She got fired.

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
The DBT program she started once before believes that substance abuse issues are intertwined with the mood/personality disorder and treats them both. She wasn't living here last time that she started the program and got money to live on under the pretense of going to school so she quit going after three weeks.

She wouldn't have a choice now if she wanted to keep our help. They seemed to think that after a month or two people buy into the treatment program and will want to continue. I don't think my difficult child gave it a chance last time. I do know that studies show that it is the most promising therapy for people with those kinds of issues.

I think if we don't do it I will always wonder if it could have helped her. It is a year long program with one hour private counseling and a three hour group session per week. They strictly follow the Lineham protocal.

But . . . am I just reaching for straws? Burying my head in the sand?

difficult child just told us that she is willing to use her paychecks to pay for the first month. But if she doesn't stick with it then she has nothing to live on.

My head is spinning.

~Kathy
 

Calamity Jane

Well-Known Member
Hi Kathy,
I think your daughter needs to really, truly understand that both her mental illness and sobriety issues are going to be chronic, life-long issues that she alone must be committed to facing. It will take enormous effort every single day of her life - she will need therapy and counseling and medication, and will need to attend sobriety meetings, too. That's a huge commitment - can she do it day after day, while still holding down a job and an apartment? That's the $64,000 question. The only way to start is one day at a time, but for sure, this has/will affect your family always, no matter where difficult child lives. To use a cliche, she has to want it more than you want it for her. The classic difficult child problem is boring, challenging, repetitive, soul-searching, sober, predictable existence is just not their cup of tea for more than a few months at a time.
 
S

Signorina

Guest
I think if we don't do it I will always wonder if it could have helped her.[/COLOR]

I think you have your answer. Listen to your heart.

{hugs}

(as far as employment law - it is not illegal to give a bad reference. In right to work states, (not all states are "right-to-work", many are "employee at will") interfering with an employees ability to get work is a civil violation. In any state a deliberate, malicious and willful attempt to prevent someone from getting employment is grounds for a civil lawsuit. Which is why most employers will do nothing but verify dates and length of employment. Some employers are actually being sued for giving a good reference for a bad employee - so it's a double edged sword. For instance, your difficult child's employer could say she was fired due to company policy and it would be the truth. My guess is he will say nothing. She should state it was a bad fit and leave it at that.)
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Gosh, these difficult child's are all so complicated! I'm sorry Kathy, I know how the head spinning goes, clearly you're between a rock and a hard space. To give you another perspective, hopefully it doesn't make it more confusing......my adult difficult child is not a substance abuser, she is (simply) mentally ill. The issue I deal with on a continual basis is where is the line with a person who really cannot deal with reality and doesn't have the mental capacity nor the tools to live a 'normal' life? Yes, she could get diagnosed which, like many mentally ill people, she refuses to do. And, statistically speaking, many with a diagnosis and medications either take the medications and then stop or never take the medications. Having so many mentally challenged relatives, I've listened to them tell me the reasons they don't take medications, and I really can't fault them for it. I am not in those shoes, but I know for one person, my sister, who has dual diagnosis, on medications all her creativity is gone and she is an artist, so what she lives and breathes and loves and is her livelihood is GONE on medications. She makes that choice. I can't imagine having to make that choice.

The issues remain very complex for us parents even if all you are dealing with is the mental illness. AND, the mental illness presents many more issues for us with where that line is drawn, to help them or not to help them. What is enabling, what is not? Hence, my continued desire and need for a weekly support group lead by a therapist well versed in Codependency. It is ongoing, complicated and a day to day process of evaluating, detaching, accepting, looking at options, self healing, compromise and choices. I know the head spinning really well.

Having said that, for me it has gotten somewhat easier and that is the acceptance of how my difficult child is. She can do some things well and others not well at all. Given my bag of tools, I get to evaluate where I help and where I let go, based a lot on the 'codependency feels bad, loving kindness (and I would add, normal loving parenting) feels good', theory. I've learned in my therapy group that there are no cut and dry answers, only parents trying with all their hearts to do the right thing with their difficult child's and each of us having to map that road out for ourselves. I wish there was that comprehensive book which tells us exactly what to do, but there isn't one, or one that works for all of us, simply our own knowledge, wisdom, experience, intuition, heart and love for our children.

I have also accepted that I'm in for the long haul. And, I can worry about what will she do when I'm gone, but I'll be gone and I have no control over that one, but I do get to decide what I do now. Sometimes it feels good to step in and help, I'm doing that now, and will post my update soon, but with each step I'm learning a lot about my particular line in the sand and more importantly, how with a difficult child, that line moves. I guess flexibility and trusting my choices has helped me. And, accepting and adapting to the life I've been given.

I look at my difficult child differently now. As I said the other day, since she broke down and I began really seeing the struggle and the torment, my empathy grew and my expectations, judgments, and anger subsided. With the empathy came understanding and that impacted her too, I am not looking at her with my "mothers judgment" which she could pick up on and react to in a second, people feel when they are not accepted for who they are. For us, my daughter and I, that acceptance made a world of difference. A therapist once told me that everyone wants to be accepted, and when we're not, we know it and resent it.

I don't know if this all helps or not, it was simply my response to your post. My heart goes out to you, I do really understand how difficult it is to make the choices you are making. I would say to follow your mothers heart in each individual incident and listen to her with that heart, I think you'll know what the appropriate thing to do is.

You know, just as an aside, as I accepted my difficult child, her need to hang with the kind of 'low life' characters she was hanging with, died and new friends began surfacing. I couldn't help thinking that the ones I dubbed as "low lifes" were the only ones who accepted her. Everyone else judged her. Mostly me with all my mothers concerns, hopes, dreams, expectations, resentments, angers, disappointments, etc. In coming to terms with my own feelings, our relationship improved dramatically. Go figure.......... Hugs to you Kathy.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
You do have to go with your heart. I will say that difficult child entered DBT therapy after she was released from the treatment center to deal with her Borderline (BPD). She went about 4 times, each time she promptly met her boyfriend and smoked pot right after the session. She obviously was not taking it seriously. I was excited when we found this program as it does say it has good success with Borderline (BPD) but of course it was just another waste of money.

My difficult child has a lot of issues that existed long before her drug/alcohol use. I can go way back to when she was 2 years old and would sit on every strange man's lap she could find and onto her schools years in stealing and lying and making up stories to shock people onto her high schools years with promiscuity and alcohol use and finally drug use. Would treatment help her? Probably yes but she can't stay sober enough to do it and it would cost a fortune that we don't have. So she will have to go through life living on the edge because she has not taken advantage ever of any of the programs that could help her.

I know this is tough Kathy and like I said there are no good answers. If she were out of the house it would be easier but she is with you now and that makes it so much harder. She had a chance while she was in the sober house and she was blatant in her relapse. I don't think DBT therapy is going to stop her from using. Maybe if we had enough money to send our difficult child's to that place in California they would have a chance but she is saying what she knows you want to hear right now so she can stay at home and even if she thinks she intends to follow through I doubt she will. I'm speaking from my experience with my difficult child so I may be wrong, but I haven't seen anything in either of our difficult child's that tells me there is a good chance of change.

Nancy
 

exhausted

Active Member
Kathy-I have not been on the board for a few days, I am sorry to come back to this. My daughter's last Residential Treatment Center (RTC) was a DBT center. She had intensive DBT for 10 months all day every day basically. It really is what works for Borderline (BPD), but they have to want to get better. They say that the average adult will take 2 years to fully use the skills when they are going to group and individual therapy once a week. I had to learn the skills along with her-very common sense but really good. Borderline (BPD) people do not have these skills naturally. When I try to ask her to use a skill or plan ahead for distress tolerance (her worst coping skill), she gets mad and calls it therapy for retards. She is so much younger but we had to do it-even after years of failed therpy and 18 months in a private Residential Treatment Center (RTC). We also had to do EMDR for the trauma-she needed this longer, but her therapist moved and she refused to meet the new one.

You must do what you feel will help. You do not know the outcome, and you may feel like it was a waste. Not doing it, gives her no chance. I do agree she should also committ to a 12 step program as well because no therapy works with the altered mind.

There is no medication for personality disorders. They can treat the secondary issues of depression, anxiety etc. if they are present. And yes medication is not always effective and can cause many side effects. We have had little luck.

My heart goes out to you. And I say, do what you feel is right. If you go to NAMI they don't push the harline approach that a 12 step program uses. One book I read about Borderline (BPD) said that tough love backfires and makes things worse. There isn't a book with all the answers, they often contadict each other! What is sad is personality disorders are so serious, hard to treat, and get little support when it comes to insurance companies.

we are in it for the long haul and we have to figure out how to be happy and have a life despite.... I actually don't think the cancer analogy is bad. If our kids had cancer there would be a lot more support. Friends would not fly away in droves and you might even have it convered by insurance. (((Hugs)))
 

wantpeace

New Member
So sorry, Kathy. I don't feel like I'm in a position to give a lot of advice yet, but I sure can relate to the cancer analogy. Our difficult children are suffering from diseases and they are our children on top of that. It's the most unnatural thing to step asside and let them suffer alone. Right now it sounds like your difficult child is being cooperative and appreciative of your help. I wouldn't be able to throw her out at this point either. If, however, she starts using again and being disrespectful in your home, you will have a much easier time going back to tough love.

I wish we all had the right answers. You sound like a very intelligent lady. If you're like me, the teacher in us wants to "fix" everything. Just take some deep breaths and try to relax. Right now I wouldn't look too far into the future. The "one day at a time" motto is a good one! Take care of yourself and don't let difficult child's problems make you sick.

Hugs,
wantpeace
 
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PatriotsGirl

Guest
Kathy, first I am so sorry you are yet again having to deal with her fall out. (((HUGS)))

I hope that I am wrong but do you think she could have self-sabotauged in order to get back into your home?
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
I do think that she really wanted to be successful at this job and that there is some truth to the crazy boss angle. I remember her telling me on the first day about him warning her not to get friendly with the stylists and I remember one night when I accidentally called difficult child's work number and hung up when the owner/manager answered and then told her what I did, she got frantic and told me to call him back and identify myself and apologize because "you don't know how he is. . . he'll be paranoid that he missed a client's call."

So unless she was painting this portrait from the start as some big charade in case she got fired, I do think part of this is not difficult child's fault. And she showed me the slip of paper where she had written down the Department of Labor guy's phone number when he called earlier this week due to a complaint from the previous receptionist.

~Kathy

Kathy--

This is my thinking based upon what I've seen with my own difficult child's "employment adventures"....

I do think there is some truth to the saying that "difficult children will find each other" - I think that people who share common traits have a natural affinity for one another, even if it is only at a subconscious level. It would not surprise me in the least that your daughter's boss is a bit of a difficult child himself. Maybe that's the very reason he liked her for the job - they share at least a subconscious commonality...

BUT - because the boss is running a successful business....he has obviously gotten most of his difficult child tendencies under control - a "Functional difficult child" if you will. And other people work there and have for a long period of time, so this guy cannot be totally loony-tunes.

We DO know that the DOL telephoned on behalf of the previous receptionist - but we don't know why. It could be she complained that he shorted her last paycheck (like what happened to our friend Star*). It could be he fired her and she went ahead and filed for unemployment and the DOL needs to verify that. It could be that he had every reason to fire her and now she is coming back with nonsense as a revenge tactic. We don't know. So the fact that the DOL called does not necessarily point to anything.

Every telephone job I have ever worked went by the "two rings" rule. You never EVER let the phone ring more than twice because you risk losing a potential customer. I think that's pretty standard. How many times did the phone ring before the boss answered that time? If he picked it up on the third ring and heard a click? Yep - I'll bet he was upset at the thought of a lost client.

And the warning not to get friendly with the stylists - what does that mean, exactly? He doesn't want the receptionist away from her desk gabbing in the back all the time? (That would be my first guess). Or perhaps he was thinking he didn't want the receptionist to be perceived as "playing favorites" by directing new clients to a particular stylist she is friendly with?

So my point is - her boss may have been overly strict, or very quirky, or maybe didn't explain things very well....BUT so far, I haven't heard anything bordering on "unfair" or "abusive"...

And I know my own difficult child would have been upset at these exact types of things. Well, what's the big deal if the phone rings three times? Who cares if I talk to a stylist - I can still hear the phone.

So - even if there was something "off" about the boss....difficult child still must have at least some ownership of losing the job. It is a pain to interview, hire, and train new people. Surely, there must have been some kind of actual problem for the boss not to at least give her a chance....?

We've all had cr*ppy bosses at one point or another. And this is exactly the kind of challenge that all of our difficult children must learn to meet in order to live ITRW. Parents, teachers, school districts - all tend to roll-over to accomodate a difficult child. A boss won't.


I think it would be more encouraging if your difficult child admitted to a mistake or two at work - instead the "all the boss's fault" thing makes me feel like it's just more "difficult child Stories". And that makes it really tough to know what to do next.

Applying for a new job...going to the interview - this is all a good plan. (And good luck to difficult child!)

I just worry what happens if the next boss is a "problem" too...
 

susiestar

Roll With It
Kathy, I have been thinking over your posts about the emotional outcry and tears from difficult child the other day. of course I wasn't there and I could attribute it to manipulation, sincerity, being high, seeing the light, or being abducted by aliens. It would be really easy to persist in the "how many times did she con you/ how often did you say she couldn't live with you? how many times are you going to not follow through or be consistent?" line of thinking/questioning.

I am sure you know that i am pretty strong on the side of follow through and not getting burned again esp by an adult difficult child. i just don't know that it is the best in this situation.

When you and Sig posted about the sincere tears and seeing a glimpse of the real, deep-down-under-the-koi child you love, it made me think.

One thing I believe in FAR FAR FAR more than doing what you say/being consistent is the awesome power of a mom's intuition. A few months before my brother's alcoholic felony spree, my mother was really really upset and she watned to insist he leave. His pattern for many years was to work in a national forest from the spring until Christmas and then go to my parents for Christmas until he decided to go back to his 'home'. My mom was seeing no future in this pattern and he was in his mid 30s, time to start a life. She was even more tired of a kid who came home for MONTHS on vacation each year, and nOt because he was wildly successful. He is a terribly inconsiderate houseguest if you are his immediate family, and his drinking/staying out was more and more disruptive. She was very ready to tell him to LEAVE in the next 48 hrs according to the deadline she set several weeks before and then she got a really bad feeling. He had been very depressed over a girl situation and my mom didn't know everything. She just got this feeling that if seh kicked him out he would hurt himself. My mom's intuition is surprisingly accurate. She talked it over with a friend and then called me (I didn't live in state and did have contact with bro then) to see what I knew. I told her the rest of the girl story (she had called me and he totaly did not read the situation right.

My mom and I, and even my husband, think that if my mom had followed with the deadline the results would have been awful, at the minimum a suicide attempt. As it was just a couple of weeks later he had his legal problems and he hit his bottom and then things were able to start looking up.

I don't know the entire situation with your family. i don't know what your adult child needs, or if she is playng you. i do know that you are a really great mom and that your instincts on the situation are what should be trusted. please follow your instincts even if it means that you are not consistent this time or that you change the plan and how long/if she can stay with you.

it isn't easy to know what is rght, but if you follow your instincts, then you will get the most right option for your family.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Kathy we are all here to support you no matter what choice you make. This is not easy stuff we are dealing with and there is no right or wrong way, only the best way for each of us at the time.

We are thinking about you and hoping all is going as well as it can.

Nancy
 
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