Penny finally dropped

[whatamess]

Malika, you seem to torture yourself with doubts and then rejuvenate with hope with every stumble and stride that J takes!! It might be very helpful to your level of concern to actually make a chart for yourself in order to get a fair assessment of J's day-to-day struggles. This is not very black and white. I honestly think that J does have obstacles to overcome, but I just as strongly think that he is a resourceful and bright child who is figuring out how to adapt!
Perhaps your daily chart could monitor J's attitude toward school, your attitude toward his school, his progress with letters and numbers, his social successes, his sports achievements and these would not be repeated back to J, this information would be gathered for say, 3 weeks, and you would reflect on the data--- did J come home with happy reports from school 13 out of 15 days, did he really only struggle with math 3 times out of 15? Did your attitude change directly after an incident and then went back to a "it might be ok afterall" baseline after he succeeded for a few days? Might this gathering and reflection of data ease your worries and perhaps show that while he will struggle, he is also able to overcome?

 

[InsaneCdn]

I agree with logging... and while you're at it, track bedtime, wake time, and quality of sleep; track what and how much he ate, what happened at school that day (field trip, rainy/indoors/insanity day, etc.)

Patterns tell us a LOT.

 

[tiredmommy]

Definitely. Get an assessment and sensory "diet" to follow at home. That will help alleviate most of his unwanted behaviors. My Duckie is easily 95% easier to be with since she was assessed and treated. We now just do occasional "tune-ups" when needed.

 

[DammitJanet]

Also try the out of sync child and some of those things that they can play with. Might help him quite a bit.

Try playing cards with him. Regular playing cards but make up games where he has to count the numbers. Take out the face cards. I did this with my kids. First we just added the cards...then we had adding and subtracting...later in life we did multiplying and dividing. Count and add with candies. Keyana learned to add and subtract by eating M&M's.

Letters...pudding and rice. Draw the letter on his back and have him guess what letter it is. Get the alphabet and put it in his room. They have some that cling to the wall without damaging it. Every week bring out two letters. Put those letters on the fridge and high light them. Sing silly songs about each letter. Download pages off the internet with that letter for him to color. Let him practice writing that letter over and over. Talk about words that start with that letter. Make the sound that letter makes. Have him say the letter and you answer with the sound before you start a conversation. Make it a game. Make little books about each letter. You write everything except the letter you are working on and let him draw the pictures.

 

[Malika]

Malika, you seem to torture yourself with doubts and then rejuvenate with hope with every stumble and stride that J takes!! It might be very helpful to your level of concern to actually make a chart for yourself in order to get a fair assessment of J's day-to-day struggles. This is not very black and white. I honestly think that J does have obstacles to overcome, but I just as strongly think that he is a resourceful and bright child who is figuring out how to adapt!
Perhaps your daily chart could monitor J's attitude toward school, your attitude toward his school, his progress with letters and numbers, his social successes, his sports achievements and these would not be repeated back to J, this information would be gathered for say, 3 weeks, and you would reflect on the data--- did J come home with happy reports from school 13 out of 15 days, did he really only struggle with math 3 times out of 15? Did your attitude change directly after an incident and then went back to a "it might be ok afterall" baseline after he succeeded for a few days? Might this gathering and reflection of data ease your worries and perhaps show that while he will struggle, he is also able to overcome?

Lol, whatamess, I don't feel that's all that accurate a picture And I'm not really a charts person, to be honest.... I think what you are referring to is my habitual disturbance/reaction to his emotional upsets and defiant behaviour which I think I'm slowly getting a handle on and learning how to manage. I'm not usually worried about his skills and abilities. He is indeed a resourceful child - taught himself to ride a bike without wheels aged three, taught himself to tie his shoelaces without anyone showing him (unless they did it at school??), has suddenly stopped wetting the bed and waking up to go to the loo and sleeps all night in his own bedroom, etc).
But this reading thing is different. I've been concerned he would have a learning difficulty for years. Why? Because he just could NOT learn colours, a possible early sign of dyslexia, had great difficulty with learning letters and numbers, has shown absolutely no interest in reading or learning to read. It's a remarkable thing when a child with an otherwise excellent memory just cannot remember the sounds or name of letters however many times he sees them and however you present them... And because it's such a fundamental year and learning to read such a fundamental skill, I am concerned, yes. His level of bafflement with the homework up to now has been total - so, yes, obviously I was concerned about that too. And then, last night, suddenly a light bulb switched on!
Incidentally, the child psychiatric I saw yesterday was also very concerned, says he needs to see a speech therapist urgently, says she will speak to his teacher... So it's not just me being neurotic
I'm actually really laid back about academic stuff... think J should still be playing and exploring the world still not doing all this dry book stuff. Hence all my hesitations about whether to pull him out or not. But in the end, stability for him is probably key. I think he's not ready to read or write and that's absolutely fine. The concern is that there is fundamental learning difficulty that will no go away however long we wait.

 

[whatamess]

I'm not saying you shouldn't address potential learning problems. I think, based on some posts of yours in the past, that your feelings toward schooling him at home was not a good idea, that entertaining that idea now might have more negative consequences for your relationship with him as well as his desire to interact with his school friends.

 

[Malika]

Well, you seemed to be saying earlier that you didn't think there were significant learning difficulties, but no matter! I just had a word with J's teacher at lunchtime and apparently the picture at school is a lot better than what I see at home in the evening - the teacher said he thought J was beginning to connect to reading and was making progress, at his own pace. All I usually see in the evening is bafflement and confusion but I now think this must be a reflection of J's tiredness and satiety. I would be SO pleased, truly so delighted, if J doesn't turn out to have learning difficulties like dyslexia... ADHD is enough for him to cope with. And me.

 

[InsaneCdn]

(plus the sensory stuff... )

 

[LittleDudesMom]

Malika, from all you've said, J does appear to have some sensory issues as well that may need to be addressed.

My son had an excellant IEP when he was very young that called for the use of manipulatives in math (we were actually provided with small colored blocks, a set of pie pieces for fractions, etc., from the school to keep at home for homework. As he got older, his IEP allowed a calculator. In the case of the calculator, it was for this type of thing: Ms. Smith has 20 students in her class - she wants to have the same number of desks in 5 rows. How many desks would she need to put in each row? He knew that the answer to the problem would be 20 divided by 5, but his early issues with math disallowed memorization of times tables. So, the calculator allowed him to get the answer after he figured out HOW to get the answer.

And another poster here who supports J in couting on his fingers - totally age appropriate!

Side note story - my son, kinda like yours, was a totally kinetic learning. He still is. Loves to feel, touch, see, experience, etc. His first word as a baby was "plane". He has loved planes from early on and plans to enter the air force after high school. When he was 2 and very early 3, we used to take his sister to school then drive out to our airport early in the am. You could park in the deck for one hour without cost. I would take a little snack and drink and we would drive up to the roof of the parking deck. From out vantage point (and we got out of the car) we could see the amtrak tracks and all the planes taking off and landing. He learned to count by counting the planes taking off and counting the small business/commuter jets parked outside the hangers! It was the way I kept him tuned in! Take advantage of his interests to work on making math and reading fun!

Sharon

 

[whatamess]

To be clear, counting sums on fingers is age appropriate at age 5, using context clues and memorizing short stories is appropriate at age 5. Difficulty with colors is a sign of dyslexia depending on what age that difficulty occured and whether it was overcome. Based on what you have said about J in the past, it doesn't sound like he has SIGNIFICANT learning issues. He may learn differently or need a different pace or approach, but that can also be a part of a spectrum of learning styles.

 

[Ktllc]

Since you have been urged to put J in speech therapy: go for it! I'm almost certain his speaking 2 languages (+ a bit of arabic) will be mentioned and even used as a "reason" for whatever delay they find. But please don't accept this argument: as you know, all my kids have been in speech therapy at one point or another and I don't believe that raising them bilingual created the delay. In the US, to qualify for speech, you have to have a significant delay and being bilingual usually creates a small delay, not a significant one.
And at any rate, speech therapy cannot hurt!
J is probably a lot like V: he looks too normal for anyone who does not live with him. He is smart, active, social in his own way (not always appropriate but does seek other's company). How can there be anything wrong? right?
The thing that most people forget: we, as mothers, know our kids best. You are very "in tune" with J and it's probably why you've noticed things very early on. Not every mothers are like that. Some are too busy, some are just not as intuitive and every other reasons possible...
It will take time, but slowly the gap will show and his difference will be undeniable. In the mean time, try to stay sane. Ask yourself: why am I trying to convince this person that something is off? Is it because this person needs to adjust and help my son or do I simply need to be acknowledge? Is this person really in a position to change and adjust?
It is very hard, but that's what I'm trying to do... I'm not saying that it is the best way of thinking, but I know I get so exhausted from it all.

 

[Malika]

Yes, Kttlc, you're right... everyone else around is much more sanguine than me... apart from the isolated few like the child psychiatric. who basically "gets" it that J is as he is because of some issue, ADHD or not.
To be honest, I don't know how it's going to go with J. I don't know if his differences are going to grow less as he gets older, or get more apparent. And I feel I am forgetting that things are open witha 5 year old, you don't really know what's going to develop or unfold. The reason I say this is because... with absolutely no prompting from me, and just because he wanted to and insisted, in fact, J wanted to me to make shapes of the letters in the bath, wanted to write the letters himself afterwards on a blackboard, was pretending to read a book and spotted a few letters... well, he's never done anything like that of his own initiative before. And I just felt surprised, like I am closing things off with judgements and concerns when actually I really don't know what's going on with J or what will go on.
Know what I mean?? But I get you about the exhaustion

 

[tiredmommy]

Malika~ Duckie didn't develop "typically", nothing too unusual but she became very adaptable. She'd struggle with with a milestone or skill (and I mean really struggle!) for days, weeks or even months and then wake up one day to not only have attained the skill but pretty well mastered it. It was (is)... bizarre.

I think Duckie and J may be two sides of the same coin. Duckie has never fallen outside the normal range academically but has struggled physically due to loose joints, allergies/asthma and being in sensory overload. J seems to excel physically and lag academically (though not greatly). It's all pretty fascinating.

 

[tiredmommy]

Also, Duckie doesn't have an established dominant side, does J?

 

[Malika]

Thank you. I will look at these questions with J in mind. As far as I know he is right handed, though sometimes uses his left (and used to be completely ambidextrous which I read somewhere is associated with ADHD...)
Yes, it is bizarre, you are right, this struggling with something and then suddenly being able to do it quite well. For example he went to the childminder last night when I went to my buddhist group and he insisted on taking his homework with him and apparently read to the childminder and her kids (lucky them ) When I picked him up, she said she thought it was amazing that after only a month of school he was reading this well. It's mad!!
Maybe I should just train mysellf to expect that J will surprise...

 

[InsaneCdn]

Maybe I should just train mysellf to expect that J will surprise...​

Read more: http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/f6/penny-finally-dropped-50491/index2.html#ixzz27ph8dom6​

Yes, Malika. It is very safe to say that this will be a recurrent pattern... it goes with the "Uneven development" that so many of our kids have. When the are good, they are very, VERY good, and when they are bad, they are HORRID. (remember that old poem?)

 

[Malika]

Well, this post comes with a health warning: please turn off your sets now if you are in inclined to impatience with my comings and goings about J's strange reading habits
So... I think it's all an illusion, this idea that he's making progress with reading with the school method. He is now indeed reeling off whole phrases that he has learnt by heart and can "recognise" some isolated words when you ask him, but this has little to do with reading. He cannot recognise most letters or in any way read the word if you break it down into syllables. I just don't get the method, which seems daft to me, but there you go. A neighbour friend whose daughter has severe dyslexia brought me some books about dyslexia and they all say that this "global method" is disastrous for children with learning difficulties.
Anyway, I never saw myself in this role at all but I feel I have no choice. Since we can't get an appointment with a speech therapist before the next millennium, I have to complement the school teaching at home. I have an old-fashioned book with the letters and then syllables and then words broken into syllables and we have started with that. I have to be really patient, constantly full of praise otherwise he gets instantly discouraged and wants to stop. I can see he's made some progress since last week, for example. Can now read little syllables of certain consonants followed by the vowels. But he keeps forgetting and forgetting the sounds and names of certain letters - p, t, m, n today - no matter if you've said it a minute before. He certainly can learn to read, I feel, but it's as if he needs intensive one to one coaching to learn the letters and make progress.
So here we go... with no real knowledge of what I am doing, I am teaching someone to read

 

[pepperidge]

In montessori preschool, my kids used 2-3 inch sandpaper letters which they traced out with their fingers. I think they also practiced tracing around the letters. And then they used the sandpaper letters to make words. Perhaps J needs a more hands on tactile approach.

 

[buddy]

Hi! Since I'm on the bleeping phone lately I didn't ever see this ....gosh, I'm gonna dig around and see if I have some fun stuff for you guys. Soooo many developmentally appropriate reading sites out there .....I have some CD's buried too. Let me dig. The memorizing and using context is fine ....part of the process. Around here we work with patterns and in many cases high frequency words ....tying the sounds to a characters name like Bobby bunny is fun and don't do more than one new sound or pattern per week. There could be an underlying question about working memory given your examples and once in long term memory he seems to have it. So not overloading that short term new memory system (at least with things like this where there is not a deep pool of knowledge stored yet for the information to connect to ) could be something to try to see if it could help.
Here he would probably not be considered behind but at risk given all the other issues I imagine ....you only have what's available to go by. I bet he will be a guy who needs things to match his overall learning style using touch and movement. OK ....I have my reminders set to sort thru the unpacked boxes ...

 

[whatamess]

Malika! First MEMORIZING sentences, phrases and pages from children's books **** IS *** part of the normal process of learning to read!! It really is!! Even if J were not being taught one method or the other- the natural, typical, normal way is to memorize parts or whole stories that have been repetitively read.

I have a daughter who read early and will study words and language going as a career aspiration in the near future, she memorized first, she taught herself to read; I have a son on the autism spectrum, he memorized first, who was taught in therapy to recognize the shape of words and memorize them; I have a son with dyslexia, he memorized first, he was taught phonics; I have a son without learning delays, he memorized first, he was taught phonics.

Also, despite disability and desire, each of my children began reading (not just memorizing) at different ages and more prodding, etc did not serve to help the process along more quickly, but only frustrate. I urge you to learn about the sequence of acquisition of skills for reading and assess for yourself whether J is indeed on track. Otherwise I think a natural progression could become strained and unpleasant if expectations are off.