Offer Has Been Made

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Hound dog, Dec 2, 2010.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Katie has done nothing but lament about how the grands are utterly miserable in the shelter, how they are constantly crying and asking to return to grandma and grandpa's, how their behavior there is so out of control, that they demand to know why they have to live in the shelter, why their parents don't have jobs, why they don't have a place to live, why they won't be having an xmas........The children's belongings are being stolen. (I don't believe that but whatever) Evan contracted ringworm and I know lice must have been an issue as M and the boys came to us on Thanksgiving with their heads shaved........there was no cash for haircuts. All the while Katie complains how utterly horrible their suffering makes her feel.

    During her last email in which she not only indulged yet again in self pity but actually took a nose dive off the deep end into it........... Well I attempted 3 times to respond to the email. I wound up waiting at least a day to respond. I did my utter best to ignore her whining and complaining and the poor pity lil ol me routine..........

    Then my gut said to make the offer for the grands to stay here until they found jobs and a place to live.

    So while I used all my powers of make nicey nicey and such talking about xmas plans ect I happened to slip in that if the grands continue to have such a hard time adjusting to shelter life and it looks like they will be there a while, the grands.........and ONLY the grands.......can come here to stay until they get their acts together. I explained I can't take on all 5 of them but I could manage the children. I didn't say how I could do this, just that I could.

    I hit the send button before I had a chance to change my mind. This whole deal has been handled by listening to my gut instinct.

    After that I started a journal to record Katie's activities/behavior and things occuring/not occuring with the kids while they have been here. I meant to start this a long time ago, but couldn't seem to find the time. When making a report at cps here at least, they want dates and times and details.......and we all know my memory is not what it was even a few years ago. Keeping a journal will help me recall things when the pressure is on. A mistake I made the first time around when I had to attempt to go back over an 18 month period of time and recall all the ways Katie abused and neglected the kids. ugh (and I had an awesome memory in those days)

    While doing brain was working on another tangent. I don't know about other people but I tend to do this. lol This was because I have no way of knowing if such an offer will cause Katie to run.

    So I'm typing and thinking. Typing up what has happened makes me think of more things...

    What are Katie's motivations? That kept popping into my head. Last time I suspected it was to dump Kayla........or rather force my hand to assume custody of Kayla thereby she is the victim and I am the big bad step mom and she still does not have a child she has to care for that she never wanted nor bonded with. While I suspected it strongly......I had trouble accepting it. It is a truly unsettling thought to someone with as strong a maternal instinct as I have. I won't go into details because it's long and rather involved but I witnessed enough physical abuse and neglect during the months before Alex's birth that I had to move the then infant Kayla into mine and husband's room to protect her from her mother during the nights. I had refused to care for Alex for a period of time after his birth hoping she would bond with him. Instead I got phone calls that made no sense, would impossible for an infant so young to have done to himself, and if the injuries were happening, he had to be being physically abused. Again I couldn't shake the feeling that she actually wanted me to take custody of the kids. Otherwise why on earth would you call the very woman who had already reported you to cps twice since you had arrived and had an arrangement with the grands pediatrician doctor that she would contact you if there was any evidence of abuse or tell you that newborn Alex jumped out of the infant swing, fell out of the infant swing, rolled off the bed, and if that wasn't enough there were the phone calls she dropped him. The injury every time was always the head. (this is when I yet again made a report to cps......needed to do the 18 month of background........and cps decided not to take it seriously probably because by that point I already had the kids 12 hrs a day while she was supposed to be working which she wasn't)

    Not long after that M moved back in with her. Phone calls about Alex stopped. Either he told her to stop making them, because I doubt the abuse stopped, or whatever. The neglect continued until she took off with M and ran back to Mo. to what we now know was to mooch off her biomom.

    So with that in my head I think to myself what are her motivations this time? Katie was told there were scant few jobs to be found in the area due to extremely high unemployment rates. She was told the shelters were over crowded due to people losing their homes ect. She was told in no uncertain terms that they would NOT be allowed to live with any member of the family repeatedly.

    So her motivation to move here with no income, no place to go, and no cash would be what?

    1. Finding a job and a place to live.

    Please I'm sure we're all certain by now that this was not nor is not her motivation or M's.

    2. Mooching and living off family

    Katie is not as stupid as she lets on. She is manipulative as hades given half the chance. The only person she has never been able to be manipulative with is me because I see right through it every time. She knows this as well. So she knew in no uncertain terms she would never be allowed to stay long term with her dad and I. She also knows me well enough to know that not even the grands would be able to guilt me into changing my mind once it was set.

    3. Dumping the kids on us.

    Since 1 and 2 are not it that leaves good ol' number 3. Actually not a surprise. My gut told me that was what she was working toward with her sudden unexpected reunification two and a half years ago. Many of you saw the warning signs as well. So we can't just dismiss it as wishful thinking or Hound dog paranoia.

    I continue to type and think. How is she to get a way with such a thing when she knows I will not let them stay here? If the kids did come to stay here, still how would she manage it? She has no cash, is obviously not looking for work to make any. Her biomom is broke and living with a friend. And biomom would have to be dealt with if Katie returned with no kids. How would she explain it?

    As I'm typing M's voice pops into my head that he is a pro at hitchhiking. It dawns on me that you can't hitchhike well with 3 kids in tow. Five people are a lot to pick up for a ride. If the kids were here there wouldn't be that problem. So transportation figured out, where would they go? If they returned to Mo they would have to explain to biomom and most likely cps where their children are. Katie always (since the age of 3 people I'm not kidding) has had to be the victim. So what better way to be rid of the kids and place the blame on husband and I for taking them from her by taking advantage of their joblessness and homelessness? Plausible excuse.

    husband and I get to be the bad guys. Katie gets what she wants and gets to be the victim yet again.

    The scenario that played out in my head clicked so well I got cold chills down my spine.

    So then I had to consider M in all of this. Because while the kids are a burden, he also clearly sees them as his meal ticket. He is too stupid to realize that people no longer pity them due to the children. They see how old Kayla and Alex are and any sympathy they have vanish because they should have their act together already they have been parents for 10 yrs. He may have other reasons that I'd rather not only not think about as it makes me violently ill. Still, I have my doubts if this is the plan, he has any clue about this part. He might, but his attitude with the meal ticket thing causes me to wonder.

    Also the last time Katie came here I know for certain he was not in on any plan to dump the kids. Not but a couple of weeks after Katie arrived I received a phone call from biomom who was hysterical because M had just paid her a visit and he was distraught with worry over Kayla. (not Katie, Kayla) The man is no actor, I don't think he could act if his life depended on it. But he kept asking where Katie was because he was terrified for Kayla. Now biomom had not seen Katie since she was 7 months preg with Kayla when she tried to get Katie to leave M, she had not even known the sex of her grandchild. Biomom demanded he explain what had happened and he told her that Katie had disappeared with the baby and that he was terrified for Kayla as he was the only one who cared for her, Katie refused to have anything to do with the baby at all and she was addicted to meth. Now I'd heard some horror stories about M around that time......but I had to tell biomom that what he said rang true as Katie showed zero interest in Kayla, fed her only when told to do so.......and didn't seem to have a clue what she was doing yet Kayla was 4 months old!

    My theory is Katie came here 10 yrs ago to rid herself of the child she never wanted. To minimize the guilt of such an act, and because she has a serious love/hate relationship with biomom, she wanted me to take Kayla while she played victim and could resume her life. Then it was confirmed she was pregnant with Alex and that put a hitch into her plans as she couldn't even consider abortion at that point in the pregnancy. She couldn't/wouldn't go to biomom. She didn't want to return at that time to M. She had no where to go so she simply stayed......and figured she'd get me to take the new baby too. But M showed up not long after biomom called me because she has a big mouth and told him Katie was safe at her dad's house. Over the months prior to Alex's birth he attempted to get back together with her.

    Now this is where it gets a bit twisted so bear with me. I don't believe Katie ever intended to leave M permanently the first time around. I think Kayla cramped her relationship with M and her fun with whatever drugs she was taking and she fully intended to dump her. Because M saw the baby as a big fat meal ticket, he wouldn't allow such a thing to take place. So she left him behind. I think she knew she was pregnant when she came here but was playing the denial card up until I forced her to go to the doctor. (because I knew she was pregnant) M showed up and complicated the plan even further as he was doing everything he could think of to get her to come back to him and she had to keep their meetings secret in order to keep up the pretense she had left him behind to us. I think when Alex was 2 1/2-3 mos old he finally wore her down. I know from neighbors this is when he actually moved into the apartment with her.

    My guess is that he convinced her, and unfortunately since the state of ohio was bending over backward to help her at the time flooding her with all sorts of services, that as long as they had the kids they were home free. So as soon as they scraped, borrowed, or stole enough cash they up and vanished back to Mo. What neither of them realized is that the vast majority of services she was receiving are not available in Mo, are available here because we are considered part of the Appalachians and get extra govt programs due to it. So it didn't quite work out the way M planned. However once M re-entered the picture, Katie put an ace in her pocket by suddenly re-uniting with biomom. The moment she did that I knew the plan was to return to Mo. Nine months later she proved me right.

    Telling me non stop how much the kids are suffering in the shelter and how they are begging to return to my house she knows is useless if it is an attempt for all 5 of them to be here. It will never happen. She knows it. I know it. She had her chance during that week they were broke and M couldn't keep up the act and blew it the moment money entered the picture. Katie knows I can't tolerate mooching from anyone (charity during hard time is one thing, mooching is a whole other matter) including family. This is why she lied to me over her mother living with them and supporting them over the past 5 yrs. So what is the guilt for then? To make me feel bad enough for Kayla and Alex to ask for them to stay here. It is the only thing that make sense. Because she's been sending me this **** for 2 wks and for 2 wks I've made not so much of a hint they can return as a family. The idiot that M is, even he would be able to see in that amount of time if that was the goal it was not working.

    Sigh. So there it the risk of me sounding more than a bit paranoid. lol You would think that after suspecting this as Katie's motivation for 10 yrs that it would no longer hurt. But I find to even suspect that she is capable of throwing her children away like so much garbage hurts on such a deep level that I can't find words for it. Instinct and her actions for years have indicated this was most likely the plan and still I found it so hard to accept that I tried to push it out of my mind or making excuses that I was reading much more into her actions or just plain being paranoid. You would think after my own childhood I would know better than most that such things are not only possible they happen everyday, still there is the desire to believe, a very strong desire to believe, I'm reading more into it than what is there. Yet the part of myself that tells me right from wrong tells me that I've hit the nail on the head.

    Do I think it will be all 3 kids? Maybe. But after reading her mails from the shelter ect I don't think so. I think she intends on dumping the older two and leaving with Evan. Evan she is not really complaining about it is Kayla and Alex, even to the point of blaming the older two for causing Evan to misbehave. Either they believe Evan is still young enough to be a meal ticket that doesn't badger them with uncomfortable accusations/questions while telling school staff ect enough to get them into trouble with cps.......or they actually have some sort of warped bond with him and don't want to leave him behind. M for whatever reason seems closely attached to Evan and vice versa. And as I said before, M may not be in on the plan to dump the kids. If Katie is being honest about his inability to read she can tell him whatever she wants and he will believe her. Then she can play broken-hearted victim and they can go running to wherever it is they plan to try their hard luck case on next.

    And it doesn't take a genius to figure out shelter spots for 3 are far easier to get than shelter spots for 5, same for getting people to give you rides and let you stay with them.

    Biomom told me 10 yrs ago that she strongly believed that Katie was schizophrenic, as was biomom's mother who passed away in a mental hospital for the criminally insane while Katie was in high school. She believed Katie to be as severely mentally ill as her mother had been, had recognized cold calculated behaviors in Katie that she had seen in her mother. Biomom begged me then to take the grands if I ever got the chance. That had a major impact on me then, it still does today. I've seen many of the behaviors myself then and I've caught glimpses of her stepping over the point of maintaining now. Biomom didn't say, but I believe she attempted to get Katie to seek help, I think this is why they were estranged the first time she came here. If it is even so much as hinted that Katie should see either a therapist or psychiatrist she goes ballistic, seriously, so much so I don't broach the subject with her. The insane never believe they are insane. Most likely the street/OTC medications are to self medicate. Unfortunately it explains many behaviors that are otherwise unexplainable..........and heaven above knows I've had a lifetime of experience with schizophrenia.

    So that is what I believe the plan to be. That is what my gut tells me it is. M may or may not be party to it. I've seen enough of their behavior together to suspect M's role is mainly that of Katie's lapdog anyway. He is too dependent on her to put up any real objection to anything she does or does not want to do.

    I could be wrong I suppose. After what the grands have lived through over the past years......I actually hope I have hit the nail on the head as it will make it all the easier to gain custody of them and remove them from a life of hades. The refusal to allow Evan even to sleep over was a(either conscious or subconscious) warning he is not part of the bargain. If they run once the grands are here, I won't be able to do much to get him, yet I can't really force them to allow him to stay either.

    Before I refused to play the game according to her rules. Kayla and Alex have suffered for 8 yrs because I refused to be the bad guy and an additional child also became a victim. The game is in play once again and the ball is now in her court as I gave her the invitation for the kids to stay here with us.

    Due to Katie's need for drama and to play the victim role she may need to be asked multiple times before taking the offer.

    A mother who cares for the welfare of her children would jump at such an invitation given the circumstances. A woman with a plan will run as soon as the opportunity arises once the children are in place.

    Dear God I hope I did the right thing. I pray I didn't act too soon and she runs. :(
  2. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Whew. I think you did do the right thing here, for what it's worth. I hope Katie takes you up on it. The entire situation is just so heartbreaking.
  3. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    Your gut told you it was time and you acted. You did the right thing.
  4. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I hope for everyone's sake she sends all the kids to you hon.
  5. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    Hope she takes you up on the offer, Lisa. Many hugs.
  6. Star*

    Star* call 911


    I think I would make it an all or nothing deal for the grands. Stand your ground and don't let them separate or pick and choose a child, that child, these two children. I can see the logic in Katies choices or her twisted logic rather from the point of a schizophreic mind it's very solid. WE have needs, and without a child - our plea to people won't be as strong. We "get" more with a kid, our barganing chip is gone? It's just two middle aged people panhandling - not parents with a needy child. And then you have to factor in the foodstamps issue. With a kid here? It's an extra $200 a month, without them? It's nothing. With them? It's Medicaid - without him? it's no insurance. WITH them? It's toys for tots and extra food bank issue and clothes and money for utilities at churches and places like that - and you can also figure that she will have their SS#'s memorized too.

    I think if you DO do this Hound you need to get it legalized in some way - Guardanship with SS#'s and medical and have her sign temporary custody over to you and husband. SOMETHING that gives you more than the right to decide if they can have medical treatment, and education rights. I also have had a lot of dealing with schizo personalities. However that said - WHY allow Katie the choice? If she is unfit? Find her unfit and go for custody of the kids period. Not just K and A - but K, A and E. The WHY they would want to hang on to E -Not nearly as important as the WHY YOU would need to make sure he has a roof over his head, clothes, food and education more importantly - love and stability and counseling. Not?

    I'm not trying to throw a frisbee in the park or aboomerang - I'm the voice that is saying - THINK NOW about this dog because THIS ONE is going to come back to bite you and the more leg work you do NOW to put up a fence, and do preventative work today - the LESS stress it's going to cause THOSE CHILDREN in the future. This is the type of woman that is selfish and if it isn't HER it's going tobe HIM causing problems - not at first. At first it's going to be AH gma - you're the best, thank you adn then in the middle of the night you're going to get calls, threats, lawyers saying you TOOK thekids from them - you STOLE them out of their arms, you took advantage of them when they were SO Down, SO OUT - that they had no other choice - I REALLY want you to seek an attorney and get the story down in writing here honey before this blows up after they have run and blown their fun time and can't figure out any other way BUT to use the kids again. Because you know it and I know it and everyone else that maybe is thinking it here but would never say it to you knows it - and I'm sorry - to be the one that does stand up and says it - because she IS your daughter and you DO love her, but she is sick - and not well people don't make good decisions and that's why you have friends - like me that are willing to stand here and take a chance that you get mad as hell at me for saying not only what I think - but what I've LIVED through and tell you that it CAN happen - HOPE TO GOODNESS IT DOES NOT - but prepare you for the chance that it could and make you aware -------and tell you - GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW NOW - make it all above board, legal and get yourself counsel on record, NOW - not just what you write down about her - GET A THIRD NON_PARTAISAN party involved. NOW. For your sake, for the kids' sake......and for Katies - because down the road she MAY need all this documented to PROVE that M DID NOTHING - and left it all up to you to help her. See?

    I hope the offer is - we saw an attorney today - and for all our sakes we've documented everything regarding K, A & E - we'll be glad to take them until XX/XX/20XX under these conditions if you XX (our terms). If by XX/XX/20XX these terms are not met by you and M - this and this and this will occur for the good of the children. You won't be able to XX after this date XX/XX/20XX - to protect you, us and them. This is not being signed under durress (or whatever it's called) and have them get a GAL for their sake - even offer to pay for that. However you have to do this to make it legal - DO IT.

    Don't let this bite you in the hiney - Don't let these babys go through getting comfey in YOUR home, settled and finally have a place to live and then have screw loose Daddy and bored and broke Mommy come back in and rip them out of your house on a technicality. Treat this like an adoption or foster care situation. Find out what EVERYONES RIGHTS ARE. Be proactive in this for everyones sake.

    Love you loads - and those kids too -

    (even if I sound like the harbinger of doom right now - I mean this in the best and most positive light) really.
  7. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I'm with Starbie. All or nothing at all, no conditions, end of story, make sure everyone is on the same page.

    That being said... are you sure you weren't set up for this? K has her way of manipulating.
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Starbie I know you have my best interest at heart. I never take offense at your responses. You make certain that all dark areas are exposed......and I do appreciate it as I don't always see all those dark areas.

    I would most definitely seek legal council before I finalized the decision to take the grands. I know it can be done. I know people here have done it. But I've no knowledge about how it is done, so I would cover my fanny and consult a lawyer first. Even just for temporary custody as last thing I or the kids would need is for some emergency to come up, discover some technicality was overlooked which required parental consent........and the parents are no where to be found. Or that like you said they change their minds and suddenly want the kids back after they're done with their fun.

    If Katie takes the offer I believe I could convince her a legal temporary contract would be in her best interests.

    Although it would depend on how long she wants to wallow in drama and drag it out..........because my patience is already stretched pretty thin. I came mighty mighty close to viciously ripping her a new one and telling her exactly what I thought of her in my last response, instead of offering to take the kids.........thank god there is a delete button on the computer.:sigh:

    Dealing with her behavior is bad enough, dealing with his has me biting my tongue constantly while in his presense. I will not be able to tolerate it much longer and be able to keep my mouth shut.

    If I have to be the bad guy, then so be it. But this won't be done at all unless the grands interest are completely protected by law, even if it is on a temporary basis. Otherwise there just isn't any point to it and all it will do in the long run is set those kids up for more heartache and disappointment. By protecting them, I protect myself. So yeah. The lawyer will be a must.

    Thankfully while playing Santa on top of nana this year I skrimped and pinched and did not have to dip into the emergency emergency stash that even husband can not go near as it is locked tightly in easy child's safe. It ought to be enough for a lawyer consult and to have fanny covering paperwork drawn up. (actually husband does not even know this stash exists)

    The wild card in this is most definately M.

    I do prefer to do all or none. While my heart says save those I can........I also know it would be detrimental to Kayla and Alex in the long run to know that while they got a normal life their baby brother got the shaft. And it isn't right for Evan to be stuck with them anymore than it is for Kayla and Alex. I just believe that this is not what Katie has in mind.

    Maybe a glimmer of xmas luck will shine down upon the grands and cps will be called in and remove the kids. Tragic but one can always hope.

    While catching up the journal......I realized they've been here 5 wks. Omg has it been a very long 5 wks.
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    Yeah. I was set up for this. That was the plan. Only I knew it was coming and made the decision that needed to be made long before she arrived.

    If had she not tried it the first time.........I might have fallen for it without knowing to cover my fanny every which way but sunday. But I was on to her before she ever left Springfield for St. Louis.

    I'm not quite sure it's manipulation if the person you're attempting to manipulate knows the plan beforehand.

    If cps had taken custody of the grands in Mo and called here asking if we would take the kids the answer would have been yes. If that call had been 5 yrs ago, the answer would still have been yes. If they call me tomorrow and ask if I will take custody of the grands the answer will be yes.

    If Katie decides she wants to turn the kids over there will be a legal contract that protects us and the grands. If she won't do a contract, then the answer will change.

    But whether it is cps or Katie who decides? The answer will be the same. Because the circumstances that caused that decision to have been made in the first place all those years ago has not changed. They were being abused and neglected then as they are now. Does that make sense?
  10. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    It does. I just know how hard it is, and for you I don't want there to be any doubts or regrets. It's such a burden. A burden of love, I know, but - still... I know how protective of my own quietude I would be.
  11. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Yeah. I fully admit I've been more than a bit irked at times that I may be forced to raise yet another 3 children to adulthood when what I should be doing is just what I want to do at this point in my life. I've enjoyed my empty nest. And with Travis still is basically an empty nest for the most part as he does for himself 99 percent of the time and is no bother.

    Actually I've run through the entire gauntlet of emotions from pure rage to pure grief.

    I know that no one will fault me if I chose to step away from this situation. My other children are grown with children of their own. They are fully informed and would not fault me one moment for deciding not to take the grands regardless of the reason. I know that I do not have to do this. These are not even technically my grandchildren. All of the children have issues, and both Alex and Evan are major difficult children.

    But my sense of right and wrong would never let me live with myself.

    Once many years ago there was a very little girl who was unloved, unwanted, severely abused and neglected. A grandmother took that little girl by the hand and took her home with her. In the grandmother's home the little girl learned of unconditional love, trust, kindness, consideration, patience, safety, stability, and self worth.

    If it turns out that I am meant to do that for the grands, then it is time to pay it forward. Because I love them. And because it is the right thing to do.
  12. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    First off, hugs.

    I've been listening and thinking, since they are physically close to me. And you know what? Gut instinct? YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY 100% CORRECT ON THIS.

    Yes, cover your rear 6 ways from Sunday. But "temporary custody" needs to have strings attached - temporary till... XXX time.

    Also depending, if you are going to need lawyer in this area, PM me. I know several. (One of which is GREAT about his rates, too.)
  13. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    I have no advice to offer...but just wanted to send ((((hugs)))) support and prayers. I think you are doing the right thing!
  14. Star*

    Star* call 911


    Okay good - then I am glad we are where we are. I say what I say out of love for you and for the kids I've never met. That understood - IF you should choose to not take them? That is your choice. HOW ON EARTH anyone could ever fault you for not? Beyond me. No where in the world are they your responsibility - and one child is a huge responsibility. THREE and two of whom are difficult child's? WITH the fact that you know eventually the Mother and Father WILL POP IN AND disrupt their lives? MUST BE A CONSIDERATION for them, for you and their future. This is the absurdity of adoption at some primal level I think. Do the people around the time of giving children up think about these things? They must if they even have a head in their brains. If they aren't able to then I guess people around them that are able to - make these choices FOR them. Seems unfair from a childs view point - especially when things are FROM a childs view point - but it's something you are going to have to consider in all seriousness. WHAT IF - the best thing FOR K, A and E is for CPS to take them and place them in court ordered foster care where K and M can't manipulate them? The question it raises in my mind now (and not knowing the full situation is really unfair to K an M in a way) - but .......IS what KA&E are going through NOW ---could and would it improve their quality of life by NOT being wtih K&M vs. not being with their Mom and Dad - or make it worse by NOT being with their Mom and Dad in the situations they are sure to face because K&M can't seem to get off the pity me wagon at their ages? OR would putting K,A & E In foster care away from K&M have a positive impact on them so much more that it outweighs taking them out of their present situation, away from their natural parents who appear to be looser parents - and allow them a quality of life they otherwise may or will never get? IF they were to be placed AWAY from their parents would K&M work hard to get them back? Or would they take it as another stripe on their backs and use it for more pity?

    See YOU know them - and YOU know the answers to these questions already or mostly --------when you start to connect the dots the puzzle isn't such a puzzle anymore except to factor in WHO gets the kids and then you just have to add in a few more variables -
    IF the people that raise these children AWAY from their parents were young, and allowed nanna to see them once a week like grand parents WOULD they know Nannie and Poppy still loved them like grandparents? Would that be enough?


    If Nannie and Poppie raised these children in their home would the natural parents continually harrass the children, the nannie and poppie, disrupt their lives for personal gain or would they just fade away for good and allow the family to raise and love each other in harmony?

    What do you see happening futuristically?

    Do you see being 60 with teenagers? Do you see being 60ish with teenage boys - possibly K's beoming wild? Do you see making them go to therapy? Problems with the school? Problems with the law? - Something to think about since you JUST did get peace in YOUR life - Peace vs. Chaos with love tugging the other side is a difficult triangulation - not?

    Just something for you to think about from the dark side.....but I'm standing here with a pretty big flashlight - called starlight.....(snort) get it? Star light?
    Oh I slay me.
  15. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    Lisa, I absolutely think you're doing the right thing and I think your suspicions are probably right on too. Maybe they are more bonded with Evan since he's the youngest but it's almost creepy that they seem to be trying to keep him a "baby", to his detriment. And maybe they think that if they still have the youngest one, he will be enough of a meal ticket. The older two are becoming a problem to them now because they're old enough to complain about the lifestyle they have been forced in to, and they know there's something better for them out there. And they're old enough now to accurately relate to you (or CPS) what really goes on in their family. I would think that if they voluntarily turned over the two older children, one call to CPS would result in the younger one coming to you too.

    And it may not turn out as bad as you're thinking. I know they are major difficult child's now but as chaotic as their young lives have been so far, that's almost a given. It wouldn't be easy, but if they are with you, once they are in a stable, loving, secure home and are living a more normal life, you may see HUGE changes in those kids. I know you never planned to be raising a whole new set of kids but it's a wonderful thing you're doing and my hat is of to you, my friend!
  16. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    As you may know my husband and I have raised our grandson (now 23 and an alcoholic plus Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) issues) since birth. GFGmom also lived with us until she got pregnant again by a different short term partner. We had told her all along that we would not take in another baby. She kept that baby with her living a chaotic lifestyle and took the older boy for visitations. Things got worse as time went by and although we still had hope that she would "grow up" we agreed to add her second son to our lives with a Durable Power of Attorney which gave decision making rights to me. The younger boy lived with us for a year, then was reclaimed by his Mom, lived with us for four years, was reclaimed by Mom etc. etc. Subsequently she had a third child by a third partner who was pond scum. We have never babysat her daughter. Finally we drew the line.

    I understand, believe me, what you are living through. It's hard to believe that a child you raised in a loving family could be so off the wall. Sigh! GFGmom would not allow anyone to adopt any of "her" children. Turns out she was collecting child support and later disability payments as we spent our resources raising the boys. The second son is damaged from the yoyo lifestyle. Going back and forth undermines the sense of security and attachment. The older son was derailed just by exposure to her lifestyle which included letting him drink and driving him to get pot etc. when he visited with her.

    Each of us has to make our own decisions. I would not presume to tell you what course to take. on the other hand, I do suggest that you consider an all or nothing at all approach. Your grands have experienced chaos for years. Even visitation can derail the
    loving efforts of providing a healthy environment for children with GFGmom's. We love our grandsons with all our hearts.
    Our easy child children resent that we have had no time for their families. It's a two edged sword for sure. Meanwhile we are in our seventies and still working to make ends meet. The negative influence of GFGmom has undermined the results we anticipated. If we had to do it again we would have tried harder to exclude her from their lives.

    I'm genuinely sorry that you are at the crossroads and I hope and pray that your choices will be best for all. Hugs DDD
  17. katya02

    katya02 Solace

    Lisa, I don't have any answers, just hugs and support. What you're contemplating doing is huge - a huge commitment for you, but a huge benefit for the
    grands. Whatever you finally decide on, and whatever happens (as you say, much depends on M), you've done the right thing in acting on your instinct
    on behalf of the children. Even if Katie planned to manipulate you into taking them, it's still in their best interests. Just protect yourself, as the others have
    said. Best wishes and warm thoughts.
  18. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    I have been following this family tragedy for several months now, and it has literally kept me up at night a few times, to the extent that I've tried to stay away from it at times, but I'm always drawn back the terrible dilemma you're in. Now I'm going to say, as directly as possible, what I've made of all of this and offer you my counsel, but I warn you--it's hard stuff. Not on you--you've been as wonderful and as patient as anyone could hope for, and then some. But here it is:

    Your adult daughter appears to be a sociopath. There's no other explanation for all of this--the heartlessness wrt her own children, you, and many others; the never-ending manipulation and lies and refusal to take responsibility. The ceaseless, endless lifetime parasitism, which will never stop. The disastrous and yet loyal relationship with a man who is similarly grossly stunted and worthless and utterly without merit, and himself a manipulative, dishonest user and parasite. And so on and so on. Her symptomology regarding probable psychopathy seems bottomless to me.

    That said, I know that it is very nearly impossible for a parent to sever ties entirely with a child, even if that child is increasingly and manifestly psychopathic--heartless, dishonest, irresponsible, endlessly inclined toward addictions and parasitism, fatally impulsive and unable to form a life plan, etc etc. I do think, however, that when other children--be they siblings or the difficult child's (an acronym I dislike, by the way, as it so grossly dodges the bullet of the truth in cases like this--but I digress) children--are involved, there comes a time when even a parent must "cut bait" and consider the lives and needs and welfare of the innocents helplessly stranded on the difficult child's grossly dysfunctional island. When that moment of realization comes, a moral responsibility--a mandate--emerges: protect the innocent children from the incorrigibly destructive difficult child. It very much appears that you have arrived at that moment.

    Your daughter may come to her senses and begin living responsibly and sensibly, but it seems very, very unlikely at present, and I think you have to assume that it will never happen. Someone--anyone--needs to get those children away from her, to protect them from her and, so long as she remains unchanged (and given her age, I think she will never change), to vigilantly and emphatically keep them separated from her (inasmuch as the children can bear such separation, and my guess is that you'll be surprised how agreeably they accept such a separation from their utterly catastrophic mother), and to do all that you can to help them build a new and secure and safe and functional family life.

    In short, from what you've told us in these many, many heartbreaking posts over so long a span of time, it appears that it's time to set aside any more indecision or hand-wringing about that hideous woman and instead simply do all you can to safeguard your grandchildren from her.

    More patience and more hope and more delay regarding Katie will not only come to nothing but will simply and knowingly immerse those grandchildren more deeply in Katie's tar-pit of a life.

    You have done nothing to deserve any of this. None of it derives from the way you raised her. It seems obvious to me that Katie clearly and unambiguously has the worst sort of personality disorder, the one that parents fear most: a cognitive wiring problem that renders her incapable of decent behavior and all too inclined toward the sort of hideous behavior that has blighted your life for decades now. As I say, none of this is your fault. But it's clear now that those little ones need help in the worst way, and you know it--and not to act in their behalf, aggressively and emphatically and immediately, will amount to a moral failing if you don't act. Providence, if you like, has put them and their plight in front of you, and you can't turn away or delay further as you wait and hope for Katie to change in a way that she manifestly is not capable of changing.

    Cut Katie loose. I know it's nearly impossible emotionally, but those grandchildren need nothing short of rescue, just as if they were in a burning house. Katie is incredibly toxic and dysfunctional and, frankly, very nearly a monster when it comes to her indifference to their plight. You need to do all you can to step in--and, in fact, it is very nearly a moral mandate at this point. There they are, right in front of you. There is there appalling need, in plain sight. Act. Rescue them. Enough of this absurd concern for or about Katie. She does not merit it; shift it to those children. Rescue them.

    To the others in this forum who will hurl anger at me for my plainspokenness about all of this: is more hand-wringing and "hugs" and all of that doing any good at all? Does it in any way help these incredibly endangered and blighted grandchildren? No. These children are caught in the clasp of an outright sociopath. They need to be rescued--ASAP. They're in a burning house. No more yammering and hugging and all of that--run into that house and get them out.

    Godspeed. I know this is all very hard. Believe me, it is very very hard to "watch" as a reader in this forum. The house is on fire. Get the children out--immediately and forever and without any delay or concern about these hideous adults who prefer to remain in the house as it burns. Get. The. Children. Out.

    God bless. You are much in my thoughts tonight.
  19. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I think the issue at this point isn't so much as getting them out as it is how to get them out in such a way that all can be rescued and not sucked back in or get hit by the flashover. If all the PoO aren't taken into consideration, if all accelerants aren't removed, all hot spots completely extinguished, the children may end up bouncing back and forth, which is also not good. A small delay now to make certain every legal base is covered so the kids can't get pulled back into a nasty situation can pay out great dividends in the long run.
  20. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    The way I see it (and admittedly, knowing none of them first hand) the sticking points appear to be if they will not agree to to give up Evan, even temporarily, and that you still don't know what part M may play in the whole thing. Goofy and worthless as he is, he is still as much of a legal parent to them as Katie is. Is it possible that he might throw a clinker into the works, or is he so dependent on Katie that he will go along with whatever she wants? Do the courts take "goofy and worthless" in to account? He's kind of the loose cannon in all of this.