Of course he makes me feel guilty

K

Kjs

Guest
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donna723</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> if he hasn't done it already, the next step will be twisting it all around so it's all YOUR fault! Just wait!</div></div>
 

busywend

Well-Known Member
Are you serious? He thinks doing this after 24 years of marriage is the same a what you did at 20? Does he not realize people grow and gain wisdom as we get older?

I do not think you should worry about staying or not staying. Just go to counseling and let things play out. Figure out yourself first before you worry about his ....anything.
 
Karen,

I agree with Suz. Do not feel guilty!!! This is not your fault!!! Don't let him twist things around in your head!!! He, alone, is responsible for his actions!!!

Make another appointment with your counselor. You are so strong!!! As I said in another post a few minutes ago to you, I truly believe you will come out of this a happier person... I'm just so sorry you have to go through all of this pain first!!!

We're here to listen... Hugs, WFEN
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Karen, please go back and read what I wrote in your previous thread. Everything he is doing now is proving my analysis correct. he is a selfish git who has had his own way for too long. He also is accusing you (and the worst he can do is dredge up stuff from 24 years ago which is inaccurate anyway) which is a clear sign of his own guilty conscience - "see? I'm only doing what you did to me, all those years ago," which is probably one way he justifies his constant cheating on you. I strongly suspect this is his way of life - it's not sex, she only 'took care" of me - yeah, right. So how many others have "taken care" of him?

He has had a lifetime of rationalising as a means to justify doing exactly what he wants to do.

You have to choose - can you accept his lifestyle? Or would you prefer nobody, to this bloke who will continue to find someone to 'take care of' him - only next time, he won't admit to it even if you catch him in the act.

And of course, it's all YOUR fault for having standards...

Tell your father, at least a modified version. Say, "We're having a few problems at the moment, we're talking things through and keeping our distances." No need for details unless you feel it's warranted.

And if the creep gets upset because you told your father - his absence and behaviour requires explanation, he's forcing your hand in this so he can later accuse you of making him look bad.

You owe him nothing, no apology, no trust. He's broken it all - HE has.

I did say before - this, for him, is about sex, it's nothing to do (in his mind) with staying faithful. Simply having sex with someone else is not being unfaithful, in his mind.

However, browbeating you into apologising for something which is his fault - THAT definitely qualifies as disrespect and lacking fidelity, in my book. Even by his standards.

Marg
 

DazedandConfused

Well-Known Member
Well, I'll offer you this old cliche, "Nobody can make you feel guilty without your permission".

Or how about this: GUILT is NOT an option!

I find him pulling something that happened over twenty years ago in your marriage out of his hat as rather amusing and desperate. Unwillingness to be accountable for his actions is something that I know I could never get past.

What a mess. I'm so sorry.

Stand tough.
 

nvts

Active Member
Hi! Well, he's in a panic for sure.

About 24 years ago: you didn't have sex, you questioned how the marriage was going, you moved out, went to couciling, reconciled, moved back in.

What can he throw in your face? The fact that even at 20 you handled it according to the rules? That you stepped up when you had concerns and handled it accordingly?

See, he screwed up: He told your best friend that he could never forgive you if the roles were reversed and YOU cheated on HIM. NOW he's claiming that 24 years ago, you cheated.

Let's say it together: "Grasping at straws"! Good!

I agree with everyone though about not getting too informational with the children. What most people forget in these situations (when they do end up bad mouthing their spouse) is that the child is 50% you and 50% him. So when you bad mouth the other, you're telling them that they're 50% flawed. (One of my best friends told me she felt that way as a kid when her parents got divorced).

Stay strong!

We're all here for you!


Beth
 
F

flutterbee

Guest
He doesn't consider what happened to be sex for HIM, but I'm sure he would consider it sex if the roles were reversed. And as far as something that happened 24 years ago, he's comparing apples to oranges...and badly.

Blame the victim. That's what he's doing. He screwed up and he's not even man enough to accept responsibility for it.
 

donna723

Well-Known Member
See! Told you, didn't I! - He's TAP DANCIN'! :dance:

Men are sooo predictable about these things! They all use the very same excuses and the very same tactics! And nobody ever believes them! I swear ... I think when they're in high school they must call them all in for secret "guy" classes, show movies and pass out little handbooks! "If she catches you and she says <u>this</u>, then you counter with <u>this</u>!"
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: <span style='font-size: 8pt'>(class of 1982)</span>

"...It did not take long for him to become the victim here." ... That's what they do! They desperately try to level the playing field - make something you do (or did) sound as bad if not worse than what they did, even if it sounds ridiculous to everyone else! My ex used to equate <u>my</u> occasional disapproving facial expressions with <u>his</u> cheating, drinking, lying, cruelty and abusiveness! Made sense to HIM only! One HUGE indicator of infidelity is when the one who's doing it starts accusing the one who's not of doing it too! Even if they know they're not! Does that make sense? He's grasping at straws and trying to put you on the defensive ... he's desperately trying to convince himself that you're as bad as he is so he doesn't have to feel guilty anymore! He's "fishing"! He's trying to find something that he can blow out of proportion and use against you. They HATE feeling guilty and will go to any lengths to convince themselves that it's not their fauilt!

" ... These are the things he does that make me feel guilty and start thinking I have done something to cause this and end up staying" ... they do this too! They try desperately to "muddy the waters", keep you on the defensive, keep you off balance, confused, and trying to make sense of it all. Rise above it, and don't fall for it!

" ... she took care of him if you know what I mean????? He doesn't consider this sex." ... Uh ... Your real name isn't "Hillary" by any chance, is it?

:flower: I'm not trying to make light of your situation. I'm really not. I've been there myself and I know how much it hurts. And I just can't imagine having to contend with all this B.S. at a time when you're already so vulnerable and going through so much pain. If it's at all possible, try rise above his pathetic silliness and don't let yourself be drawn in to it. Try to emotionally remove yourself from the situation and look at it the way someone else who wasn't in the middle of it would. I think you've done a wonderful job of holding it together so far ... much better than I would have!
 

Steely

Active Member
Hmphhhh........find it hard to believe this gem of yours had an affair - with - someone "who doesn't like sex."??? Liar!!!! Monica Lewisnky or not, I know of, uhhh, about zero men who have an affair other than for the S.E.X.
He is so full of doo doo!!!!
He is trying to get you coming and going! :nonono:

Stay strong girl.
Stay the course.
Stay strong.
Don't look back.
Stay strong.
Believe in yourself.
Stay strong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come read our posts every time you start to feel the guilt, the caving, and the confusion come on.
 

KFld

New Member
I can tell you it wasn't for the sex, it was someone to hold his hand and make him feel all warm and fuzzy 24/7. He'll admit the sex was never lacking but he never missed an opportunity to make me feel inadequate because I don't need someone to make me feel warm and fuzzy 24/7. I can do that for myself.

He got everything else but that from me and will tell anyone that. He felt I gave him 9 out of 10, but I guess he just couldn't do without the 10, so he needed to go somewhere else for it.

It's funny because we have some friends who are lesbians and we were out like a week ago and this one friend was talking about her ex-girlfriend who she was just telling me was so needy and insecure yada yada yada and two minutes later my husband is standing there saying how much the two of them are alike. D, we will call her looked at him and said, what insecure and needy??? Of course husband said oh no, we just have a lot in common. The one he has so much in common with, we will call her P, well this is who he is now hanging with because she understands exactly how he feels. OMG!!!!!!! She is his new best friend because she understands him.
 

Sunlight

Active Member
I love the advice you have been given. remember we do not cause others to sin. they choose it themselves. after all he did not ask you if he thought he should have an affair, did he? he made this choice on his own.

not your fault no matter what.
 

donna723

Well-Known Member

So, you are saying ... "He felt I gave him 9 out of 10, but I guess he just couldn't do without the 10, so he needed to go somewhere else for it." You weren't some unattainable "perfect", so he felt justified in finding companionship somewhere else? Bull hockey!

Let me ask you this! Did HE fulfill YOUR "10 out of 10"? Was HE "perfect"? Did he even try? Was he at all concerned with YOUR needs or how YOU felt or what YOU were going through? Was he at all concerned with what disgusting DISEASES he could be bringing home to you! Heck no! HE was out having his "ego" stroked by some other woman who is flattering him and telling him exactly what he wants to hear! With this kind, it all about ME! ME! ME!
:thumbsdown:
Don't even consider allowing him to make you feel guilty or "inadequate" in any way! You have done NOTHING wrong! HE should be so ashamed of his selfish, irresponsible actions (and his timing!) that he should be cowering in a corner with a bag over his head! If "counseling" doesn't genuinely open his eyes and cause him to honestly mend his ways, I recommend that you do what Dr. Phil says ... "Kick his :censored2: to the curb", then get on with the rest of your life with a clear conscience knowing that YOU did everything you could.
 

'Chelle

Active Member
Sorry for all you've been going through the last while. {{{HUGS}}}

He also said he believes I have just been unhappy in our marriage and I'm using this as an excuse to get out of it. This statement really made me frosty, this is so illogical. So what? If you are unhappy and things don't change even though you've tried for years to make it work, he shouldn't expect you to remain in a marriage that is making you unhappy. Does he truely expect you to stay and be unhappy just so he can feel not guilty over what he's done and HE'S happy. You need to do what is best for you and makes you happy. Because of what's happened you need to stop thinking about him and his needs and think only of what you need and what will make you happy for the future.
 

donna723

Well-Known Member
And I'll tell you something else ... (I'm on a roll here :grin:) -

I've always heard that a WOMAN will stay in a bad relationship until it becomes completely intolerable. But a MAN will stay in a bad relationship until HE HAS SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GO!

Most men, especially if they've been married a long time, really like and get used to the "fringe benefits" of being married. They LIKE being at home where they're comfortable and settled in, where their kids are. They LIKE having dinner made for them every night and they LIKE having somebody do their laundry and keep the house clean. And they LIKE the economic advantages of living in the same house with their wife - only one set of bills to pay. If they have affairs, they rationalize their reasons until they convince themselves that they're justified and "entitled" - but they don't want to give up the cushy thing they've got going on at home either! They want BOTH, and they don't want the good thing they've got going on disrupted! Most of them figure that they're waaaay too slick and waaay too clever to get caught - then when they DO get caught, they panic! They're thinking, "What will happen to <u>ME</u>?" "Where will <u>I</u> go?" So they get all defensive, they try to minimize the situation, start shifting the blame, making accusations of their own ...

You can tell I've been through all this before, can't you!
 
F

flutterbee

Guest
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donna723</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always heard that a WOMAN will stay in a bad relationship until it becomes completely intolerable. But a MAN will stay in a bad relationship until HE HAS SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GO!</div></div>

Amen.
 

PonyGirl

Warrior Parent
Oh Karen, your words are bringing up bad memories for me!

Your story is so similar to mine! My DEX cheated for years with multiple women but I never knew. When I did catch him I believed the excuses he made at first. But then he continued the affair so I threw him out.

And he made it out to be my fault. Said he didn't get enough physical love from me. Brought up an affair I did have, which by then was 8 years previous & prior to me getting Clean & Sober.

He even made the exact same statement: "You've been unhappy and you're just using this as an excuse to divorce me."

Of course now I look back on it, that's the best thing that ever could've happened, me unloading that guy.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! It will get better, hang in there. There's no way I could've gone thru this right after losing my mother. God, Karen, I'm so sorry.
:flower:
Peace
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Karen,

I (by comoparison) was in a hideously abusive marriage for 13 years. At 10 years he planned this entire renewing vows without me. He even involved our son in it and told him his role was the most important - he was the ring bearer. The reason he did it without me is because he figured if I knew I would say no and stop the plans. What he didn't count on was the fact that I said no anyway the day before the whole thing went down. My son was pre-programmed to belive I was the devil if I didn't go through with it, was told that if I didn't it meant that he was never wanted in our marriage, and a bunch of other crap you would not believe if I wrote it down.

I think it was at that moment that I had the first "For myself" thought in 10 years. Everything else in my marriage revolved around him, his addiction, his affairs, his drinking, his recovery, his wanting to be a better person, never to do drugs again, never to have another affair, never to take another drink which was the beginning of it all. His mantra "If you weren't like you were I would never drink, and YOU KNOW that when I drink I go looking for drugs and when I get drugs I seem to attract 'those' kinds of women and then I just don't want to come home for 2 weeks because I feel guilty then I come home, you are upset and I beat the hell out of you." But in the mean time YOU Star, take care of the house, the child, the bills, the world..I heard it over and over for 10 years. I stuck it out another 3 years and probably COULD have salvaged my marriage if even one time he stuck to anything he promised. But he never did.

In my head at 10 years? I was already gone, the love didn't exist unless I initiated it. The sex did, but that's not necessarily love. I sought counseling and hid it from my x. He would have flipped so I told him I needed a night out to drink. Counseling he did not understand. THAT was ME telling the world our problems. But lying and saying I needed a night in a bar drinking? Ok. The counseling was bad. At one point I KNEW the counselor wasn't paying attention to me so i said dumb outrageous stuff like. And then the monkey climed the flag pole and ate oreos. And she would nod and I said "You know?" and she would say "Of course. So I got another counselor (after I told the other counselors boss how intent she had been for 3 weeks) and this one paid attention and didn't say "AND HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?" (believe me I had a standard answer it was It makes me feel like GOLD)

In therapy I started to find the reasons WHY I felt it was acceptable in my life to settle for the behavior that I had once found appealing in my x. I discovered that a lot of it was from childhood, from being adopted, from self worth. I had a ton of self-confidence, but it's not the same as self-worth. I gathered up the courage to formulate a plan with the local battered womens shelter and belive me - battered isn't just hit, or pushed or punched or worse. It's exactly what YOU are going through too. Emotional and verbal abuse. I learned that I wasn't my husbands baby sitter, or problem fixer. I learned that his problems were huge and at his age unless he had an epiphany there wasn't much hope.

I thought...well stick it out. Ask for him to go to counseling. And he agreed. I was floored. But he was manipulative and sneaky and managed to get our son out of the home and to his mom. SHE was the original manipulator. With my son gone I was convinced by both there would be time to go to counseling and heal. I thought we were on the mend. He was planning to leave now that his mom had my son. And he did. I finally left my home, job, and went to join him 1000 miles away only to pull up in my Uhaul with car trailer in time to see a girl leaving the house. From there I put the rest of MY plan into action.

I asked for a divorce and left without my son and nothing. I was put out on the freeway literally - he drove me part way to the bus station stopped the car and opened the door and screamed for me to get out - with no money. I figured it HAD to be better than living with him. So I got out.

It was months before I got my son back. In the mean time the things (all of them) that he used to do to me, he did to our son. My son is now 17 and very angry, hurt and disabled. We've both been in counseling for years due to what this man did.

However - the bright side to it all, was the through continued counseling I found my way, I found myself, and I'm not a bad person. I'm rather nice, have a giving heart, and I'm okay. I stayed for my son (WHAT an excuse) My son would have been better off if I had left and stayed gone on affair #??. He was an infant. The day I left the hospital with him? My x was with his 'woman'. She was WILD. She was ALL the things I'm not. And thank God for that.

I still have flashbacks....nightmares and the like, but the thing that I can't EVER get over is this:

I wasted 13 years of my life. I'm now 40ish and I ask myself daily WHAT IS YOUR LIFE WORTH? How is your health? Are you happy. Do you want to keep making the same poor choices that are insane or do you want to learn HOW to make choices that enrich your life and make Y-O-U happy. I chose to make me happy and in turn I found a few years later a man that said the sexiest thing about me was my brain. I'm a thinker, I've got my head on fairly straight, I don't make bad decisions for me based on what the rest of the world needs, because the world will go on. There is only ONE me. And Karen, there is only ONE you.

I did what I did, and despite my son's antics, I'm happier and I'm sure I'm living a better life for myself. My son will go on to have HIS OWN TIME to have a family, children and make his own decisions. He ended up with a fantastic and loving step Father that for the last 10 years has SHOWN him HOW to treat a woman.
For that I'm greatful.

Don't base your decisions on what your daughter says. Your husband did not harm her she'll always be daddies girl. But how is what he's doing affecting YOU? Your daughter will move on, grow up...have a life of her own to do with as she pleases.

Figure you are how old? How long do you expect to live? What are you going to do with the years left? Listen to excuses, baby sit an alcolhic with an itch for manipulating you into thinking he HAD to find another woman? If you want...so be it.

If you don't. You have some tough decisions to make. AFter all it IS your life. What are you going to do with the rest of it?

Huge Hugs and understanding. and I am in NO WAY making decisions for you. It's not MY life. I just told you what happened in my life.

ps. I've been out of my marriage for years and I found out recently that my x has beaten EVERY woman he's been with and crippled for life the boyfriend one of his x girlfriends was with because if she wasnt' going to be with him she wasn't going to be with anyone. He's also gotten worse on drugs, alcolhol, has no home, no job, no license and no job. He's 53. He has no future. I pray for him - it's all I can do. I pray mostly I can forgive what he's done to my son.
 

skeeter

New Member
Karen - this board won't let me write what I really WANT to write, it would just put a lot of ******** there.

But - repeat after me:

I DID NOTHING WRONG
I DID NOTHING REMOTELY IMPROPER
I DID NOTHING BUT LIVE MY LIFE

And say that over and over.

As far as telling your dad or the kid(s) - tell them to ask HIM.

Sorry, but he's getting no sympathy from me. Even if I had any to give him before (which I didn't) trying to put the blame on YOU now, looses it all for him.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Karen, there has been a lot of feedback here, all of it remarkably consistent. You asked for feedback - can you accept what it is telling you?

I know it is hard right now, with all the emotional blackmail (= emotional abuse!) he is dumping on you.

Maybe if he was contrite, prepared to accept some responsibility and put effort into trying again, it might be worth considering keeping him (although I would wonder why - other than wanting the old, worn-out comfortable shoes rather than the new Jimmy Choos which pinch a bit).

But he is promising you more of the same double standards, the same dishonesty, the same manipulations, the same emotional abuse.

I was watching Oprah the other week (remember, daytime TV in Australia is limited, Oprah is just about the only daytime show with any cerebral content - tragic) and Oprah was interviewing a woman whose son had been made to film her being abused. The story this woman told is horribly familiar - she was always pleased inside because at least her husband never hit her. For years, she was bullied, verbally degraded, made to feel like everything wrong was her fault (probably including the weather) but at least he never hit her, so it wasn't abuse.
Then he began to hit her. In front of the kids. You think your kids are totally oblivious to any of this? Even if they don't witness your arguments, they witness the fallout from them - the silent treatment, your body language, him going out to get drunk - it sends the kids some very nasty messages. It teaches sons that this is how you behave in a relationship, towards your women - it teaches girls to stick it out no matter what, and that the woman always deserves it because the man said so.

The most important message which came out of this show - you need to PLAN your exit. If you think HE is going to be the one to leave - you can't count on it, he sounds very comfortable to stay, he's given you fair warning that he wants you caring for him at home, and he will do whatever he wants concerning sex. And if he also looks elsewhere for the ego-stroking and approval you can't give him, that also is infidelity.
And it IS about sex - because for a lot of guys like this, their sense of self is bound up with their sexuality. OK, he may be talking to her, confiding in her, feeling good because she says how much he deserves something better (ie her) but she is also a victim, because it all comes down to - him getting his rocks off. And getting his ego stroked. All he's looking for is a doormat. The women he is picking up/attracting are getting "I am available" signals from him, and his implied promises (by confiding in them) that this is about something more.

I still say he did not break up with this other woman - he simply told her that everything he had led her to believe (his availability) was simply not true, and she walked out. I lay bets on it. Otherwise, why would she let him go? He surely had said nothing she shouldn't have already known; most women willing to settle to be a mistress would simply say, "I'm here for you, I'll wait for you to call me."

Guys give love to get sex. Women give sex to get love. Men and women tend to stay together to at least begin to raise the children, to give their genes enough of a head start in the next generation to ensure they have successfully procreated. But men are programmed to have multiple partners, while women are programmed to look for security and stability to help raise the kids.
As a result, men and women tend to have different viewpoints, different standards. Yes, there are men out there who are much more scrupulous when it comes to sexual temptation (I'm married to one) but from other men I've encountered, they are rare. Even men whose wives think they are 100% faithful, I've known more about than I care to. And look around - a lot of marriages break up when the kids are fairly self-sufficient. The last kid finally leaves home and the husband heaves a sigh of relief and walks out. "My work here is done - time to go play." Some leave a bit earlier, but fewer leave while the kids are pre-teen, unless they leave when they're babies because they simply CAN'T stick it out as parents, in any practical sense.

Women talk to each other. Men who feel threatened by this will try to isolate their women to prevent this.

So make up your mind what you want form this man, then plan to get what you want DESPITE him. Plan your exit. Ensure you have escape money (to pay the bills, which will be higher to start with, to help you over the gap you will find until you settle down again).
If your exit involves him leaving and you staying, you still need to plan it. You will need to have locks changed, joint accounts frozen (do this one fast, do not tell him - alternatively, remove half before he removes all). Rents/mortgages paid, utilities paid (or covered) food paid (or catered for).

If you force him to leave he will still be blaming you. Be prepared for at least some of your friends and family to be critical of you. Do not even attempt to justify your position - simply say, "This is between me and my husband, or should be. There are always two sides, please recognise this. I had hoped you would be there perhaps for both of us, rather than taking his side without knowing the whole story."
Then walk away. The best way to convince these people is to simply wait until this darling man burns these friends as he's burned you (and probably many of his previous mistresses).

Get legal advice, quietly. Find out where you stand in your particular situation. Can he force you out of the house? Can he get custody? Can you do either of those things? Copy all relevant documents, insurance papers, ID, ownership papers.
Find out how far you can go legally, quietly, then when you have your plans ready, move.

It might take a day. It might take a week. Any bags you pack, keep them away from the house. Keep your document copies away from the house too. Even if you're planning on being the one to stay. You just don't know what is going to happen.

In the case of the woman whose husband made her son film him beating her, she did not leave immediately. But she knew it had to be soon because he was getting out of control and was going to eventually kill her if she stayed and this continued. So she planned. A co-worker helped, they set up a code word.

Interestingly, this battered woman's husband also would ring her at work to see how her day was going. She had to ring him when she left work and when she arrived where she was going (usually home). Every minute had to be accounted for. But it all began with him calling her at work to see how her day was going. Sometimes extreme control can seem like loving concern, in the beginning.

I'm worried for you. I don't think he is going to hit you - he doesn't need to, he's using words very effectively and he is still doing what he wants, he doesn't need to beat you to get anything more. Yet. But it's what this is doing to you emotionally that has me deeply concerned, as well as what it is doing to your daughter, in terms of the hidden signals she is getting, about how she must live her life.

Give her a profound example.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Marg
 
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