Punishment

Ktllc

New Member
Malika, it might be helpful to get a note from J's psychiatrist stating that J's behavior should be handled as ADHD (precotionary diagnosis). That friendly letter could also give some practical tips.
If the teacher sees that you are backed up by a professional, she might not dismiss it as easily.
You could also have a talk with your son and try to teach him the "social game". He might be too young to really grasp it yet, but explaining it can't hurt. It does not come naturally to some kids.
I wish I had better advice, but having to explain the issues of a difficult child is hard anywhere. If you have decided to stay in your village for an other year, try not to overanalyse the "small village dynamic". It has its pros and cons like any other setting. If there were a perfect setting out there, we would all meet there!
 

Marguerite

Active Member
On the topic of ADHD incidence in a rural environment - when you have wider open spaces you also have more opportunity for kids to work off things physically. Maybe less so thee days with kids inside on computers a lot more, but when I look back in time in our family, I can see family members who undoubtedly had problems, but who were not in a position for those problems to be more widely known or an issue. My father in law, for example, grew up on an isolated sheep station and was (with his brothers) correspondence schooled by their mother. They had to spend a lot of time outside helping muster sheep, doing various chores, learning how to repair fences etc. All as soon as they were old enough to carry a roll of fencing wire.

When father in law was in his late teens his parents sold up and moved to suburban Sydney. father in law did not cope well, hated it. As soon as WWII broke out (1939 for us) he enlisted. The army gave him discipline and structure as well as an opportunity to demonstrate his practical problem-solving skills.

When you have ADHD kids in a city environment, the problems are more apparent than when the kids have opportunities to tire themselves out climbing trees, working in the fields, running outside etc. So it makes sense that a condition like ADHD would be better noticed in the city, than in the country.

Insane's rather tongue-in-cheek comments about the French eliminating their problem genetic code is actually a little valid - memories are often long in some aspects, more so in the country. And France's experience in WWII was extreme and nasty. People who are different are probably more inclined even now to attract suspicion and hostility. The pendulum swings both ways. France's recognition of the military efforts of those who saved their country is beyond compare. However, the atmosphere that people endured during WWII was one of deep suspicion of anything different, conflicting with the undercurrent of rebellion and national pride. A lot of good things had to be buried and the public face and private face of its citizens became more disparate. WWI took more lives but I think WWII did more damage to the national psyche.

Structured play during break time is something to push for, I think. I wonder if J's teacher would adopt the "walk and talk" punishment option?

I would go into that meeting with your own summary of the book you lent her, listing the things you hoped she would get from the book. Then listen to her and take notes - what DID she actually get from the book? Because in knowing this, you know her area of focus and this will help you manage your interactions with her more accurately. I found letters, notes and emails - anything in writing - helped me gel my own views as well as provide a paper trail. If you have already told the school important stuff in writing, and they try to say they didn't know, then you have them on toast.

As for IQ testing - I may be in the minority here, but we had our kids tested very young. easy child 2/difficult child 2 was barely 4 years old. difficult child 3 was also only just turned 4. The information was valuable, even though it needed to be updated later on. But if you retain control of the testing, I think you will have a more reliable result and a more satisfactory outcome. So organise it yourself, and if you think it could help the school, give them a copy of the results. A private assessment is likely to be much more detailed and more specific to giving advice to the school that they need to hear. Not necessarily what they want to hear.

Tests applied to younger children are specifically designed to assess them at that young age. Older kids get WSK-R, younger kids get WPPSI. It's alright to assess younger kids, but the results are (should not be) locked in stone. You won't get false high scores, ever (unless you give the kid the answers!) but you CAN (and often do, especially with learning problems of any kind) get artificially low scores in some test areas. Knowing where the highs and lows are, can give valuable information to parents and educators alike.

If you go ahead and organise this yourself, you will:

1) get a more reliable, useful result.

2) Save the school the money, the time and the hassle. AND give the school a copy of a much more effective result.

3) Prove yourself to be a supportive and cooperative parent, working in partnership with the school (even if you personally want to cut them loose and ream them a new one each).

You get brownie points, IOW, and you gain the upper hand in how you get on with them from here.

I equate your problems in some ways to the problems we have here in our village school. Our local principal (fairly new, and I'm learning to dislike him intensely) makes up whatever rules he wants to, to suit the situation. SpEd kids are getting a raw deal and constant suspensions, with the latest being that an IEP request was denied on the grounds that "we don't have to do this any more if we don't want to." What the...? This no longer affects difficult child 3 personally, but I am advocate for a few parents in our area and I'm back to banging my head on the desk.

So, Malika - I feel your pain!

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for your very supportive comments. It's a funny thing... I was thinking last night that wheareas once upon a time I was really uncomfortable with the idea of a label for J, now I think I would welcome it if it leads to people adapting their behaviour towards him. As with everything, accepting a child's difference is a process. I feel personally I have come quite a long way in the last year or so in coming to some understanding of J's behaviour and difficulties and learning or discovering better ways of dealing with him. When I read profiles of ADHD children, they often talk about them as being highly sensitive and very affectionate. J is certaintly both of those, and extremely responsive to affection and encouragement. These work with him FAR better than punishment and anger - that is all I want to convey to the teacher. Even if doesn't have some label or official difficulty, surely it is more sensible to use what works with a child than what doesn't work...?
As for the IQ test, we have a neuro-psychological test scheduled in a couple of week's time. I don't know whether she would administer an IQ test? This teacher is very focused on the academic aspect of things, which I am really not very concerned with at this stage - or at least I am not concerned with notions of judgement and performance. I would like J's real intelligence and curiosity to be stimulated and engaged, however. These things are going to happen more in an alternative school than a conventional one. I would like to stay out the year here, partly because of sporting activities. I have just signed him up for tennis, gym and roller skating! He had a trial tennis lesson yesterday and it seemed to go well - he was fully concentrated hitting a big foam ball back and forth (well, he was mostly missing it of course) for about 20 minutes. I think tennis is probably very good for ADHD kids, teaching focus and fine co-ordination. Next year, when he is five, he can start rugby and martial arts. These activities are going to be important for him, I think.
Will report on how it goes with the teacher tonight :)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
The neuropsychologist test almost certainly includes some level of report on IQ, but bear in mind, chances are a single score cannot be accurately applied to J. I'm betting splinter skills will show up. This alone should be useful information for the teacher. Just remember - if there is a wide disparity between the lowest scores and the highest, any single IQ result will be completely meaningless and almost certainly an underestimate.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
The teacher had a meeting yesterday and so asked to postpone our meeting until this evening. Meantime, I have been to see the childminder that J insists (with prolonged crying and complaints) he does not want to go to any more, saying also "she punishes me". I tried, obviously, to be as diplomatic and respectful as I could in talking to her and she did say at the end that I had put it all to her so nicely that she wanted to try and do as I asked... I explained as best I could that ADHD, though not visible was nonetheless real and that these children act on impulse without being able to stop themselves in the moment. I said that I had found that punishment simply didn't work and that it just made him more naughty and also feel very bad about himself. She says she understands and will try to take a different tone with him. So we'll see.
Thinking about it afterwards, I wondered whether J hates being punished so much because he seems to have such a need and desire for affection and warmth - so that if this is removed, as it obviously is when people are in admonishing/punishing mode, he feels he cannot bear it, will not accept it... But then, which of us likes being spoken to it harshly or critically?
 

Marguerite

Active Member
If J has a much greater need for approval and affection, then it can be used as an incentive. And if it is a powerful incentive and they still can't get the behaviour they want, then it is clearly not for lack of incentive. Sometimes disciplinarians just have to accept that a child is not yet capable of complying, no matter how motivated.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
An update for anyone interested in this little episode:
I met with J's teacher this afternoon. She initially seemed brisk, not particularly open or willing to listen (on the defensive after our last conversation?) but seemed to gradually thaw. She SAYS she does not punish J or any of the children in the sense of sending them to the corner - this is confusing as it does not tally with what J says. She says she simply has them cool down by themselves when they transgress some boundary... She again repeated that she doesn't see that J has particular problems other than being a rowdy little boy like the other rowdy little boys in the school but she wants to go ahead with having a multi-disciplinary meeting involving the child psychiatrist, the speech therapist, the school psychologist and the pediatrician... I now wonder if this isn't rather like overkill - but perhaps better too much than too little? :) She was again positive about J, saying he is clearly very intelligent and also very sweet and likeable. She SAYS she is determined to get to the bottom of this if something is going on and come up with conditions that will facilitate his learning in optimum conditions. So, on the face of it, all seems to be encouraging...
 

Ktllc

New Member
The first thing that comes to my mind: J and the teacher have a different interpretation of the action taken after misconduct.
If he is sent to a cool down spot after misbehaving, J could feel he is being punished and the teacher sees it as a coping method (coping for both J and her and the class).
I use that technique with V and the therapist helps him regognize when he needs to use. Ideally, he would go to his cool down spot when he feels overwhelmed, stressed (...... whatever negative emotion) on his own and before anything bad happens. We are still working on it but he is doing progress.
The first few times I have used the cool down spot, V thought he was being punished. I had to explain it MANY times that it was not a punishment but a way to cope with an overwhelming situation, a way to find a happy place again.
Maybe try to implement that technique at home so it becomes more acceptable for him at school. It takes time to teach, but it is well worth it.
I made V's cool down spot very attractive: a nice comforter on the floor, some little toys in a box, a big Ikea leaf on top. It s tucked between the couch and the wall in the livingroom: he can isolate himself but also is able to peack at me if he wants to.
He can get out when ever he wants, but I keep on explaining that the right time is when he is calm again.
As far as the multidisciplinary team: go for it! It will give a baseline of any progress or set back for the future.
I just did it with V and his delays are not big enough yet. The team wants to monitor him every 6 months though.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Let's assume the teacher is speaking the truth. Let's also assume J is speaking the truth. Now, how can we reconcile this?

I think Ktllc has it. J sees things differently and interprets calm down time as punishment. And while he sees it this way, he will not calm down the way the teacher needs him to. What I think needs to happen is better communication between J and the teacher, perhaps facilitated/reinforced by you. If you do the same sort of things at home (the calm down place, perhaps with J working with you to choose a place and help furnish it) then it could de-fuse some of the conflict between him and his teacher.

Another possible factor - the other kids and what they perceive the situation to be; or if, perhaps, the other kids are teasing J and criticising him for being punished when he was sent to calm down.

As I've said in other threads - what often needs to happen, is to begin with whatever is happening in the child's head. That is the starting point. How he sees the world, how he interprets the data, is where you begin. He needs a translator of sorts, to interpret how others see the needs compared to how he does.

The multidisciplinary meeting sounds like a good idea. I don't see it as overkill at all.

This teacher sounds like she really wants to help. Even if she gets it wrong, her heart still seems to be in the right place. If she is prepared to inform herself, prepared to change her approach and work with you and J, then be generous in your assessment of her efforts and keep your mindset with her on the team approach, with you, J and the teacher being equal team members.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thanks Marguerite and Ktllc. I am going to sound very cynical but I am not sure that I am entirely trust this teacher. Which is British English for "I don't trust her" :) Without feeling like it is an extreme problem. She was hitting J, I went to see her and she of course denied it, while making very clear with her body language that she felt implicated and disturbed by what I was saying. I do think she and the other teachers call it punishment - this is standard language in schools here and J cannot have made the word up himself since he uses the French word and must have heard it at school. I think she is very concerned to cover her back because, as I said earlier, she nearly lost her post years ago because she refused to believe or take seriously the fact that a child had dyslexia. That said, I think she is a very conscientious and committed teacher in her way - very interested in children learning and progressing - but not particularly "child centred". Again, that is probably not so unusual. When I talked about the fact that J had started saying he didn't want to go to school, she was rather dismissive, saying something to the effect of "Oh you don't want to listen to what a four year old says"... I do think she is genuinely fond of J, but she seems to complain about the three boys in the school, including him, who are very rowdy, aggressive and turbulent. Who can blame her? :) I just think she is more interested in academic stuff than psychological or behavioural stuff.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I'm not saying she's not hitting him or punishing him. Or rather, has perhaps been doing it previously. But whatever you believe privately, if you approach her with a public attitude of "I believe you but I also believe my child, perhaps this [compromise non-blame] is the answer, we can go forward this way," you have a better chance of a positive outcome.

I remember an incident with difficult child 3. A teacher (not his class teacher) who is also a personal friend and neighbour of ours, had (so another child I know told me) grabbed difficult child 3 by the shirt and physically dragged him. Not on. difficult child 3 did not tell me about it specifically (but he did report a problem interaction in broad), but I believed my witness. I went to the principal to report the incident. I would not say who told me, only that it had been reported to me by a reliable source. The principal investigated and told me nothing had happened. While I did not believe the principal (that teacher had a reputation for getting physical with students) I knew I had sent a message - don't touch my kid, I WILL know about it. And she never did it again.

I still get on well with this teacher, so does difficult child 3. He is very forgiving. Interestingly, their house is often targetted by local kids out for revenge. But I got much better results from any problem teachers by letting them know that I had standards that I required them to work to; I was part of the team and deserved to be kept in the loop just as I kept them in the loop; that I would insist that my child's needs be addressed and I was not going away until matters were arranged to my satisfaction.

I'm sure the principal knew that I did not believe him, but he wanted me to not take legal action. My main aim was not revenge, but to make the physical punishment stop. It did stop.

Marg
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
she seems to complain about the three boys in the school, including him, who are very rowdy, aggressive and turbulent. Who can blame her? I just think she is more interested in academic stuff than psychological or behavioural stuff

Sorry. I don't buy that as an excuse.

If you're "more interested in the academic stuff" then what on earth are you doing teaching young kids? That approach works (sort of) at the University level. Otherwise - you either CARE about all aspects of the kids needs, or you get out of teaching.

Of course, you can't make that happen. BUT... this attitude is a throw-back of at least 100 years. And it does not work. And I do not believe that these are the only kinds of teachers you have in France - but it might be the only ones you have available in the village right now.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Insane, there really can be major cultural differences both in rural vs city as well as between different countries. Where we live, for example, is in one particular well known segment of Sydney. This area is also notorious for similar attitudes in education staff both at the school level and at the next level up. I found that to get the help we needed, I had to go a lot higher up the chain of command, and that caused other problems. There are some schools in our area (an increasing number) that are great. And other parts of Sydney, including the correspondence school where difficult child 3 is now enrolled, are marvellous. But yes, attitudes like this can prevail in an area, and often where you get one in a school, the whole school is "contaminated". Or a bigger area - a district, a province, a state, a country. Just remember that there are parts of the world where school is expensive, optional and often for boys only.

In our local school the problems were really bad. I thought the new principal would bring some positive change and for a while it looked like this was the case - old teachers who had been big problems were leaving. But this new principal now seems far worse, and is frankly a nightmare for parents of difficult children. What is more, our rules have changed so it is now almost impossible to do what I did and complain to a higher authority. The principals are now far more autonomous which means they can make up the rules as they go. The latest gem appears to be that the principal can refuse to call an IEP meeting even where a parent has asked all the right questions in writing and accompanied it with a specialist's diagnosis. The principal can simply say, "No, I don't want to," and the parent can do nothing.

I do believe Malika when she says that this is a big problem, one she cannot fix at the local level or in the bigger picture.

Marg
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I have been understood to be saying more than I am actually qualified to say or have intended to say. My direct experience of the French school system is limited to this one village school. Beyond that I have the anecdotal input of friends, who talk about an often rigid system and harsh teaching methods. I think it is very probable that there are teachers within the system who are more caring, knowledgeable and human in their approach. As a whole, though, the French national education system does prioritise intellect and academic learning and I feel that the kind of qualities I would really want in a school would be found only in the alternative system in France - for those to whom it means anything, I am talking about Freinet schools, Montessori schools, the forest school I found and the like.
At the same time as all that I genuinely don't feel great reproach or blame of the village school teacher. She didn't know anything about ADHD but has been willing to learn (albeit probably more for personal than altruistic reasons) and although her style is quite rigid and severe, she seems reasonably fond of J and J is reasonably fond of her. So she must be doing something right. And I too am learning and feeling my way in this whole ADHD thing. I don't have specific demands of the school other than that they try to take on board that J probably needs a different approach to learning and being and this they seem to be doing. It is much better than I might have presumed from the outset, to be honest. The two assistants at the school are really nice and seem very good with children. The confusing element also is that the teacher tells me, and I have no reason to think she is not telling the truth about that, that J is eager to learn and concentrates well in class. His "best friend" - ie the only other boy in the class - told me the other day, very solemnly, "J is very, very good in class" :) So the teacher can also be forgiven at this early stage for not really understanding that there is an issue or what the issue is...
I think I am reacting more to my own knowledge of how J is when he doesn't want to do something and just not wanting school to become this kind of nightmare for him (and me). With the childminder he doesn't want to go to, for example, he will start a campaign of repeated crying and complaining that he doesn't want to go which reaches crescendo, tantrum point in the car as we are on the way to her house... Imagine this happening every morning for school. No thank you :) I'm probably being as selfish as I am thinking of J in trying to arrange things so that he keeps wanting to go to school :)
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Is it possible we have a differing definition of punishment here or maybe one should say that J doesnt do well with corporal punishment but does much better with 1, 2, 3 Magic or the Love and Logic approach when talking to the teacher or the childminder. Maybe just saying he doesnt like punishment leaves them sort of bewildered at how to handle him.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I don't know, Janet. Maybe the punishment thing is even a red herring. What I do know for certain is that if you talk to and deal with J from a basis of affection, warmth and a certain flexibility, he will be eating out of your hand. You can be firm with him and he will do what you want when you want. If you are nagging, critical, punitive in tone and approach, he can become monstrous (less so at school than at home but it still operates in the two places). I don't know why it is like this. But I do know that it is good for both the adults and the child when you find the right way to handle him...
 

keista

New Member
The confusing element also is that the teacher tells me, and I have no reason to think she is not telling the truth about that, that J is eager to learn and concentrates well in class. His "best friend" - ie the only other boy in the class - told me the other day, very solemnly, "J is very, very good in class". So the teacher can also be forgiven at this early stage for not really understanding that there is an issue or what the issue is...

Is there in fact an issue at school? If it does not manifest itself as a problem, then there is no problem - at school. It's very possible the structure and the assistance of the aide, at this level, make J's issue a non- issue.

Example: When DD1 started school, I thought FOR SURE I'd be getting calls daily about her tantrums and constant lying. Not a single one! When I mentioned what I perceived as "issues" the teachers looked at me as if I was from another planet. Apparently their methods worked for her. By second grade, not so much, but her teacher then did identify them as "issues" as opposed to behavioral problems, and dealt with them in her own way and by contacting me for support. By third grade, this was not the case. Her teacher saw her issues as behavioral problems, and dealt with them as such. Ironically it was the SAME teacher she had in 1st grade. BUT teaching 3rd grade she was expecting more "maturity". Problem was that her problems were not due to maturity, but mental illness.

My point is to give it some time to see what will work and what won't." the opportunity to do it 'wrong'. And THEN when they sy that "nothing" works, "I told you so" is in order as well as, "will you try it MY way NOW????????"

The multidisciplinary team is not overkill at all. It's actually pretty standard. The more ppl that are there to give input, the better.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Malika -
The more we go through this, the more your son sounds like a description in a good (but out of print) book I've used a lot over the years... "superior, sensitive, immature". Superior = academic intellegence (not necessarily genius), sensitive = emotional intellegence, and of course we know what immature is.

So... J. can handle the academics - and the teachers don't have a problem with this. They might even be able to handle the "immature" part - most adults can wrap their heads around that part. But... some of "our" kids are so highly perceptive on the personal relationship side of things, that the kid is picking up mixed vibes that the teacher isn't even aware of sending out. So... the kid reacts more strongly to than would "seem" appropriate - but the teacher is not aware of just how perceptive this kid is. As in "there's NO POSSIBLE WAY that a 5 year old can be that perceptive". Oh yes they can.

The teachers will NOT run into very many of their careers. The combo isn't "extremely" rare, but rare enough that they will either not have seen it, or not have recognized it. The reason I know about this one? It fits my brother to an absolute T. School crushed him - dropped out, etc. Until he matured enough (like, age 25) to understand that he was going to have to find a way to work with the system, to his own advantage. Went back, finished his 12, got his BA degree (dean's medal), went on to complete his masters degree...

Not that school will crush J - but, we (my parents and others in our family) had no idea about this stuff. YOU do.

This advanced sensitivity is not "complete" though... they are highly perceptive, but don't really have the knowledge or experience to know what to do with these perceptions. Its a real challenge for the kid.

Not saying this is the answer either - but you might want to tuck it in the back of your brain and see if any of this fits.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Those adjectives could certainly apply to J, Insane - though perhaps I am a little hesitant about the idea that he has "superior intelligence". This may not at all be in the formal, academic sense. He does seem bright and aware. Creative in his thinking. That's what you read about ADHD kids, though. Did/does your brother have ADHD? He is certainly perceptive, emotionally intelligent in the sense that he can tell what people are feeling and is responsive to that - and immature? Yes, I have no problem with that description :) Except that, as I believe you have said before, there is a kind of uneven development - so in some ways he seems more mature than your typical 4 year old. Will often be self-assured in new situations, for example, to the point of "cockiness" in a way that is odd for such a little boy. Anyway, each child is a unique combination of characteristics and I am sure every young child could be described at great length :) It is useful for me to hear the description though I can wryly imagine the reaction if I now went into school to announce to the teacher that J is actually (in French) superior and sensitive :) She would be give me even shorter shrift than she has done, I think.
The "issue" in school, Keista, is in play time where, along with other boys, J is prone to being sanctioned frequently (though not according to the teacher now - I am a little wary of how she seems to dress things up when I speak to her). He does not present problems of concentration or behaviour in the class, which is mainly why the teacher is questioning the diagnosis of ADHD. I told her that the child psychiatrist explains this by saying that he is on the extreme end of the hyperactivity spectrum rather than the attention deficit spectrum... If I had not spoken about any of this, J would not be seen as anything other than a turbulent little boy who needs more discipline. This is really why I am trying to flag it up, I suppose - because I know that greater punitive discipline doesn't solve anything but on the contrary aggravates it.
I have a lot of work at the moment and yesterday J went to a childminder. Because he is so resistant to the other one, I had telephoned another childminder in the area and we had a trial run. When I picked him up at the end of the afternoon yesterday she said the day had gone excellently and that he was really very sweet. Firstly she has far more suitable premises than the other lady, who is cramped in a small flat with two other children - a garden with swimming pool that J can use and a field with a pony, believe it or not, which J had a grand time grooming. But it is also clear from our conversations that she understands J's type of personality - she said she had had another little girl like that, hyperactive and extremely sensitive, and it was a question of heading them off before they got to meltdown point and not being overly authoritarian with them. What a blessing, if it all continues this well! J was delighted with the experience - another little boy there for him to play with - and wanted to go today as well :)
So while it might seem like I am "spoiling" J by trying to get the right conditions for him all the time - and there could be an argument that I am not helping prepare him for the tough "real world" that does not make concessions - it is just a question of creating as much peacefulness and happiness for himself and others as possible. Most of our time together now is peaceful and happy (don't get me wrong - there are exceptions, such as last night when he played a teasing, provoking game of refusing to brush his teeth that made me really cross...) and this is so much better than how things used to be... These kids need special handling, I suppose.
 

keista

New Member
So while it might seem like I am "spoiling" J by trying to get the right conditions for him all the time - and there could be an argument that I am not helping prepare him for the tough "real world" that does not make concessions - it is just a question of creating as much peacefulness and happiness for himself and others as possible. Most of our time together now is peaceful and happy
NOT AT ALL! You are creating positive learning environments. Not in the academic sense, but in the social/emotional sense. He's not being spoiled, he's being "handled differently", and in such an environment, when conflict does arise, it will be easier to handle.

So glad this other childminder is working out so far. I hope it keeps working out!
 
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