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Opposition defiant disorder
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 332227" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>I read your other post for a little more info - you initially thought your son might be Aspie but a neuropsychologist evaluation diagnosed ODD.</p><p></p><p>I have a couple of concerns -</p><p></p><p>1) Your son is still only 5 years old. It's difficult to get a diagnosis right at this age so it's always good to keep an open mind, get a broader opinion maybe.</p><p></p><p>2) As others have already said, in most cases (if not all - the jury is still out) an underlying problem will produce the appearance of ODD. Treat the underlying problem and you find the ODD responding.</p><p></p><p>What is ODD? What causes it? </p><p>I find the more I read about psychological/psychiatric 'disorders', the more I feel that labels can be applied to anything, even moon mist. Of course some of these labels are valid, but I'm certain that many are merely the over-psychologisation of what is perhaps a normal response of an individual to an often extraordinary situation. I'm not saying that psychologists or psychiatrists are wrong to use these labels since it gives them a better understanding of the individual. But I think often WE are wrong if we think that a label always indicates a disease process.</p><p></p><p>You've had "The Explosive Child" recommended for you to read - I endorse that. But books are always recommended, you could go broke if you bought everything. I recommend getting a book out of the library or maybe seeing what you can find out about it elsewhere. But this is a book which I bought, and I actually have very few such books on the shelf. Most were given to me, but I went out and bought this one after all the reading on this site told me it would help. And it has.</p><p></p><p>If you want a bit more of a look at this book and what it advises, check out the Early Childhood forum on this site and look at the sticky on "Explosive Child". What the book is saying, basically, is that we need to get into the child's head and see the world through his eyes. We start from there and work back to what we consider acceptable. In autism or Asperger's, people often lack the ability to learn social skills the way other people learn; they CAN l earn, but need a different approach. If your child has anxiety, for example, or lacks some social skills either similar to autism or simply for any other reason, you will find that their responses can seem very "in your face" but the intention is not the same as for a "noral" person being in your face in the same way.</p><p></p><p>Example - difficult child 3's responses when he sees me about to make what he considers a risky mistake. If I pick up a piece of paper with some numbers printed on it that seem meaningless, and I'm about to throw it out - I might get difficult child 3 screaming at me, "Don't be an idiot! That's important! Leave it alone! It's mine!"</p><p>An observer might think, "What a rude child, to speak to his mother like that!"</p><p>A teacher who doesn't know him might say, "Well, just for being so rude, I WILL throw this away!"</p><p>Throwing the paper away after that outburst would trigger a massive rage with probable physical attack.</p><p>It sure looks like ODD and out of control behaviour and raging.</p><p></p><p>Now, let's look at it again from difficult child 3's perspective.</p><p>His mother picks up off the floor a vital piece of paper, it has the only copy of cheat codes for his favourite game. He'd been playing the game earlier and forgotten where he left tat paper, and it was left on the floor. But oh, now! Mum is about to throw it away! It took weeks to get those codes, the game will have to be played form scratch and all those levels he's earned will be lost. MUST stop Mum throwing it away!</p><p>[the panic at this stage is similar to a parent seeing her child running in front of a truck on the highway - and how do WE react when we see that?]</p><p></p><p>If our response to the child's panicked reaction is to follow through, get angry at the rudeness and then throw the paper away anyway - it's similar to a child standing on the road in front of a truck saying to the mother, "I'll only get off the road if you ask me nicely."</p><p>We'd be tearing our hair out and would possibly even run onto the road, grab the child and deliver a sound spanking.</p><p>But turn that around from the child's point of view - to a child who does not see that there was a problem, and whose social skills cannot see a difference in status between an adult or a child (or parent or offspring), then being dragged off the road and given a sound thrashing only seems like an adult asserting control over the child based on the inequality of size. Revenge. Bullying. All for it's own sake.</p><p></p><p>What "Explosive Child" teaches, is how to see it from the child's point of view, so you can USE this to eventually help the child see YOUR point of view. </p><p></p><p>When it all boils down, few children choose to be oppositional for its own sake. But they get into the habit of being oppositional, because it becomes reflexive, they're too used to adults in their life being oppositional from their point of view). The adult putting the paper in the bin anyway, is an adult "teaching the child a lesson". But such lessons can go both ways, and some kids learn fast. Too fast.</p><p></p><p>Too often we have been raised with the view that we are the adults, the children are subordinate, they must learn to respect us. And so we impose our wills and enforce it through our size, our position of control and other forms of control. With a lot of kids, this works. But it is imperfect and, frankly, unfair when you really analyse it.</p><p></p><p>Some children need to be controlled. But a suprising number of children, including ones you feel arfe impulsive and out of control, do best when they are taught self-control rather than control imposed form without.</p><p></p><p>With most child-raising, parental control is applied first and we move from there towards teaching self-control. But with the ODD-seeming kids, the imposition of parental control (or teacher control) is where the problems start. The child tries to impose their own controls in return, following the example that has been set. These are the kids who learn best by imitation. They are good mimics, they say, "Show me how to do that!"</p><p>The trouble is, they learn EVERYTHING we do. This means you have to watch yourself more closely and ensure you are consistent in everything you do. You can't say, "Don't eat chocolate biscuits before dinner, you'll spoil your appetite," and then let him see you eat a chocolate biscuit. It does no good to say, "But I know I WILL eat MY dinner," because he only sees one rule for him, a different rule for you. And in these children's eyes, anything unfair is deliberately imposed and is therefore to be challenged and overthrown.</p><p></p><p>Did you son have any language delay? What are the characteristics that initially had you thinking about the possibility of Asperger's? What is his father like? You indicated in your other post that his father isn't much use to you in this. That seems to indicate a possible familial pattern. However, inheriting something like this isn't a certainty, there are environmental factors. Scientists are still trying to fully understand how these conditions develop, either genetically or environmentally. One of FG3's early teachers told us she understood Asperger's and autism, because of her identical twins, one has Asperger's and the other does not. While ever we have a situation where identical twins can be so different, we know there has to be an environmental/developmental factor.</p><p></p><p>I'm glad you found us, sorry you needed to. Welcome.</p><p></p><p>Read the book (or any info on it). It can help you cope day to day.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 332227, member: 1991"] I read your other post for a little more info - you initially thought your son might be Aspie but a neuropsychologist evaluation diagnosed ODD. I have a couple of concerns - 1) Your son is still only 5 years old. It's difficult to get a diagnosis right at this age so it's always good to keep an open mind, get a broader opinion maybe. 2) As others have already said, in most cases (if not all - the jury is still out) an underlying problem will produce the appearance of ODD. Treat the underlying problem and you find the ODD responding. What is ODD? What causes it? I find the more I read about psychological/psychiatric 'disorders', the more I feel that labels can be applied to anything, even moon mist. Of course some of these labels are valid, but I'm certain that many are merely the over-psychologisation of what is perhaps a normal response of an individual to an often extraordinary situation. I'm not saying that psychologists or psychiatrists are wrong to use these labels since it gives them a better understanding of the individual. But I think often WE are wrong if we think that a label always indicates a disease process. You've had "The Explosive Child" recommended for you to read - I endorse that. But books are always recommended, you could go broke if you bought everything. I recommend getting a book out of the library or maybe seeing what you can find out about it elsewhere. But this is a book which I bought, and I actually have very few such books on the shelf. Most were given to me, but I went out and bought this one after all the reading on this site told me it would help. And it has. If you want a bit more of a look at this book and what it advises, check out the Early Childhood forum on this site and look at the sticky on "Explosive Child". What the book is saying, basically, is that we need to get into the child's head and see the world through his eyes. We start from there and work back to what we consider acceptable. In autism or Asperger's, people often lack the ability to learn social skills the way other people learn; they CAN l earn, but need a different approach. If your child has anxiety, for example, or lacks some social skills either similar to autism or simply for any other reason, you will find that their responses can seem very "in your face" but the intention is not the same as for a "noral" person being in your face in the same way. Example - difficult child 3's responses when he sees me about to make what he considers a risky mistake. If I pick up a piece of paper with some numbers printed on it that seem meaningless, and I'm about to throw it out - I might get difficult child 3 screaming at me, "Don't be an idiot! That's important! Leave it alone! It's mine!" An observer might think, "What a rude child, to speak to his mother like that!" A teacher who doesn't know him might say, "Well, just for being so rude, I WILL throw this away!" Throwing the paper away after that outburst would trigger a massive rage with probable physical attack. It sure looks like ODD and out of control behaviour and raging. Now, let's look at it again from difficult child 3's perspective. His mother picks up off the floor a vital piece of paper, it has the only copy of cheat codes for his favourite game. He'd been playing the game earlier and forgotten where he left tat paper, and it was left on the floor. But oh, now! Mum is about to throw it away! It took weeks to get those codes, the game will have to be played form scratch and all those levels he's earned will be lost. MUST stop Mum throwing it away! [the panic at this stage is similar to a parent seeing her child running in front of a truck on the highway - and how do WE react when we see that?] If our response to the child's panicked reaction is to follow through, get angry at the rudeness and then throw the paper away anyway - it's similar to a child standing on the road in front of a truck saying to the mother, "I'll only get off the road if you ask me nicely." We'd be tearing our hair out and would possibly even run onto the road, grab the child and deliver a sound spanking. But turn that around from the child's point of view - to a child who does not see that there was a problem, and whose social skills cannot see a difference in status between an adult or a child (or parent or offspring), then being dragged off the road and given a sound thrashing only seems like an adult asserting control over the child based on the inequality of size. Revenge. Bullying. All for it's own sake. What "Explosive Child" teaches, is how to see it from the child's point of view, so you can USE this to eventually help the child see YOUR point of view. When it all boils down, few children choose to be oppositional for its own sake. But they get into the habit of being oppositional, because it becomes reflexive, they're too used to adults in their life being oppositional from their point of view). The adult putting the paper in the bin anyway, is an adult "teaching the child a lesson". But such lessons can go both ways, and some kids learn fast. Too fast. Too often we have been raised with the view that we are the adults, the children are subordinate, they must learn to respect us. And so we impose our wills and enforce it through our size, our position of control and other forms of control. With a lot of kids, this works. But it is imperfect and, frankly, unfair when you really analyse it. Some children need to be controlled. But a suprising number of children, including ones you feel arfe impulsive and out of control, do best when they are taught self-control rather than control imposed form without. With most child-raising, parental control is applied first and we move from there towards teaching self-control. But with the ODD-seeming kids, the imposition of parental control (or teacher control) is where the problems start. The child tries to impose their own controls in return, following the example that has been set. These are the kids who learn best by imitation. They are good mimics, they say, "Show me how to do that!" The trouble is, they learn EVERYTHING we do. This means you have to watch yourself more closely and ensure you are consistent in everything you do. You can't say, "Don't eat chocolate biscuits before dinner, you'll spoil your appetite," and then let him see you eat a chocolate biscuit. It does no good to say, "But I know I WILL eat MY dinner," because he only sees one rule for him, a different rule for you. And in these children's eyes, anything unfair is deliberately imposed and is therefore to be challenged and overthrown. Did you son have any language delay? What are the characteristics that initially had you thinking about the possibility of Asperger's? What is his father like? You indicated in your other post that his father isn't much use to you in this. That seems to indicate a possible familial pattern. However, inheriting something like this isn't a certainty, there are environmental factors. Scientists are still trying to fully understand how these conditions develop, either genetically or environmentally. One of FG3's early teachers told us she understood Asperger's and autism, because of her identical twins, one has Asperger's and the other does not. While ever we have a situation where identical twins can be so different, we know there has to be an environmental/developmental factor. I'm glad you found us, sorry you needed to. Welcome. Read the book (or any info on it). It can help you cope day to day. Marg [/QUOTE]
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