RM please read

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
The trouble is... it doens't work for very young kids.
For a kid that is already past the primary bonding age - say, over 3 years or so - I can see it working.
But those first years, they somehow need dedicated, committed care from the same person/people.
Anything short of adoption... doesn't provide that.
And so the system then just ends up generating far more attachment issues and the extreme behaviours that go with it.

There is no right fix. Just a whole long list of wrong problems... and the kids end up being the victims, no matter which way we try to address it.
 

rejectedmom

New Member
Well actually adoptive babies are often not realeased to their adoptive families till they are 3+ months old. Most agencies do not want to place a child until the period of time where the mother can recind her release without going to court, is over. For most states that peroid is 60-90 days. I used to foster pre-adoptive infants. I got them right from the hospital. Even those surrendered at birth, on average spent their first three months in foster care and some up to 8 months. so already there could be bonding issues becaue the baby bonds with the foster parent and then is moved. Those children not free, whose parents rights needed to be terminated on average stayed with me 4 years before they were freed. So only the private adoptions and maybe foreighn adoptions are getting the benifit of early year stabilitynow anyway. -RM
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Most all of the adoptions I know personally were private adoptions, as was hours. The babies were placed after the 72 hour waiting period. We got difficult child on the fourth day. And I can tell you that the majority of these adoptions are having serious problems with their difficult child's. The bonding experience starts way before birth and the adoption process interrupts normal development on many different levels. You would think being placed shortly after birth would have a better outcome but I haven't seen that.

Nancy
 
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InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
With all due respect to those on this forum with adoptions gone off the rails...
I have an older-adoptee (i.e. grade-school) sibling, a handful of adopted-at-birth cousins, and probably a couple dozen adoptees where I'm either friends with the adoptee or with the parents.

Some have gone well.
Some are off the rails.

My sibling... should have been an off-the-rails case. Came out of a horrid situation as a toddler, bounced around for the years from then until an adoptive home accepted... and then rejected... before coming to our home. Should have been extreme Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), in theory. BUT... the early toddler period was with a Mom who really did love her kids (just a raft of other problems). When they pulled the kids, my sib was of an age that it "could have" and "should have" been a major strain on the bond-development... but somehow, the bonding that formed at "home" provided a basis for normal relationships later. Not perfect... but within reasonable standards. I know kids from non-adoptive situations that are in way worse shape.

Some on this board - like MWM - have a full range of experiences with adoptees...

Adoption is NEVER the ideal. In real life, a dwindling number of kids get a chance at "ideal" anyway... how many homes do you know of where there is two parents, their own kids, and no step kids, with financial stability and emotional strength?

Those extended-connection adoptions? The ones that have had problems... have all adopted babies who were exposed to substance abuse, OR with family histories of significant mental illness.

The criminality to me is that adoption agencies are not required to pursue such details fully from the birth parents - and maybe can never be 100% due to unknown fathers etc. - and are not required to fully disclose these details to prospective adoptive parents.

But what to do with babies that come from these situations? Any form of public care will just increase the damage, as they will never form normal attachments... but adopting these out can leave a wide wake of damage to others. There is no good answer, anywhere.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Insane I don't mean to offend anyone, truly I don't. That's why I say unless you are willing to walk in my shoes be quiet (I don't mean you). I know there are adoptions that go well. I'm glad the bonding that happened with your sib went well, it usually doesn't. I don't mean to minimize or negate your positive experience and I also don't want this discussion to turn ugly. It is a subject that is not easy to discuss with most people. Of course substance abuse and criminal behavior and mental illness and character defects and many other things come into play. It is rare that the college educated, well adjusted, substace fee and mentally healthy female finds herself pregnant and chooses adoption. Those are the ones you would expect to have a good outcome.

I am not sure that having adoption agencies disclose more information will help. Because until the subject is not taboo and can be looked at honestly and without judgement or emotion, prospective parents who desperately want to have a family will ignore those warnings. And until we stop using adoption as a politcal and religious football, nothing will change.

And I wil end by saying I love my difficult child unconditionally. I could not love her more if she was born to me. I have shed more tears and done everything within my power to help her. We have loved her and protected her and provided for her and given her every oppotunity under the sun and even when she messed up we were there to support her. So I don't want this discussion to give you or anyone else the wrong impression.

And truly this discussion also applies to substance abuse in non-adoptive families. It is inherited and there are plenty of birth families who are living the same h*ll.

Nancy
 

exhausted

Active Member
Nancy,
My heart is with you and I wish I could comfort you. There is no doubt that you love that girl in the way only a mother could. When difficult child was at the private Residential Treatment Center (RTC), at least 1/2 of those kids were adopted. As a teacher I have had many adopted kids and fostered kids in my class over the years. I would agree that many, if not most seem to have more than normal struggles.

I have to tell you, it feels horrid to have a difficult child and know it was your own genes that have done the damage! While husband and I are not drug or alcohol users, diagnosed with any mental disorders, both our kids have diagnosis. husband and I have tried our darndest to be the kind of parents that would stop the crazy parenting that was part of both sides of our families. We thought we could turn generational issues around and stop the cycle.

My sister and mother both have mental illness and have varied diagnosis over the years. My mother is in complete denial at 72. My brother has one boy who is so out of control and has spent much time in jail and has 4 kids by different mothers and he is only 26!. My brother refused to medicate him when he was found to have ADHD (brother refused to believe it) and used physical punishment and humiliation-the old family legacy. We have never laid a hand on our children, been firm and structured, with love and involvement and our difficult child is headed on the same path as my brother's son.

My husband's family has depression and some alcoholism. I don't know what else as they are a very religious lot who puts many things in a closet.

If we would have known what we now know, we may have never had kids either. But at age 25 and again at 32, I wanted children and I believed mine would be just fine because husband and I were good people, educated, desirous, and not mentally ill or addicted. Yet here we are and the genes that may not have affected us, have been passed to our biological children.

Trauma, not inflicted by the family could trigger issues (as it has for us), gene combinations could cause issues. Children are a ****- shoot- Adopted or biological. The odds are worse in adoption. But 20 and 30 year old people do not have the knowledge or the forsight to think about these odds in most cases.

I tell myself everyday that no matter the outcome, they were sent here to earth and to us. Sometimes I ask what purpose God had in mind?? And in our misery (as raising these children is aweful-I can't imagine much worse frankly), what is it we are suppose to come out the other end knowing? Everything I do concerning difficult child I ask myself, "Can I live with this decision and in what way will it help or harm difficult child?" That is what parents do. However with difficult children-the stakes are so high. They involve their actual lives, jail, living on the streets, rape etc. etc....

Thank you for sharing your grief, because I have it as well and I don't want to be alone. If we cannot feel our pain and have bad days, what then? A huge hug to you.
 
S

Signorina

Guest
Thanks for saying that exhausted. Because (not to argue-meant as simpatico) sometimes I feel really guilty...and this is going to sound crazy ... and I feel like "at least adoptive parents have someone to blame" whereas H and I can only blame ourselves...or even worse...each other.

And I will stop confessing now...
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Exhausted thank you so much for your understanding and my heart goes out to you also. I too believed that my difficult child would be different and that whatever challenges we faced we could overcome with love and stability and good values and all the other things both you and I thought we were giving our children. It is so sad when the years pass and we look back and realize those challenges could not be overcome no matter what we did.

Until now I did believe we were helping difficult child, but now that we have absolutely no control over what she does and we can't save her and she is obviously doing her best to completely destroy her life, I question what effect we really had.

Hugs to you and to all of us,
Nancy
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Thanks for saying that exhausted. Because (not to argue-meant as simpatico) sometimes I feel really guilty...and this is going to sound crazy ... and I feel like "at least adoptive parents have someone to blame" whereas H and I can only blame ourselves...or even worse...each other.

And I will stop confessing now...
Sig...
There is more to this picture than nature and nurture.
Yes, those are two significant factors.
But there's also time and chance.

Accidents.
Medical issues (like Q, or Travis).
Abuse by someone outside the home.
Exposure to chemicals - intentional or not.

There are all sorts of things that are not and cannot be your fault - nor your childs, nor the biology.

Skip the blame game.
(But... we ALL do it, even over much more minor stuff... it really IS hard to just stuff the blame... been there done that too)
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I am so moved by what you all are saying. I cannot enter into the conversation on adoption, however, I did remember listening to a radio talk show about 10 years ago which really shocked me. The host asked the audience this question, "knowing what you now know about raising kids, if you could go back, would you do it again?" I thought to myself, 'well everyone is going to say, OF COURSE!' I wouldn't say that because as the mother of a difficult child, I would not do it. To my utter shock, every single person who called in said the exact same thing, "I love my child(ren)" then would go on with various statements about how much they do love their kids, but every one of them said, "NO, I would not do it knowing what I know." After that, I started asking parents the same question, (if it felt ok and was appropriate to ask) and except for a few, the absolute majority said no. I still have trouble believing it! I always thought I was completely alone in that feeling. And many if not most of the folks I asked had kids who were easy child's. I don't know really how much that truly reflects what most parents think,and I'm not suggesting it IS how most parents feel, however, I just thought it odd and quite surprising that so many responded that way. It makes me think that if parents of easy child's are answering that question with a 'NO" then that sure leaves those of us on this board in an unenviable place!
 
S

Signorina

Guest
OK -I am confessing again - and then I will zip my lip.

But when this happened initially with difficult child - when we were reeling in September - when I was still bawling every night - H and I went out to dinner. And he was giving his spiel about "just wanting his wife back" which I still don't understand and I was trying to explain how I felt like the world had collapsed beneath my feet. How everything I knew and believed about kids, about child raising, about unconditional love, about being a mother had completely collapsed, taking me with it.

And I said, "if I knew then, what I know now - I would've never had kids." And my H was crestfallen. He looked like I kicked him in the stomach and stole his car. He couldn't believe it. But I meant it, and I still mean it now. It never dawned on me that you could raise and love and be the best mom you could for 18 years and end up with an estranged, drug addicted, loser for a kid. I mean, "what was the point?" We were supposed to be near the finish line! And I don't like failure - I tried so hard to be a good mom and my eldest got the best of my mothering skills. And while I know I often short changed my job, and my h, and my house, and MYSELF, it was mostly because I was pouring it into my kids. And it didn't make a d@mn bit of difference because I ended up here. Both figuratively and literally .And if it could happen w him, that means it could happen with easy child 17 or PC15. Or it could happen when they are 25 or 35 or 45. What if there is NO FINISH LINE? And I think of DDD when I type this -{hugs}

So there. ;-p

shutting up now
 

rejectedmom

New Member
Pain is real and genuine for all us parents of difficult child's. I think that goes without saying. would I have kids again? Yeah I would, just not when I was so young (22) or so many. -RM
 
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Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
difficult child and I had this conversation tonight. I was talking to her about some of the stories from the board and she asked if I thought adoptive parents would have an easier time detaching from a substance abusing child than a biological parent.

I told her no, not at all. I know that every adoptive parent on this board loves their child unconditionally and feels the very same love as if they had given birth to that child.

However, I did tell her that adoptive parents probably don't have the same guilt that biological parents have. As others have already said better than I could, I live with the knowledge that my difficult child's problems are genetic and therefore came from husband and me.

However, even knowing that my husband's brother was an alcoholic and bipolar, it never occurred to me that my child could have those problems. And yet, that is exactly how she turned out. There are also alcoholics on my side of the family so I can't put all the blame on husband's side of the family.

In the end, though, all of us love our children and feel the same pain as we watch them struggle with mental illness and/or substance abuse.

~Kathy
 

rejectedmom

New Member
husband & I didn't know that mental illnes and addictive personalities were genetic when we started having kids. But even if we had there was always the strong possibility of not having a difficult child too. So why should any of us feel any guilt? We had our children in good faith that we would have normal healthy children who would grow into normal productive adults. We all did our very best to make that happen, often with great sacrifice to our own wellbeing. This is not our fault. -RM
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I was talking last night to two women in my support group. One has 3 adult kids, all in their 30's, all messed up with mental problems, the other has a son with bipolar and then there's me, the 'success story' with a kid who is 39 and lives in a room with 4 cats which is huge step above living in her car. Talk about lowering your expectations! I don't believe there is a finish line, that's been part of my detachment process. When I look down the road, I see my stepping in on occasion to assist my difficult child, for the rest of my life. I'm ok with that now, but I was not before.

I was just talking to my SO about this today. He has two grown sons, both wonderful people, great husbands and Dads, contributing members of society, loving people, doing very well in their lives. I said, "you know, I will never have that, I will never have that kind of an easy time where your sons call up and say, Hi Dad, what are you doing,and then you have an easy conversation and you get off the phone and because you know your son is handling his life and you trust that, you now go on with YOUR life. And you feel good." My relationship with my difficult child is just not easy. It's who she is. I've accepted that and I am not anguished by it. I will not have that sense of ease that my SO has when he deals with his kids.

I am detached, I am accepting, I am pretty removed actually. But I will never have what he has. I'm not yearning for it anymore, but because of the way it's been, how hard it's been, especially raising my daughter and my sister alone, I would make different choices if I had it to do over again. Maybe just as we all get older, out of the child bearing years, our priorities shift and we can look at it with clearer eyes, I don't know. I only know what my truth is. It's been a very long road. It really sucks the life out of you at times and if you go through it for a long time, your life suffers on every possible level. And, on top of all of that, you then have to detach and accept, which is a monumental task for a parent.

Interestingly, most of my best girlfriends are not mothers, they made that choice. I think a big part of me really envied them.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Sig you always say so well what I am feeling. It never dawned on me either that I could love this child with all my heart and be willing to put my life down for her only to find her estranged living the life of a drug addict doing things that are so against everything I believe and have no feelings whatsoever for her family. I just cannot comprehend being that way. And maybe that's why I can't detach because I find it impossible to understand.

Nancy
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Another issue that has come up due to difficult child being our biological child is that easy child says she doesn't want to have any children of her own. She is afraid that her children will turn out like difficult child.

Sadly, I can't even say that I disagree with her. Even worse, difficult child does want to have children someday. I can't think of a worse recipe for disaster.

Sometimes I daydream and wonder if there will ever be a miracle pill for our kids that will cure their addictions.

~Kathy
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Kathy I really hope my difficult child never has kids. She has a five year IUD now but I'm wishing we had done the 10 year one. I am terrified of her repeating this cycle. Hopefully she will decide on her own that children should not be in her future. At least we have this five year reprieve. My easy child is so against drinking because of what she has seen it do to people. She is very intollerant of it and of course she would have nothing to do with anyone who uses drugs. The addict certainyl does have a far reaching effect on those around her.

I use to look at people who chose not to have children and wonder why, and sometimes I would actually feel sorry for them. I now understand and applaud their well thought out decision. I have to say I would never ever adopt again and I would never recommend adopting to anyone else based on my experience. But my easy child has been such a pleasure that I would be hard to say I would never have kids again. I do think more extensive genetic counseling should be offered and addiction and mental illness history should be discussed along with the genetic predisposition involved.

I find it interesting that some want to require women to watch the heartbeat before an abortion but they don't require women to watch the destruction of a family due to addiction and mental illness that has been passed down.

Nancy
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
A therapist once told me that statistically, highly dysfunctional families have fewer children. I have 4 younger siblings and I am the only one who has a child! My difficult child has mental issues, and hopefully her daughter doesn't. I feel a certain moral responsibility to try as best I can to support my granddaughter in every way I can so that this cycle does not continue down my genetic heritage. I also used to cringe when my difficult child talked about having more children, OMG, hopefully those days are over now. My granddaughter has asked me if she will inherit these mental issues, I had to be honest and say, I don't know, BUT, her mother and my sister had already begun to exhibit odd behaviors by the time they were both 16 and she hasn't ,so perhaps she is safe. I didn't inherit the mental illnesses, but 2 out of 5 of us in my bio family did.

When I had my difficult child, I did not understand all the issues that could be inherited like I do now after years of research, truth telling in my family of origin and therapy, or I would not have had a child. My greatest wish is that my granddaughter grows up free of the family mental issues and if she opts to have kids, that they are free of it too. I just don't know though, she could have a difficult child of her own some day. What a thought.

I have always felt a very strong internal drive to heal myself and make every attempt to not let these mental problems continue down the line. I've educated my granddaughter with books and talks about mental illness, so that as she grows up, she can handle it with information and honesty instead of secrets and fear like my family did. She may, one day, have to confront these issues in herself or her children and my hope is that if she does, she is prepared and can get the help she would need without going through the horrors that I did, or her mother for that matter. In some ways, when I look back on it, it seems like that was my life's work, I was so committed to it. Perhaps that's why on so many levels now I am breathing a sigh of relief, just because my difficult child is at least for the moment, safely tucked away, and my granddaughter appears on all counts to be a healthy, normal teenager. Whew.

You know, I have been at this for what feels like my entire life, trying to understand, trying to cope, trying to be healthy and trying to have a fulfilling life, in spite of the cards I was dealt with mental illness as a central theme. Along the way, as I attempted to make sense of all of it, I read a lot of books, did a lot of research, talked to a lot of people, and in my looking so hard for answers, I read different philosophical, religious and spiritual books which offered some understanding and solace along the way. One thing I read years ago which made sense to me was a Buddhist concept of suffering and how it is such a part of life. The part that struck me though is that, in this particular context, the suffering has to have meaning, not simply suffering with all the pain and nothing else. I gave that a lot of thought and, for me, it made a certain amount of sense because I realized that all of that suffering instilled in me a depth of compassion and that compassion shifted my outlook. Really nothing external changed, life still was very difficult at times, but I got myself into environments where I felt connected to others in that we shared common life challenges. The connections with others, in that common ground, was something I really desired and it changed my life in many ways. Like this board to some degree, where the commonality of the issues bonds you in unique ways. I found that in other ways, and in fact seek that out now. I want that connection to others, and oddly, the pain and suffering in my life pushed me in that direction and I did find meaning in it. For me, that's made a world of difference. I think it made me realize, very young, that life, for me, is not about power, money, status, politics, or attaining the American Dream, it's about love, connection, service, sharing and whatever one's interpretation of a higher power is. These thoughts help a lot in those dark moments in the middle of the night and I guess we all find our different ways of getting through those.
 
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