Seeking advice on eviction or rental

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Heloise, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Hello, I am new to this group. My husband and I are wondering what to do.

    Our daughter just turned 19 (was radical attachment disorder; now antisocial personality disorder, dissociative identity disorder, delusions, and mixed episodes of manic/depressive combined). She cycles between two states -- usually a few days with some mood control and sane reasoning (she kept this up once for 3 months, the only time of any length); then several days or even weeks with no mood control and a raw display of antisocial personality disorder and delusional thinking. In the more reasonable state, there is a thread of conversation and behavior that goes on there – picking up where it left off, like you’ve left a bookmark in Book A. It's the same for the smoldering disordered state (like M/D combined), there is a thread of conversation and behavior that goes on there – picking up where it left off, like a bookmark in Book B. She can often hide the worse state in public to stay cool, but she doesn't compare the two states.

    We adopted her at 3 from Bulgaria; her behavior was off course from day 3 and has disrupted our lives, especially mine, with violence, aggression, assaults, cruelty, threats, deviousness, you name it. It seems I and others have tried everything in our power. We just see more of the same (so unpleasant). She’s quit high school recently, and we would like her to live elsewhere, so long as she resists working on anything. While her Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) diagnosis as a child didn't lend itself to medication, I’ve asked her to consider mood-stabilizing medication, and she is vacillating and negative about this.

    We are considering eviction or renting her somewhere to live. We think eviction is reasonable. She has nowhere to go, and I have some concern about retaliation. If we rent her a place, she might need a place to herself, as there is the question of how she would get along with someone else when she’s in the “Book B” mode on home turf. She feels entitled to anything she wants. We live in a high-rent metropolitan area; she has a part-time minimum-wage job, runs through money, and has weak educational and executive skills. She needs to live close by to walk to work; she has no drivers permit (I've thought it safer overall), and no with buses. She convinced an acquaintance to let her drive his truck around in traffic last week. She is determined to get a car one way or another.

    To compound it all, my husband’s ex involves herself in the name of looking out for child number 2 – 24 year-old “Paul,” living with her since 2008, diagnosed with bipolar or schizoaffective bipolar at 19. She has disparaged my husband to their two sons (the one who’s 24 and one who’s 29) for as long as I have been in the picture, and has told Paul and our daughter that I have no mothering skills for at least five years. I’ve spoken to her about it to no avail. Paul has now adopted her attitude and texts/calls our daughter with reasons why mostly I and also my husband are responsible for the way she has turned out, and how this upsets him, which upsets his mother. He says I should admit to our daughter and all that I have been misguided as a mother. The elder son who is 29 is married and expecting a baby, and he and his wife seem happier staying at a distance from this all.

    Naturally we would like some peace. We could be content by ourselves and with friends, if it goes that way.

    Do you have any advice on evicting versus renting? An eviction notice has already been served, and we could go to court any day. Thank you in advance for your replies!

  2. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am confused. before i can offer advice, I need to ask some things.

    First off, is it your husband who is telling your daughter and this other child that you are a bad mom and responsible for all the problems? Or is it your ex or husband's ex or one of your ex's new partners or another child?

    While retaliation is always going to be a possiblity, exactly how violent/unsafe do things get when your daughter is not in rational mode? Has she hurt you? Damaged property? Hurt/abused animals? If she cannot live by the rules in your home, she needs to not live in your home.

    Have you looked into what eviction entails? You may consider getting a restraining order if she is likely to retaliate against you. Retaliation usually takes the line of threats/assault/destruction of property.

    As parents you have likely done all you can to keep her from getting involved with the police - this is usually one of our jobs as parents. Sadly, the warrior parents of difficult children often have to realize and accept that what our difficult children do to us when they are upset, angry or just in the mood to hurt someone/something often entails actions that NO ONE else is going to tolerate. To help your child learn to live in the world successfully, it may be necessary to let her deal with the legal ramifications of her retaliation, taking others' things, hurting people, etc....

    It is a tough choice, but if your daughter is living at home with all the benefits of a nice, comfortable lifestyle and is just working a part time minimum wage job and not going to school, then she needs to be out of your home and on her own. If you rent a place for her then YOU are responsible for paying the bills. ALL of them. She is going to want and likely demand all the comforts of YOUR home. She has to learn that if she wants them then she has to earn them and pay for them. It is a hard concept for many difficult children to learn.

    If she wants to work for minimum wage only part of the time, and play the rest of the time, then she really needs to go out into the world and live on the money she makes. It is the only way that she has a chance to learn that if she wants more she needs to work more.

    This is HARD. You may not even know where she is some of the time. Letting her live at home and play with no real world responsibilities is not helping her. No way will it be easy for you and your husband. If these other people are so sure you did so many things wrong, maybe they should have her live with them.

    SHE needs to handle her lease. You can give advice if asked for and you think it is appropriate, but do not sign anything for any financial agreement.

    If she has problems and does not want your help when given on YOUR terms, then it is time for her to go to all of those people who know how you should have done things as her parent. let THEM cosign, pay for stuff, etc...

    I am sorry you are dealing with all of this. If what I suggest is too harsh, or expects her to handle things she is not capable of due to some disability, then adjustments should be made.

    Many of us here use techniques from a book called "the explosive child" by Ross Greene. It is written for parents of younger people, but the techniques work on people of all ages. It may be helpful to you.

    We also often use a philosophy called "Do to Get". It is simple (not from a book - another mom came up with the phrase). It means if the difficult child wants something then they have to work to get it. We don't give them things - they earn them. It isn't just a financial thing - not just work a job to earn the money to get whatever.

    If the child wants to have friends over for a cookout, the child needs to work around the house so that it is clean and to help pay for the cost of the cookout. The work can be whatever the parent wants.

    I hope that you are able to protect yourself and help your daughter learn and grow and take care of herself.
  3. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I read it as her husband's ex telling this about their supposed lack of skills to the son they have in common, who then tells daughter of Heloise and husband.
  4. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Yes, that is exactly right. It is my husband's ex who is telling the son they have in common about our lack of skills, who then passes it along to our adopted daughter. Also, when I reached out to this ex and the rest of the extended family 4 years ago to support us in our challenges with our daughter, -- the ex responded by calling my daughter several times when she got home from school (when I was still at work) and sympathizing with her and telling her that I had no mothering skills. My daughter has a marvelous transparency, and told me about it. Unfortunately, my daughter then used that phrase repeatedly for a year or so when talking with me.
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Welcome to the board. I'm glad you found us.

    Wow. You've really got the cat by the tail. As I read your post it ran through my mind that this is exactly why we need long term care facilities available.

    I can certainly understand why you're wanting your daughter to leave your home and the hope to have some peace. I really do get the eviction thing. And I think it is probably a very good idea. But with the renting her a place......that brings up a whole new set of issues.....which I'm sure you've given some thought to.

    You might check with county mental health ect and see if there are some half way house type services that might actually help your daughter more since she can't maintain book A persona for very long at a shot. Most of these places offer supervision while still allowing residents to live independently.

    I know you said you had her diagnosed as a child ect, but is she in any sort of treatment now or is she against it?

    So lovely for the ex to make comments on your parenting. blech Like her opinion matters. And honestly dear, not one of us here are perfect. Not one. We all have made mistakes, will probably make more mistakes from time to time........our children don't come with a handbook. We're forced to wing it with whatever knowledge and experience we have and just do the best we can.

    While I'm all for offering an apology for a mistake....even to my kids.......I'm not sure what it is your husband thinks this is going to do for your child? Odds are pretty solid that those of her disorders that aren't genetic are due to her background before the adoption. Doubtful that your parenting skills are totally to blame, if at all. You obviously care for your child, you sought help when you saw there was a problem, and even now with as bad as her behavior is, although you want her out of your home you're still considering even renting a place for her.

    As an adult, unfortunately, you can't force her into treatment ect. Hoovers. But she has to decide to do that on her own. You can't force her to do squat........also hoovers, because at least when there kids you can pull the Because I Said So card. ugh

    Other parents have delt with this issue and I'm sure they'll be along to offer advice. I just wanted to offer you a warm welcome.

  6. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Hello susiestar,

    It is my husband's ex who is the criticizer.

    When my daughter is irrational, it has been bad enough that I had her arrested twice. The arrests came after many years of assaults, when she was finally too big for me to outmanuver her any more. The first arrest I didn't press charges, even though she had me in lock hold after a major kick in the shin. The second time I was obligated to press charges because it was the second time, and that involved thrusting me into a closed door to produce a bruised rib. The assaults began shortly after she arrived in our home at 3 and 1/2. If I had to put a number on the assaults where she aimed at me and made contact, I would say 40 or more. The number of times she threw something and missed, 20. The number of times she has muscled me out of her way in a room or the hall, I would say 300 or more. Gruesome verbal threats, numerous. Generalized creepy verbal threats, more numerous. Pantomimed threats, several. Helping her with homework and having her aim her pencil at my eye without it leaving her hand, 150. When she was younger, kicking my carseat from the back while I was driving, 50. Recently telling me, while cocking her brother's old paint gun she found under a bed, that she is interested in doing a little research on paint guns with a creepy look on her face to evoke a reaction from me, once (I took the gun away). Property damage has been pronounced --holes in walls, broke the glass in the kitchen door, scraped the car, gouged a new handrail with a knife, shattered our bedroom lamp, destroyed her artwork displayed in the dining room -- these were all intentional. Then there is the damage that occurs when she just slams things and sweeps things off surfaces. The animals -- when she was younger, she slammed the cat into an interior wall. In a rational state, she can very affectionate with the cat and the dog; in an irrational state, she can take one hostage during an argument (pretending to protect them from me, cooing an apology to them), be unnecessarily rough with them, be very jealous of them, and very critical of them saying we treat them way too well.

    Yes, I've looked into what eviction entails. She's been served, we've had our waiting period, I would next go to court file a demurrer and get a hearing, after which we change the locks and give her 24 hours to collect her things, after which we would set them out if she hadn't collected them.

    I would also note that in her irrational state she is very nihilistic, talks about dying to an abnormal degree, and talks about fearing the pain. (She has made no real attempt at suiicide; she used to threaten it from time to time to watch me squirm. When her one boyfriend finally broke things off, she posted a suicide note on Facebook that generated calls from concerned strangers.) She used to talk about the possibility of committiing a crime that could entitle her to be in jail to get the meals and a place to stay. If she contemplates being assaulted, she envisions fighting back. She has involved herself in a cult that predicts the end is next year, a point she explains in unpleasant detail quite a bit when she is in an irrational state. I will say, there are times I just put headphones on to convey I am not listening.

    She already left home for two months this past fall and lived with cult members. I tended to hear from her on nearly a daily basis. Also, the times when she lives at home and goes to the cult, she travels by bike and the return trip is five miles in the dark after midnight. We have some experience under our belt in not knowing where she is.

    Excellent reminder about having her sign any lease. I will say that husband and I were thinking it would add to the appeal for a landlord knowing that we would be paying the rent. I like your point better, though. She is not interested in making any effort to find a reantal place, although she talks constantly about her desire to move out.

    Yes, we are familiar with the Explosive Child by Ross Greene. I love the do to get concept. Our daughter has been rather nihilistic from the beginning, and has long forgone getting things if the requirement was doing something.

    I hope this has illuminated our situation better.

    Appreciate your post and look forward to any additional thoughts,

  7. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Hound dog,

    Yes, we agree it is exactly why we need long term care facilities.

    Our daughter is distainful of the idea of going to a half-way house. The concept of Section 8 housing sounds like a hassle to her. I applied for Social lSecurity Supplemental Income benefits for her, and during the examination she said she didn't need any help. My daughter has refused to go to our therapist for the last two years; I continue to go. I even checked on involuntary commitment, and came up empty. The local care facility said they would come to the home, make an evaluation and, if they were convinced (my daughter is excellent, though, at telling people what they want to hear), take her away and then I would need to appear in court within two days. At that point, if the judge were convinced, she could be held for at most 30 days and the facility would be free, if they felt it appropriate, to release her the next day after the court hearing. This issue is being fought out in the State capitol, with strong feelings on both sides. Basically, there is no involuntary commitment in VA.

    Thank you for the warm welcome, it is wonderful to be in a supportive environment!

  8. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    You said that when you applied for disability that your dtr told them there was nothing wrong with her but did you have back up paperwork from doctors stating that there was in fact, mental health disorders present? I cannot imagine that your daughter is the only person who has a mental illness who is convinced that they are well and its everyone else who is That really is kind of common.

    If you can get any of those FB posts where she is threatening harm to either herself or others OR tape her threatening to hurt someone, I would take that and call an ambulance and have her sent to the state bed and breakfast immediately. If they can see her for longer than a few days, most likely they will see both A and B come out. That should help with the disability. If you can get that, you may be able to get into low income housing. Also maybe you can get some sort of case manager to oversee her daily living needs. Take a ton of the work off of you.
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    I do agree with Janet on if you have the paperwork to back up the dxes/symptoms ect I'd show them to social most people who are severely mentally ill rarely believe they are, I'm sure they've have experience with it before. And definately if I ever saw evidence that indicates she may hurt herself or others via fb or anything else I'd use it against her for at the very least a 72 hr hold. Doesn't matter if you believe she will or not, it may be what you need to convince others how affected by her dxes she truly is.

    Hmm. I'm not sure you can do this once a child has already reached adulthood. But my son in law's mother fostered a teen who was severely affected by her mental illness, so much so that on her 18th birthday the state decided that she would forever remain a ward of the state and remain under trained supervision. Not in a hospital, because I'm not even sure if our state has any type of real long term facility, but in foster homes with adults trained to care for her........which is not much training but better than nothing which is what she would've had otherwise. You might see if something such as this would be available.....if the state found her incompetent to be able to live on her own. I'd never even heard of this ever being done until it was done with this foster child.

    This is what really makes me mad with our so called "modern" methods of treating mental illness. Somewhere along the lines we managed to forget that there are those who are so mentally ill that they simply are not able to function within society. Then the families of these people are left to deal with it as best as they can........which is nearly impossible because services are limited and with an adult you usually have to get them to agree to such services, unless you can get a court to take it out of your hands. Here in ohio many of these people wind up wards of the state and are placed in nursing homes.......yes, a scary thought that, but there is no where else for them to go.

    Unfortunately, about all you can do is to make sure you and the rest of the family is safe. Unless there is reason for the state to step in, you can't force your daughter to do anything. The choices are hers to make, no matter how bad they are. Stinks, but that is the way it is. I'm thinking if you rent some place for her to stay that not only rent, you'll be responsible for any damages to the apartment as well.......or if she skips out on the lease ect. If she has no income are you also willing to pay for utilities and food? What about clothing? Furnishings? I can see that blooming into so many other things.....and can imagine her response if you tell her no on these things most likely. So I'd try to make a list of all the pros and cons before coming to that decision and see if it really is worth it, or if it is only going to cause more of the same old same old. (I'm guessing you're dealing with some entitlement issues too probably)
  10. elizabrary

    elizabrary Member

    As I read all of this my biggest concern is the physical and mental safety of you and the rest of your family. Your daughter has been holding your family hostage and that has to stop. I'm no expert at detachment, but I've become much better at it and I have found that when I start focusing on myself and my own health and well-being, rather than the health and well-being of my difficult child, I feel much better and am able to start to see the situation more objectively. When I find myself getting sucked into my daughter's insanity I stop and ask myself if I would let anyone else treat me this way- usually the answer is no, so I have to hang up the phone, walk away, whatever. When I am about to do something to "help" her I ask myself if this is something she can do on her own if she chooses- the answer is nearly always yes, so again I have to step out of the situation. It is hard and it has taken me years to get to this point, but right now I am the healthiest, most peaceful I have ever been. And yes, I do worry about her all the time, but that doesn't mean I should enable her or risk my own health and happiness.

    I know how hard this is. Hang in there and do something nice for yourself!
  11. AHF

    AHF Member

    I have little to add to all the other wisdom here except this. If you DO decide to rent her a place, try to find some way in which you are listed as the main tenant rather than merely the co-signer. This allows you to sublet the place if she moves out, so you're not liable for the remainder of the lease. It also affords you a set of keys. This is not a good alternative--I agree with everyone else here, a halfway house would be far preferable--but if you cannot bear to evict her, then you want a situation where at least you have some financial control. Good luck.
  12. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Social Security disapproved our application for benefits. My therapist was ill and could not submit the written statement needed. So we had an hour with the SS-hired psychologist. Since she had not quit school yet, the school got to submit a statement, too, which was not helpful.

    I would agree with you that she can not be the only person with a mental illness who can tell people what they want to hear to convince them she's sane and the victim of circumstances. The budgetary and political incentives in VA for dismissing evidence of personality disorder seem to be rather strong. There is no possibility of long-term care in VA. They have gotten rid of it.

    What are FB posts?

    The challenge for my daughter is her cocktail of fatalism and entitlement. The idea of accepting assistance or protection -- whether it's for Socail Security benefits, assisted housing, halfway houses or paperwork -- enrages her when in State B and makes her threatening. Other people just get apartments and cars, and so should she.

    Appreciate your input,


  13. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Hound dog, you lay it out well. Providing her with rented housing is unlikely to extract us from the same old situation. We can't force her to do anything. It appears we are dealing with a person who is not in shape to deal with society, for whom there is no social safety net, not even a nursing home. No matter who we convince, there is no authority who can act. Even if we were to pay a mental hospital on an indefinite basis, they will not take her.

    Our list of pros and cons gets us to eviction. The question is, do we need to try rental first, to save our reputation?

    Thank you for your input,

  14. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Aw sweetie, honestly? After dealing with my katie who is not to the degree of your daughter........well I think maybe she's not but one can never be sure as I've been practicing detachment with her for more than a decade........I'd say no. Simply due to the it's going to be more of the same only probably with even more drama as there are going to be other people involved as well.......and in the end you simply lose money in the process.

    The biggest problem in raising mentally ill children is that society is never going to truly ever understand what it is like simply because they don't live the day in and day out with it. People will judge you no matter what decision you make, and many of them harshly simply due to ignorance/lack of experience. Bottom line is that you have to do what in your heart and mind you feel is right for you and that you can live with. Your daughter is an adult you have no control over now. But you have control over what life you live at this point and you can make choices that make your life more peaceful and happy. It doesn't make you a bad person to want to do so. You've certainly earned it.

    I stopped worrying over my reputation years ago. I know there are people who wonder why I don't jump in and help katie........and I'm sure she's telling people some wild stories as to why I'm not. But I don't worry about those things. I can't control that. I can only control my own life and what I will and will not tolerate in it.

  15. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I would go forward with the eviction, given what you have said. Fb posts are the things posted on facebook about suicide. You can print those off and they are proof of her mental state. I would keep them in a file.

    You can also reapply for disability or appeal. Most are turned down the first time. Some even the second or third time.

    At this point you are highly unlikely to get any help until she has been on her own and failed. Let her go figure it out for herself. Others don't just "get" apartments and cars - they work and they earn them. She is going to have to be on her own for a while to figure this out. That while is going to be a lot longer for her than for many others and is going to be really hard on you.

    She can go with her cult for a while, but when she has no resources they are going to expect her to work or throw her out. She may go along with their demands and they may take care of her while she does. That is her choice. She may live on couches of friends for a while. Eventually they will get tired of her and throw her out. When she leaves give her a typed lsit of shelters and their phone numbers, food banks, community care agencies, free clinics, etc.... WHen she calls you for help (or shows up) make it clear that you will not do things for her that she can do for herself. this includes providing food, transportation, etc... if she could choose to work and do these things.

    You will need to thinkabout medical care. Will you keep her on your insurance, but make her pay the copays herself? Will you pay for her to get mental health care - therapy, psychiatrists, medications? If you pay for medications will you pay for those that can be addictive, like xanax and other benzos? Or will you only pay for other medications like mood stabilizers, risperdal (antipsychotic that reduces aggression), etc...?

    One big issue for parents of daughters is birth control? What if she gets pregnant? One way that many women, esp mentally ill ones, think is an easy way to get cash is prostitution. Or finding a guy to be her boyfriend who will support her. What will you do if she gets pregnant? Pay expenses for the baby? Raise the baby yourself because she won't be able or fit? Help her raise the baby with financial or other support - and watch the baby for signs of abuse/neglect? Will you pay for birth control? If yes, would you pay for a daily pill that can be lost or forgotten, or insist on the depo shot or birth control implant or IUD? What if she wants an abortion?

    This is a big issue. Personally I would pay for the depo shot or IUD or implant but not a daily or weekly pill - they are too easy to forget or lose. With the pill she would have to take it at the same time every day because being off just a couple of hours can result in pregnancy. The depo provera shot has to be redone every few months, so you would have to keep getting her to the doctor, which may be problematic, esp if she demands a bribe or reward to go with you. It is why I would push for the implant.

    the current impant is called Impanon - a single, flexible 40mm long piece of plastic with progesterone that will prevent pregnancy for 3 years. It is effective 99% of the time if implanted correctly. There is no way to "mess it up" or forget. I would think this would give you the most piece of mind.

    Your reputation does NOT require you to rent an apartment for her. those who believe you have done the best you could are your friends and know that you have been a great parent to a very disturbed person. Those who would badmouth you will do so regardless of what you do or don't do. Renting an apartment and supporting her for the rest of her life would NOT stop the badmouthing people from saying what they will say. Nothing will stop them and it has nothing to do with you.

    Elizabrary is right - it is time to stop her hold on your family. You have been hostage to her mental illness and choices for long enough. Do what is best for YOU and always hold your head up because you have doen the right thing. Believe it or not, sending her out on her own IS the right thing - even for her. Unless she falls she won't learn to pick herself up and try again. She also won't demonstrate her need for support from disability until seh has tried and failed to make it on her own.

    I am sorry that you have had to handle all of this. You have done a great job and are a loving caring great mom. Your ex and his wife are fools and if they think they are so much better then they can invite her to live with them and they can "fix" her.
  16. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    Hound dog, you really got to me with that intro. It's getting clearer to me. While there is reason to be concerned in an eviction scenario about how my daughter will stay alive and respect others' safety, simply getting an apartment doesn't solve a tremendous amount.

    Thank you.

  17. Heloise

    Heloise Guest

    susiestar, thank you so much. I am definitely getting out of this thread what I came here for. Your checklist is really helpful. First and foremost, getting that implant! I just wrote myself several reminders and put them in various places. This is so important.

    She used up a couple friends' hospitality when she left us for two months in the fall. I don't know who she has left to ask for sleeping privileges, and I guess that will be for her to figure out. Good reminder about giving her a list of shelters and so forth.

    We'll keep her on our medical insurance, -- that information about which medications are addictive is certainly helpful.

    Yes, Elizabrary is right, it is time to for husband and I to release ourselves from the hold she has had on us. (It is husband's ex, and their son in common, who criticize; husband is still by my side.)

    Thank you for the validation; it means a lot coming from you and all here who have been on this path. I cannot begin to say how helpful this experience has been.


  18. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am glad that we have been able to help you see some of the various things that are involved. THIS is the place wehre you will find people who understand and will be supportive when no one or very few in your "real" life have even a small clue about what life with her is life. Stick around as you go through this - we all need support when things are this hard and complicated.
  19. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    Tons of great advice here: I wish my sister would read this thread of posts (she won't--massively in denial, would rather throw money at the problem than admit its severity, and has spent 18 years spoiling her difficult child rotten and isn't going to stop soon). For her, simply subsidizing her difficult child in a cheap apartment, paying the rent, paying for groceries, giving him a car and gas allowance and a small cash allowance is cheaper than sending him to Residential Treatment Center (RTC) or rehab, so she accepts the expense as the "cost of doing business" with a difficult child child. Of course, you can only do this if you're loaded and if you don't care about ever getting the difficult child off your dole and onto the rails of adulthood. But I think she's largely given up and sees this as the easiest/simplest route, at least for now. I agree with all of you that it's much more important to push them out and let them make their mistakes, maybe even bad mistakes, but at least have a shot at learning and becoming, however gradually, self-reliant. It may not work at all, and very bad things can happen along the way--even prison and death, if it goes that far--but at least it's an attempt at steering the difficult child toward some dim semblance of maturity. Better to try and risk failure than to make no attempt at all, I think.