her with a hammer, she fears for her safety, and somehow she manages to get him into an ER for psychiatric admit after having given his psychiatrist a head's up that she is doing so. They make her wait 8 hours, he's bored and acts like a typical teen and tells them "Well, I really wasn't going to kill her with it, and I have no thoughts of harming her or me or anyone else." They tell K to take him home. K tells them to shove it. They threaten to call the police on her, and she walks out the door without difficult child.

    Seriously, what are they going to do? They're going to put him in foster care if there's nothing for him in the hospital, and maybe even charge K with abandonment, which she will fight with all of her psychiatrist records and parent reports, and difficult child will get a placement somewhere because she says "he is not coming home until someone can prove to me that I should feel safe. If that means there's something wrong with me that makes me unable to clearly see how stable he is, then so be it. Give me therapy and a class to prepare for his eventual return."

    Or am I totally oversimplifying this? In hindsight, this is what we should have done with M before he assaulted his dad and had him at the ER for an admit.
  19. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    K - and anyone else out there who has missed a therapist appointment, please contact your doctor's office and tell them that you need a reminder call for all appointments! They should be calling you the day before to remind you.

    Also, given the amount of time we all spend on our computers, it's probably time to set up a calendar that opens on start up and to keep our doctor appointments on them. My calendar is the first thing I see when I start the computer, set to a monthly view. So if something is happening this week, I see it. I also have everything set to a reminder 90 minutes ahead so that I will get off my duff and get going.
  20. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am sorry things are going so badly. I know that you think the processes are BS and possibly damaging. However, you simply are NOT going to get much help unless you are willing to do at least some of the carp that the agencies require.

    I reallly think it is time to find an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) for your son, then go to the judge and tell him your son is ill and dangerous and needs placement in X Residential Treatment Center (RTC). Ask the judge to order difficult child to the Residential Treatment Center (RTC).

    If you do not, he IS going to hurt you, and possibly seriously. the thing with the hammer is scary.

    MOST placements will NOT take a child with-o a court order. At least here.

    I don't think there is any way you are going to get the help you need with-o the court. Even foster homes must be court ordered.

    It may be useful to call your insurance and tell an intake person in the behavioral health section (what they call mental health) what is going on - the threats, school refusal, etc....They MIGHT have some option. If they do have an option and you can get difficult child there, then you may have to refuse to take him home until they see his behaviors.

    If you know what triggers him, it just might pay you to do those things in the psychiatric hospital early on, so they can SEE him threatening you.

    There just are not many other options.

    I am sorry.