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Please help, I desperately need some advice! V V Long!!!!
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 425294" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>You are not in the US, the 'rules' vary from place to place. My youngest son was initially diagnosed with Asperger's even though he was non-verbal. He DID have speech, however, just not language. Bizarre. He would repeat what he heard, often not distinguishing between incidental sounds and words. He had an amazing memory for sequences of sounds. He could read, from very young indeed (we suspect it began at about 6 months old). He got an autism diagnosis when he was about 3 and was also started on ADHD medications. Amazingly, he began to talk, REALLY talk, at that point. It's what worked, for him. Interestingly, some years later the school tried to have the diagnosis changed from autism to Asperger's because "he's talking real well now". The thing is, the definition of autism requires HISTORY of language delay. Once autistic, always autistic, even when he learns to blend in. Or as he put it when he was 8 years old, "I'm getting very good at pretending to be normal".</p><p></p><p>My older son had no language delay but otherwise was more classic in his autism presentation. So he got the label of Asperger's, when he was about 14. before that he had been labelled as severe ADHD and we'd had every idiot under the sun mucking around with his treatment and stuffing it up.</p><p></p><p>I really do think your daughter needs to be evaluated. And I am appalled at the lack of support, simply because you are not a single parent. I think you have just not found the right support group. You are also always free to start your own. Support can start as simply as inviting someone to meet you for coffee. Even with a large supportive family, be aware that often they can be the last ones to accept there is a serious problem - it is easier to believe you're nuts, than hurting. </p><p></p><p>With your GP - we had that problem too. Our local practice had two doctors. One was an old student of mine (no, I was not a teacher, but a technician). The other was his junior. My old friend was the more popular so it was harder to get in to see him and he was often distracted if I succeeded. So I saw the junior, who was quite hostile and very scathing about ANYTHING being wrong with difficult child 3 - he said I was just being over-anxious. For us, the first referral had to be the pediatrician. We'd already had Community Health insist on a speech assessment, that referral was through child protection services (yes, they got called on me by the child care people - I was horrified). So we already knew difficult child 3 had language delay (as if it wasn't obvious). The GP did not want to write the referral, so I said, "If you are right and I am just fussing over nothing, then the pediatrician will tell me so and I will accept that. But if there IS something amiss, the sooner we identify it, the better. You may well be right. But let's be certain you are right."</p><p>He wrote the referral to shut me up, and the rest is history. Mind you, it was this doctor that later on did not accept the diagnosis and claimed I had "shopped around" until I got the diagnosis I wanted, even though difficult child 3 has only ever seen that one pediatrician. </p><p></p><p>We went back to my regular (old friend) doctor, when the new idiot walked out and started up his own rival practice (nasty piece of work, that man). My friend was apologetic for not 'getting it' before, and we stayed with him as GP even after he moved several times. I do not "doctor shop"! He has now ceased general practice, he has begun to specialise in a field we do not need.</p><p></p><p>Back to the child - girls can get Asperger's but it is less common. They also can express it differently, in more complex ways. We now believe my second daughter is Aspie, but when she was younger she presented as very bright and a bit of a behaviour problem - insolent, stubborn and at times deceptive. Also obsessive about certain textures. Now she is older, she is actually displaying more problems. Like your daughter, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was highly verbal from a very young age, she was amazing. And very, very determined! We had her assessed when she was just 4 years old and she scored high across the board at the time - IQ of about 145. She also (at 4) had a Vineland Adaptive Age Equivalent of 6 years old. </p><p></p><p>You mentioned your daughter lies. How do you know? Are the lies obvious? Are they creative? My daughter is very creative, so is difficult child 3. Despite his autism diagnosis, difficult child 3 is capable of crafting a beautiful, fictional story. This is unusual for those on the spectrum. However, lying is far more difficult for them, as a rule. To be able to lie well (and therefore not get caught) requires significant social understanding which is a huge problem for those on the spectrum (and I include Asperger's on the spectrum). I used to say, difficult child 3 could not lie because autistics don't lie. Then his teacher showed me a classic example where he had unmistakably caught out difficult child 3 in an obvious lie. "I didn't do it" when the teacher had seen him do it. </p><p></p><p>Kids lie generally to get out of trouble. A kid who has higher levels of anxiety is more likely to try to lie, to try to reduce the anxiety. "I am in trouble now, I did not complete my work. Maybe I can lie and say I did." The lie paradoxically increases the anxiety and, over time, these kids learn (especially if they keep getting caught) to not lie. But not lying is a learned response in autism, it is not necessarily second nature. When younger, ALL kids try to lie. Those who are bad at it, over time learn not to. With help. These days I can trust all my kids (except easy child) to not lie. easy child lies a lot, especially when playing card games with her siblings. Not fair, really. But she has minimal Aspie traits and can lie well, poker-faced. When she does it to her siblings it is like shooting fish in a barrel - no real sport in it at all, no glory in such a win. easy child will not lie about anything important, however.</p><p></p><p>With your doctor - lay the cards on the table. </p><p></p><p>*Your daughter needs evaluation because she is an acknowledged behaviour problem at school now, when she was not before.</p><p></p><p>* There is no such medical or psychological condition as "a phase". There is always a reason, and an earlier evaluation will stand a chance of finding that reason earlier. An earlier GP we had (who owned the practice before my friend bought it) told me that difficult child 1 was fine, he was just different to his sisters. No need to evaluate, just give him time.</p><p></p><p>* Your daughter is a discipline problem at home and you are not coping. If this is your fault for bering a bad parent, the sooner some expert tells you this and gives you some sense of direction, the better for both you and your child.</p><p></p><p>Now, with this last one I do not for a minute believe you are the problem (not in any way you might think). But by saying this to the doctor, you take the wind out of his sails and remove that argument of his from the equation.</p><p></p><p>The main way you could be part of this problem (in the same way we all are/have been) is with your reactions to your child. I am increasingly convinced that in the vast majority of cases, ODD is something we produce ourselves in a child, by our response to their behaviour. What most people would consider acceptable discipline techniques, methods that work brilliantly on most kids, can actually produce ODD-semblance in these others.</p><p></p><p>Fore example - let's look at a hypothetical kid who has poor social skills. ALL kids want to belong, man is a social creature. But in order to belong, you need to know how to adjust your behaviour to social acceptability. it is innate in us all, except for those on the spectrum in whom it is flawed (not necessarily absent). Now, how best do we learn? Because these social skills CAN be learned. We learn by imitation. Who do we imitate? Our role models. Something I have observed in my own kids, as well as others on the spectrum, is that they tend to not discriminate on status. Often it's because they just do not recognise different status in individuals - social skills again. With hindsight we can see this in easy child 2/difficult child 2 - her apparent insolence to adults in childhood, was her failure to recognise that you have to be more polite to the principal than to your best buddy.</p><p>A classic example of this in difficult child 3 - we were in the waiting room for a doctor. difficult child 3 was rummaging through the box of books. A six month old baby in a carrier was crying, and the sound was beginning to upset difficult child 3. he complained, "I won't be able to concentrate on my book." Knowing he would read aloud anyway, I suggested he read a book to the baby. He face lit up - a great idea! So he went to the baby, held up a selection of "Spot" books and said, "Which would you like me to read?"</p><p>The baby waved a hand aimlessly which difficult child 3 took to mean THAT book, so he put the others down and began to read. I had taught him to read with expression, putting on voices and to make eye contact. So he did this with the baby, who lapped up the attention and began to gurgle in delight. difficult child 3 kept stopping to ask the baby, "Where do you think Spot is hiding? IS he under the table?" and waiting for a verbal response from the baby. difficult child 3 just did not understand that the baby was unable to respond. I could see this, but a casual observer would have thought difficult child 3 was just being sweet, and pretending.</p><p></p><p>The thing is - when our children do not distinguish different status, they will apply the same standards of behaviour they experience, back to the same person. So an adult who stands there, hands on hips and says, "Because I said so, that's why!" will get the same behaviour back from the child. A teacher who removes a point from a child for misbehaviour or inattention is likely to have something precious removed by the child in retaliation for "bad behaviour". Or likely to get scolded by the child. When you hear your own phrases coming back at you, you need to learn to modify your behaviour.</p><p></p><p>These children learn by imitating what we model. Now, you might think that if you ease back on the reins, anarchy will break loose. But with these kids, that's the positive payoff. Often, easing back and focussing on setting the child a good behaviour model will result in improved behaviour. If the child slips up, don't scold. Instead, stop. Ask the child to do it over, copying you. For example, difficult child 3 when distracted or busy with his schoolwork will call me and say, "Fix my lunch."</p><p>he doesn't mean to be rude so I don't scold or punish. But I also don't accept this. Instead I say, "If you want me to fix your lunch, you have to ask me nicely. Ask again, and this time say 'please'." I modelled it for him, he then repeats it, I then go and fix his lunch. When I bring it, I don't let go the plate until he says, "Thank you." If he begins to get angry because I won't let go the plate, I prompt. "You need to learn to say 'thank you, mum'."</p><p></p><p>This is a different approach and will especially work if your child is somewhere on the spectrum. If your child is not, but for whatever other reason has disordered or delayed social interactions, this will also work better for you.</p><p></p><p>i applaud your idea of going to the park with her. Even if you take a good book and sit on the bench while she plays, it puts you in supervision and, frankly, kids like ours often need supervision in order that we may continue to prompt appropriate behaviour in social interactions.</p><p></p><p>A book we recommend a lot is "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. it gives you a different way of looking at the situation. The thing is - normal discipline methods work well on normal kids, but not on all kids. The Ross Greene methods will also work on normal kids, but are a way of sometimes fast-tracking the child's strength of will into earlier and functional independence. Instead of fighting the child's determination, it uses it as a tool in a positive way. After all, properly channelled, such strength of will can be the individual's best asset later in life.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 425294, member: 1991"] You are not in the US, the 'rules' vary from place to place. My youngest son was initially diagnosed with Asperger's even though he was non-verbal. He DID have speech, however, just not language. Bizarre. He would repeat what he heard, often not distinguishing between incidental sounds and words. He had an amazing memory for sequences of sounds. He could read, from very young indeed (we suspect it began at about 6 months old). He got an autism diagnosis when he was about 3 and was also started on ADHD medications. Amazingly, he began to talk, REALLY talk, at that point. It's what worked, for him. Interestingly, some years later the school tried to have the diagnosis changed from autism to Asperger's because "he's talking real well now". The thing is, the definition of autism requires HISTORY of language delay. Once autistic, always autistic, even when he learns to blend in. Or as he put it when he was 8 years old, "I'm getting very good at pretending to be normal". My older son had no language delay but otherwise was more classic in his autism presentation. So he got the label of Asperger's, when he was about 14. before that he had been labelled as severe ADHD and we'd had every idiot under the sun mucking around with his treatment and stuffing it up. I really do think your daughter needs to be evaluated. And I am appalled at the lack of support, simply because you are not a single parent. I think you have just not found the right support group. You are also always free to start your own. Support can start as simply as inviting someone to meet you for coffee. Even with a large supportive family, be aware that often they can be the last ones to accept there is a serious problem - it is easier to believe you're nuts, than hurting. With your GP - we had that problem too. Our local practice had two doctors. One was an old student of mine (no, I was not a teacher, but a technician). The other was his junior. My old friend was the more popular so it was harder to get in to see him and he was often distracted if I succeeded. So I saw the junior, who was quite hostile and very scathing about ANYTHING being wrong with difficult child 3 - he said I was just being over-anxious. For us, the first referral had to be the pediatrician. We'd already had Community Health insist on a speech assessment, that referral was through child protection services (yes, they got called on me by the child care people - I was horrified). So we already knew difficult child 3 had language delay (as if it wasn't obvious). The GP did not want to write the referral, so I said, "If you are right and I am just fussing over nothing, then the pediatrician will tell me so and I will accept that. But if there IS something amiss, the sooner we identify it, the better. You may well be right. But let's be certain you are right." He wrote the referral to shut me up, and the rest is history. Mind you, it was this doctor that later on did not accept the diagnosis and claimed I had "shopped around" until I got the diagnosis I wanted, even though difficult child 3 has only ever seen that one pediatrician. We went back to my regular (old friend) doctor, when the new idiot walked out and started up his own rival practice (nasty piece of work, that man). My friend was apologetic for not 'getting it' before, and we stayed with him as GP even after he moved several times. I do not "doctor shop"! He has now ceased general practice, he has begun to specialise in a field we do not need. Back to the child - girls can get Asperger's but it is less common. They also can express it differently, in more complex ways. We now believe my second daughter is Aspie, but when she was younger she presented as very bright and a bit of a behaviour problem - insolent, stubborn and at times deceptive. Also obsessive about certain textures. Now she is older, she is actually displaying more problems. Like your daughter, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was highly verbal from a very young age, she was amazing. And very, very determined! We had her assessed when she was just 4 years old and she scored high across the board at the time - IQ of about 145. She also (at 4) had a Vineland Adaptive Age Equivalent of 6 years old. You mentioned your daughter lies. How do you know? Are the lies obvious? Are they creative? My daughter is very creative, so is difficult child 3. Despite his autism diagnosis, difficult child 3 is capable of crafting a beautiful, fictional story. This is unusual for those on the spectrum. However, lying is far more difficult for them, as a rule. To be able to lie well (and therefore not get caught) requires significant social understanding which is a huge problem for those on the spectrum (and I include Asperger's on the spectrum). I used to say, difficult child 3 could not lie because autistics don't lie. Then his teacher showed me a classic example where he had unmistakably caught out difficult child 3 in an obvious lie. "I didn't do it" when the teacher had seen him do it. Kids lie generally to get out of trouble. A kid who has higher levels of anxiety is more likely to try to lie, to try to reduce the anxiety. "I am in trouble now, I did not complete my work. Maybe I can lie and say I did." The lie paradoxically increases the anxiety and, over time, these kids learn (especially if they keep getting caught) to not lie. But not lying is a learned response in autism, it is not necessarily second nature. When younger, ALL kids try to lie. Those who are bad at it, over time learn not to. With help. These days I can trust all my kids (except easy child) to not lie. easy child lies a lot, especially when playing card games with her siblings. Not fair, really. But she has minimal Aspie traits and can lie well, poker-faced. When she does it to her siblings it is like shooting fish in a barrel - no real sport in it at all, no glory in such a win. easy child will not lie about anything important, however. With your doctor - lay the cards on the table. *Your daughter needs evaluation because she is an acknowledged behaviour problem at school now, when she was not before. * There is no such medical or psychological condition as "a phase". There is always a reason, and an earlier evaluation will stand a chance of finding that reason earlier. An earlier GP we had (who owned the practice before my friend bought it) told me that difficult child 1 was fine, he was just different to his sisters. No need to evaluate, just give him time. * Your daughter is a discipline problem at home and you are not coping. If this is your fault for bering a bad parent, the sooner some expert tells you this and gives you some sense of direction, the better for both you and your child. Now, with this last one I do not for a minute believe you are the problem (not in any way you might think). But by saying this to the doctor, you take the wind out of his sails and remove that argument of his from the equation. The main way you could be part of this problem (in the same way we all are/have been) is with your reactions to your child. I am increasingly convinced that in the vast majority of cases, ODD is something we produce ourselves in a child, by our response to their behaviour. What most people would consider acceptable discipline techniques, methods that work brilliantly on most kids, can actually produce ODD-semblance in these others. Fore example - let's look at a hypothetical kid who has poor social skills. ALL kids want to belong, man is a social creature. But in order to belong, you need to know how to adjust your behaviour to social acceptability. it is innate in us all, except for those on the spectrum in whom it is flawed (not necessarily absent). Now, how best do we learn? Because these social skills CAN be learned. We learn by imitation. Who do we imitate? Our role models. Something I have observed in my own kids, as well as others on the spectrum, is that they tend to not discriminate on status. Often it's because they just do not recognise different status in individuals - social skills again. With hindsight we can see this in easy child 2/difficult child 2 - her apparent insolence to adults in childhood, was her failure to recognise that you have to be more polite to the principal than to your best buddy. A classic example of this in difficult child 3 - we were in the waiting room for a doctor. difficult child 3 was rummaging through the box of books. A six month old baby in a carrier was crying, and the sound was beginning to upset difficult child 3. he complained, "I won't be able to concentrate on my book." Knowing he would read aloud anyway, I suggested he read a book to the baby. He face lit up - a great idea! So he went to the baby, held up a selection of "Spot" books and said, "Which would you like me to read?" The baby waved a hand aimlessly which difficult child 3 took to mean THAT book, so he put the others down and began to read. I had taught him to read with expression, putting on voices and to make eye contact. So he did this with the baby, who lapped up the attention and began to gurgle in delight. difficult child 3 kept stopping to ask the baby, "Where do you think Spot is hiding? IS he under the table?" and waiting for a verbal response from the baby. difficult child 3 just did not understand that the baby was unable to respond. I could see this, but a casual observer would have thought difficult child 3 was just being sweet, and pretending. The thing is - when our children do not distinguish different status, they will apply the same standards of behaviour they experience, back to the same person. So an adult who stands there, hands on hips and says, "Because I said so, that's why!" will get the same behaviour back from the child. A teacher who removes a point from a child for misbehaviour or inattention is likely to have something precious removed by the child in retaliation for "bad behaviour". Or likely to get scolded by the child. When you hear your own phrases coming back at you, you need to learn to modify your behaviour. These children learn by imitating what we model. Now, you might think that if you ease back on the reins, anarchy will break loose. But with these kids, that's the positive payoff. Often, easing back and focussing on setting the child a good behaviour model will result in improved behaviour. If the child slips up, don't scold. Instead, stop. Ask the child to do it over, copying you. For example, difficult child 3 when distracted or busy with his schoolwork will call me and say, "Fix my lunch." he doesn't mean to be rude so I don't scold or punish. But I also don't accept this. Instead I say, "If you want me to fix your lunch, you have to ask me nicely. Ask again, and this time say 'please'." I modelled it for him, he then repeats it, I then go and fix his lunch. When I bring it, I don't let go the plate until he says, "Thank you." If he begins to get angry because I won't let go the plate, I prompt. "You need to learn to say 'thank you, mum'." This is a different approach and will especially work if your child is somewhere on the spectrum. If your child is not, but for whatever other reason has disordered or delayed social interactions, this will also work better for you. i applaud your idea of going to the park with her. Even if you take a good book and sit on the bench while she plays, it puts you in supervision and, frankly, kids like ours often need supervision in order that we may continue to prompt appropriate behaviour in social interactions. A book we recommend a lot is "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. it gives you a different way of looking at the situation. The thing is - normal discipline methods work well on normal kids, but not on all kids. The Ross Greene methods will also work on normal kids, but are a way of sometimes fast-tracking the child's strength of will into earlier and functional independence. Instead of fighting the child's determination, it uses it as a tool in a positive way. After all, properly channelled, such strength of will can be the individual's best asset later in life. Marg [/QUOTE]
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