scheming, lying and always trying for the scam

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by upallnight, Mar 3, 2015.

  1. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    In other words, up to his old tricks. I don't want to write a book here, I have to go to work. My married 28 yr old Difficult Child has ODD. He's changed after some difficult years involving a restraining order and cutting all ties. He works, got married, has kids. Doing well but always the Difficult Child close to the surface. So now him and his wife, she's 24 and just like him, are saying they're moving far away and actually are right now in the place they want to move (to get their ducks in a row). The kids are left at the house with some "Dude" friend of theirs, all their friends are instructed to "stop by" while they're gone. The kids are 6 months and 2 years old. Pathetic!
    Well 2 days ago he called husband and says he needs 10 grand! Ha! Of course we are not giving them that, especially since she buys a new M Khors bag every week and they gamble and waste every dime! IDIOTS!!!!
    Last night he called and started his little seed planting lie, that he owes the IRS 8 grand, his whole tax return, and boo hoo, how can he move? etc......THIS IS A LIE by the way.....I didn't call him on it....but now I am fuming and want to text him something vile.
    We spent a lot of money buying him a honeymoon 1 and a half years a go, 6 months ago husband co-signed a car loan for 22 grand...for a 10 year old car! husband is not that bright, but a good hearted person, and 2 years ago my brother who died, we gave him his truck which he sold for 6 grand and kept the money. OK. I am nothing but good to him and he is such an awful scammer, always trying to get one over and lie. So ungrateful, but this last thing is such a punch in the heart. He doesn't owe the IRS jack @#$%! Of course I am not giving him money, . Please stop me from sending a vile text I will regret, I need him to keep making the car payments, but maybe I should just call him on that, what do you think? Ps They both have menial jobs that they can't ever hold, if they get some know how it is.
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Sorry for all the pain. I'd cut the ATM off. He has already gotten too much money from you. If he owes the IRS, he'll pay them back, like the rest of us.

    I am not you and we are all different, but if it were me I'd call CPS on them if they left the kids with a stranger to make sure this "stranger" isn't falling asleep, high on drugs. Or maybe I'd just do a wellness check by the police.

    Again, I've been at this a lot longer than you, however your difficult honey is getting up there in age and should have matured by now. Getting married just gives them the chldren they can't raise, it doesn't mature them. IIt's up to you, but if he can't pay for the car, I'd let it go or he'll think you're going to bail him out forever. And for that he isn't even nice to you.

    You have two younger kids who are doing well. Why give money that could go to all of them just to difficult sweetie? Why do that to YOU?

    I would stop being so good to him and be that good to YOU and those loved ones and friends who treat you with respect. He is, as so many of our lovable darlings are, a mooch. Whatever you give him will be spent as HE wants to spend it, then he'll come back with his hand out again. And I have a question. Does he ever call you just to say, "Hi, Mom, I want to make sure you're ok. YOu and Dad doing well? Can I help you out by mowing the lawn? I want you to know I love you."

    Of course not.

    Think with your mind and not your heart, and forget the once little baby who cooed and was so cute. Your son is a man. He is old enough to have served our country, finished college, been almost ten years into his job, have his own house and certainly to stand on his own two feet. He is faling at it. And it's his choice, not your fault. Like so many of our kids, he's not a nice person.

    Detach, detach, detach...don't answer abusive texts, hang up if he is abusive over the phone, make him leave if he comes over in a rage...less is more with people like this. DO.NOT.ENGAGE. There is no point. Don't try to talk to him. He won't listen or care. He'll use anything you say, twist it, and throw it back at you and confuse/gaslight you. Best to use one word responses with them. Just minimize contact and cut off the ATM. You don't owe him any more money. If you feel he and daughter in law are neglecting grands, call CPS. They have to investigate if somebody calls and they don't give out the name of who called.

    I know it is easier said than done, but, in the end, what you are already doing isn't working. May as well start taking care of YOU since you can't control him. Big hugs!!!!
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  3. Echolette

    Echolette Well-Known Member

    Up all night,

    It sounds like you are stuck in the role of ATM machine. It ia always hard to stop that..we can't imagine how our kids will manage if we aren't there to bail them out, we feel it somehow isn't fair to stop what they are used to , we think they will suddenly come to appreciate what we have done for them, and move forward wisely. That is the biggest myth of all.

    What they learn from is having to do things and figure things out on their own.

    I LOVE the posts that Headlights Mom has been listing..something like "setting boundaries doesn't mean limiting love."

    Set some boundaries. Stop giving Don't send the angry doesn't help. If you can withdraw the financing a little, that might help with your anger.

    This relationship has become destructive to can control that aspect of it.

    MWM gave you really good advice.

    Good luck. We are here to listen.

  4. DoneDad

    DoneDad Active Member

    Sorry you're going through this, and I definitely understand the anger over being treated so disrespectfully by your own child. To realize that, in their eyes, we're just suckers who they will lie to and con to get money is a very hard reality to look into. I've been there done that and I even got the T-shirt. You obviously need to guard your heart and your wallet in this situation.

    The angry text won't help anything. It will just give him fuel to try to manipulate you and hubby even more. (This shows you don't love me. You never loved me. If you loved me you'd give me 10K. Poor me. Everything is your fault. BLAH BLAH BLAH).

    Try to get on the same page with hubby- you say hubby co-signed car loan and Difficult Child called hubby for the 10K. Difficult Child knows who the softie is and will focus his attention there. If you send nasty text, Difficult Child could use it to drive a wedge between you and hubby. Set boundaries with hubby - if you give him more money, I'm setting up separate bank accounts to protect my finances. If you consign any more loans, I'll have to consider divorce to protect myself from your poor decisions.

    And do what your conscience tells you is right to protect those grand babies.

    Good luck and keep posting.
  5. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    First - Don't send the text - it will make you feel better for just a moment in time but truly, they will get nothing out of it. Second, if I were in your position, I would get the car back and sell it for whatever you can get out of it.
    By the way - once children with ODD become adults - the diagnosis is Anti-social Personality disorder or being a sociopath. It's a horrible diagnosis and the disorder will continue to consume not only you, your family but everyone that stays involved with him. He is going to use whoever he can squeeze something out of because that is what a sociopath does, uses and abuses people. They have a total disregard of the feelings of others.
    From the Mayo Clinic:
    Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental condition in which a person's ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are dysfunctional — and destructive. People with antisocial personality disorder typically have no regard for right and wrong and often disregard the rights, wishes and feelings of others.
    Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

    • Disregard for right and wrong
    • Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
    • Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
    • Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
    • Recurring difficulties with the law
    • Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
    • Child abuse or neglect
    • Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
    • Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
    • Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
    • Poor or abusive relationships
    • Irresponsible work behavior
    • Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior
    Antisocial personality disorder symptoms may begin in childhood and are fully evident for most people during their 20s and 30s. In children, cruelty to animals, bullying behavior, impulsivity or explosions of anger, social isolation, and poor school performance may be, in some cases, early signs of the disorder.

    Although considered a lifelong disorder, some symptoms — particularly destructive and criminal behavior and the use of alcohol or drugs — may decrease over time, but it's not clear whether this decrease is a result of aging or an increased awareness of the consequences of antisocial behavior.

    Those with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others either harshly or with callous indifference. They may often violate the law, landing in frequent trouble, yet they show no guilt or remorse. They may lie, behave violently or impulsively, and have problems with drug and alcohol use. These characteristics typically make people with antisocial personality disorder unable to fulfill responsibilities related to family, work or school.

    Sorry to hear you have so much on your plate. I have had to deal with my daughter is is a sociopath and it is really tough to get to a point where you understand that it is them they really are like that and no, it is not your fault. Look around your family, his fathers family to clues who he acts like to see where this horrific DNA based behavior is coming from.
  6. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    If you feel the need to write a text, write it out in a Word document, save it (or not), and don't send it anywhere. You'll at least get your feelings out that way. I agree that sending a text will accomplish nothing but a momentary relief for you - get that relief but pounding it out on your computer keyboard but not sending it via phone or email :)
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  7. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    To MWM's observation, I would add that if your son had prepared himself as you and your husband made provision for him to do ~ an education, establishment of credit, a secure home base with both parents behind him ~ he would need nothing from you today.

    It seems to D H and I that when the kids have not been able to make it with our assistance, then our job as parents has to be to step away. Let them flounder while you are still here to step in if something dire happens. But tax problems, a new car, entry level jobs and gambling debts, none of that is dire. Even homelessness is not dire. Not being able to recover from homelessness ~ that would be dire, maybe would be a time to step in.

    Or to take the kids.

    Whatever it takes, we have to get the kids to a place of independence. If that means they live lives lower down on the social scale than we were prepared to help them achieve, that is their lesson. They will never be able to pick up if we are always picking up for them.

    We told our son some time back that there would be no money.

    I am so proud of him for the way he picked up and got going. We have not given him a cent since that time and though he has had some tough times, he made it through on his own. Because he respects himself more now, he is no longer resentful or demanding with us.

    What we said first was: No money.

    There will be no more money.

    You won't get a chance to explain about independence or detachment theory or anything else, because he will probably stop talking to you (ours did).

    But our son is coming through it. Is claiming his manhood.

    You will feel so wrong not to help. We did, too. We still do. But it is true what they say, that helping is not helping. Consequences will teach the kids how to choose who they will be. They need to do this, or they will not be able to steer their own courses in the world.

    It isn't a good place for a parent to be. I am not proud of saying "no". I lose sleep over it...but I am doing it, and it is helping my son to stand up. We are staying out of our daughter's life, too. There are bitter accusations and demands. So far, we are handling it.

    I am sorry this is happening to you, too.


  8. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    Too late. I'm not sorry either. I'm not engaging him now. You are right and the truth hurts.Too bad.
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Well, you did it. It's done. Don't expect him to take the blame for his actions. His lack of acting even as mature as some fourteen year olds will not hit him in the face. He will blame you. Somehow you caused his life to be horrible and thus you owe him a new car, a new house, a weekly salary, benefits, and a vacation in the Bahamas (and money to spend while they are there). And you'd better be nice about it!!!!

    Garbage is how they think.


    I wouldn't even read his response. These days, if my son gets angry at me and texts me, I never read it and I don't even feel the urge to do so. I just delete the texts when I get to my phone and leave it all go unread. Too bad.
  10. Childofmine

    Childofmine trying to do this thing one day at a time Staff Member

    Up all night,

    The good news in your post is that they are planning to move away from where you live. I hope that happens, for your sake.

    As soon as you can, as others have said: Stop the flow of money.

    No more money, no more cars, no more co-signing, no more nothing. Approach him, when you want to, with nothing but your empty hands, open. Nothing but your words of love and encouragement.

    Often, when that is all we offer, either they distance themselves and we don't hear from them for a while, they become more abusive or they start to change.

    It takes tremendous self-control and self-will. If your husband is the one who "keeps on giving," ask him to read this site, go to an Al-Anon meeting with you or read some literature on codependency. He needs to learn how much he is not only damaging his own future, but that it is not going to change a thing about your son.

    The chance for change will come when everybody stops.

    That is the hardest lesson of all for us to learn. It sounds like you are already there. And I understand your anger, but as others have said, once you release your anger, there is once again no chance for him to learn something from the silence.

    I finally realized that the dance of anger we were doing just prolonged the pattern. Once I stopped, and there was silence and nothing but love and kindness and space and time and distance, he had to start looking inward. He could no longer blame me because I wasn't dancing the dance with him anymore. No partner, and you're just dancing by yourself.
  11. Nikimoto

    Nikimoto Pursuit of peace

    First of all, hi, I am sorta new to this forum. Second of all, I will try not cuss or get censored, but your son and daughter in law are infuriating! My first thought is for those babies, and calling cps based on what hey even told you, even if you can't see inside their home for yourself. Second, please protect yourself. The cosigned valuables really belong to you and you have every right to contact the lender and sort out something you can do to protect your assets in the event he defaults.
    I told my elder three kids long ago to decide what they want in life and work for it. I will never afford to fund anything for them except for gifts I choose to give, and I will never bail them out of anything, not even jail, not even once. Have two very responsible adult kids, and one very problematic son who sounds to fit the ODD description.
    Do what you can to put your household first, and protect the grandkids the best you are able, and tell that nearly 30 year old man no. It's a perfectly good answer.
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