Showdown at the OK Corale

[Star*]

----note to self. Put clothes ON while trying to write in the swamp. This possibly could be the failure and necessary element for better writing. ---note to self. Buy clothes for writing.

As far as the puppets and the racing? There are going to be a lot of things that you try today, that work today - that won't work tomorrow, and then will work the day after tomorrow. I used to describe Dudes brain like a rat in a controlled maze. If you've ever watched someone let a rodent go in a maze? They run, down this way - WALL. Then back. Find the opening - then down this corridor WALL - then down the other way - but they do it all so quickly and it doesn't take them maybe one trial run through it to know how to go from point A to point B and like (snap) they have it all figured out. Much like that? Was my sons line of thinking he was so quick to walk into a room and assess the situation and people and everything, make seriously quick decisions, know what would push peoples buttons almost immediately. We were told by several psychiatriasts he was very clever, and delighted in outwitting people. When he was 5 he was the only person to ever 'escape' out of the hospital. He sat and watched each person push their code, and memorized one persons code. Hyper, off the wall defiant like nothing I'd ever seen before, quick to anger - seemingly did the exact opposite of everything you asked him to do and if you tried reverse psychology? he knew it. By the time I was 33? I was so worn out I can't tell you. I had permanent dark circles under my eyes. I hardly slept - he didn't either. I did and tried EVERYTHING and nothing seemed to work, everyone we put him with seemed to give up - it was maddening. It was nuts to have a room full of 15 adults tell you that after 14 months? They had NOTHING left to give, and he was free to go from their care. 14 months of driving one way for 3 hours - every week - and missing ALL holidays - school - EVEN CHRISTMAS....birthdays - Makes me want to go back and scream at them that they failed. Because they did, but in a way - it gave ME a break I needed, because there was NO way in the world we could handle him here at home. We tried everything and it was impossible. Believe me we tried.

Like Marg said - Maybe you will find a medication that helps, maybe you will find a therapy that works...maybe you will find a parenting techniquie that works or a combination of all three or two - hard to tell. What IS an absolute is that whatever you are going to do, or will do? You will be doing it for a long, long time. A lifetime if you will - his lifetime. So preparing yourself for THAT alone? Helps you adjust to the fact that this isn't going to be over with a prescription or a doctor or a book - or in a few years. The reality of that? Knowing you aren't alone, he can't help it - but he CAN help himself if you are helping him - and knowing the difference because you are educating yourself constantly? Will help you both more than anything.

Another good book? It's on effective communication - and I love it - It helped us with Dude right away. It's called How to talk to kids so they will listen and how to listen so they will talk. GET IT. Read It. Do the work book pages in it. it's like the secret language of GFGism. I received it as a gift from a lovely friend here on the board and I haven't quit bragging about it since.

Hugs to you and the little man.

 

[BusynMember]

On the humor front, and my son is definitely on the autism spectrum...nobody questions this anymore/it is obvious...has ALWAYS had a great sense of humor. He still does. It is not limited to puns...he can catch subtle humor. His problem is that he has poor social skills (the type that are debilitating, but NOT a social phobia...there is a difference). And he has poor life skills. He would never shower if I didn't force him to. If he lived alone, he wouldn't shower period. Just one example.

All Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids are different. They share one very serious flaw. They do not undersand intristically how to socialize with their same age peers and act inappropriately. Some are friendly, but have no idea that they are in somebody's face, some talk non-stop about their own stuff only, but all end up socially isolated unless they either get help or are extraordinarily brilliant and can figure it out on their own (like Marg's older children did). Most are not that brilliant. Most are average to average smart.

My daughter has ADD. She is not on the spectrum. There is just no way. Her social skills are probably better than 90% of the fourteen year olds on this earth and they always have been. She has always drawn people to her and knows how to deal with people very well. So is it on the spectrum? I thought so until she was diagnosed. Maybe the "H" in ADHD makes it part of the spectrum. She has never been hyperactive. Spacy, yes, hyperactive, no. She also does not have any sensory issues. So I think the ADD/ADHD question will have to continue. I think sometimes ADHD is a wrong diagnosis when it is really part of the spectrum. These are the ADD/ADHD children who can not figure out how to make friends, who are quite volatile when frustrated, and who have speech issues and sensory issues. Those are the ones I always think, "I wish the parents would have received a second opinion."

I think we have not heard the last of the ADHD/AS Spectrum issue. My daughter is going to be completely tested this summer just like we tested our son. We want to help her with her LDs as she pushes on towards (hopefully) college. Right now she really struggles in school due to a bunch of puzzling things...one supposedly being ADD. Maybe the neuropsychologist will say it is no ADD, but dyslexia or something else. I certainly will trust the private neuropsychologist that we picked out a lot more than the school's psychologist.

The big question will not be resolved any time soon. I think kids labeled ADHD could benefit from Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) interventions though. Sometimes some doctor just hands out medications and expects it all to be better just on that alone and I don't agree with it.

On an interesting note...this issue must resonate with many people. The thread has over 700 hits. That's amazing...lol.

 

[HaoZi]

----note to self. Put clothes ON while trying to write in the swamp. This possibly could be the failure and necessary element for better writing. ---note to self. Buy clothes for writing.

I'm not supposed to write nekkid? Darn, I thought that was the major reason for only writing when I'm home alone!

 

[Marguerite]

Here is a classic comedy routine that younger Aspies do not get. I emphasise - I could tell this joke to my boys now, and they would get it. Well, husband & difficult child 1 would. Not sure about difficult child 3, but he's very skilled at faking it when it comes to 'getting' a joke.

A man comes home from work to an apparently empty house. "Where are you my turtle dove?" he calls to his wife.
"I'm hiding!" she calls playfully.
"I love you, I'm home, I want to give you a kiss!" he calls.
"I'm hiding!" she calls back.
"I've got a present for you!" he calls invitingly.
"I'm hiding!" she calls back.
"It's a 4 carat diamond ring!" he calls to her.
"I'm hiding - in the closet!"

Yes, with hindsight, I probably would have to explain it to difficult child 3.

Marg

 

[Malika]

Oh dear Marg - I do not get this joke!! Does this mean I have Asperger's?! Please to explain... But then... this is one of my favourite jokes. A horse goes into a bar. The barman says: "Why the long face?"
Thank you for the supportive responses. And for the hope/light at the end of the tunnel... I will definitely get that book (another one!)
On the ADHD/autism thing... to be honest, this is a kind of fine point that doesn't feel so important to me right now. As I've probably said before, I feel sad for J because he has an unusual degree of empathy and sensitivity - this does not seem to come across, often (sometimes it does - in a playground, he is always the one quick to help a toddler who has fallen down, for example) in his over-rumbunctious and noisy play... He seems to find it hard to know when "enough is enough", when people have tired of a game. I would like him to be able to understand these things because I feel he can. But I do also notice that he does not seem able to remember much of what I say, even though he is clearly bright (this was one of the characteristics listed in the ADHD article I read) - thousands and thousands of time I must have asked him to say "please" when he asks for something; maybe one time in 20 or 30 he remembers spontaneously. That is just an example! So even when he does get older and can be reasoned with much more, how much will he (and others like him) be able to "remember" of social codes and regulations... I realise that I have been setting a lot of store by J improving as he gets older - in some ways he has (people remark that he is more amenable and calm than when he was smaller) but the idea that the unreasonable tantrums and crisis at any change from an agreed programme are going to continue is.... well, demoralising, I suppose. I AM very impatient with the tantrums... sometimes my impatience kind of prevents him going into it. We spent all day together outside yesterday, during which he had two tantrums (one because he wanted to walk a different way than the one we needed to get "home" - we are away from home for the moment - and another because we lost his jacket and missed going to the cinema; I had more sympathy with the latter). I would like him not to have tantrums, to learn just to talk about his feelings... is THAT feasible??? I see the strength of his emotions, that he is overwhelmed by them.... I was like this as a child so I should have more patience for it than I often do...
Well, duty calls - J is awake and climbing onto my lap!

 

[Marguerite]

On the ADHD vs autism thing - just deal with what IS, for now. I was just trying to help you get a better picture of how and why it relates to J. I have no vested interest in him having one diagnosis over another. You're the one on the spot, not me. But I have experience with both, and like others here, can advise on the distinctions.

Don't push too hard about him not having tantrums. it is a learned skill, a difficult skill, for our kids. Especially as he is young. Where possible, where it is "no skin off your nose", let him have choice. Show him you are giving him choice. it is not the same as giving in. For example, it doesn't matter if you go this way or that way, as long as the destination is home. Unless, of course, the other way is miles longer!

A technique we were given which helped difficult child 3, was to reward him for each tantrum-free day. We had to define what constituted a tantrum - we decided that if he had to be sent to his room to calm down, then that was sufficient to not earn his reward for that day. And the rewards would accrue. Rewards once earned stay earned, and where possible are cashed in ASAP. And do not use material rewards, but instead reward him with a gift of your time, doing something with him that he loves. We had 15 minutes of me playing a Mario Party game with difficult child 3, for each tantrum-free day.
A tip - if he is beginning to throw a tantrum, do not say anything like, "Watch it! You are about to lose your reward for today!" or "There you go, serves you right, you lose your reward for screaming at me." Because ten it sounds too much like a punishment administered by you, instead of a reward earned impartially, for good behaviour.
Avoid punishment, but focus on catching him behaving well and rewarding the good behaviour. The bad behaviour? You can be disappointed, but try to control your own frustration and anger, do not express it.

The joke - it is a human nature demonstration. The husband has arrived home to find his wife is playfully hiding from him, wanting him to go find her. She won't come out, but keeps calling him to come find her. But when he announces that the gift he has for her is a very desirable one, she deliberately gives away where she is hiding to speed up the process so she can get her gift.
That is all there is to it, but it usually draws a smile from people.

Getting J to talk about his feelings - get a clock face, make one out of cardboard. Use a split pin to fasten an arrow hand onto it. Draw mood faces on it in the hour positions, label them and have each one showing a different mood. A simple one of these has only four moods in each quadrant. Happy, sad, angry, afraid. Encourage him to adjust the arrow to point to how he feels. If you like, do one for yourself too, and use it to show him how you are feeling. Use your own, not his.

A lot of what I have learned to do for difficult child 3's autism, are also useful techniques for ADHD. With some factors it's just a matter of degree. But some things your son will be handling well, while difficult child 3 at the same age did not. But he has caught up now in so many ways.

Self-esteem is a big problem (whatever the diagnosis). Watch for problems here. A low self-esteem can seriously aggravate the tantrums, too.

An important tip - you need to model for him, the behaviour you want from him. So how YOU behave towards him, will set the pattern for how he learns to behave towards you.

Marg

 

[Malika]

Thanks Marg - some very useful tips, there. For the joke, yes I had got that far but it hadn't raised the smile in me - doubtless the fault of the jokee rather than the joker!
For the tantrum - yes, it was of course that J wanted to go a way that was in the opposite direction to where we needed to go! I give him choices wherever we can - you do learn that basic strategy fairly early on
This morning, I did the "test" with him with the dolls and the hidden object taken from its usual place with improvised toys of course, where you see whether the child has understood the perspective of another person and J got the right answer like a shot... for whatever it's worth, which may not be a whole lot.
And, yes, of course I do realise that the behaviour we show is the one that the child will model, largely speaking and over the long term... therein lies the challenge!! Because dealing with these children just isn't easy, which really is one of those things that gets filed in the Needless to Say folder...

 

[HaoZi]

Self esteem is a major problem with Kiddo, that one is in her IEP. She identifies herself as "intelligent," hates to be called "cute," and her IEP says she needs to base her self esteem on more than her intelligence. I'm kind of at a loss here as to how to help her with this.

 

[Malika]

Is J kind, HaoZi? Does she feel empathy or sorrow at those in distress, those who are suffering or in trouble? Does she like to help? I feel that identifying and praising that skill and quality is a big source of self-esteem for children.
And as for how you can help, I guess, to state the obvious of which I am sure you are already aware, you do it by remarking on all her good qualities and praising them all the time. Though actually, although it sounds obvious, I think this often doesn't happen and leads to children and then adults not actually "seeing" themselves accurately, which can have an incredibly detrimental effect on them and the choices they make...
Write down all J's qualities and read her out the list! It will make her smile...

 

[Marguerite]

This morning, I did the "test" with him with the dolls and the hidden object taken from its usual place with improvised toys of course, where you see whether the child has understood the perspective of another person and J got the right answer like a shot... for whatever it's worth, which may not be a whole lot.

That's the theory of mind test. It is unusual for a child so young to get it - interesting. But one more good argument against this being Asperger's. Sounds like ADHD is looking more likely.

Marg

 

[Malika]

This is because, as HaoZi was suggesting, J is gifted! I am kidding

 

[Marguerite]

Don't kid. Giftedness can go hand in hand with ADHD as well as Asperger's. Giftedness also can be very frustrating for a kid as well as for the parents. A two-edged sword. Mind you, husband & I often joke that between us with our four kids, we have raised the national average IQ.

Meanwhile, I thought of a better joke. You may have already heard it. it is a joke that difficult child 3 still doesn't get.

An old man is sitting sobbing on a park bench. A young man comes over to see what is wrong. The old man sobs, "I've been a widower for many years, and I recently married a beautiful young woman. We have a very healthy sex life, I never thought I would love like this again."

"Wo why are you crying?" the young man asks. Is she a bad housekeeper? Or a bad cook?"

"No, she's a marvellous cook. The house is spotless and she's cooking my favourite casserole for dinner tonight." He began to sob even harder.

"So what is the problem?" asked the younger man in frustration.

"I've forgotten where I live!" howled the old man.

Marg

 

[rlsnights]

I'm just curious. Are you working at all or are you at home all the time with your son?

Your posts make it sound like you spend all your time together.

 

[BusynMember]

Marg, heh, I know about gifted kids. I had two of them and it was not always fun. Hard to keep them focused on school when they were so far ahead.

 

[Malika]

I smiled at that one, Marguerite ! Then, in rather pedantic, academic mode, I pondered what it was about the joke that MADE it funny and what would make one unable to see the humour in it but actually I couldn't unravel that... Humour is often based on our notion that things "are" or should be a certain way, of course, and so the upsetting of that order becomes "funny". Anyway, enough of the quasi-professor stuff, it made me laugh!
As did, actually, rlsnight's comments that my posts make it sound like I spend all my time with J! Sometimes it feels like that, but no - I work at home as a free-lance literary translator (hence the frequency of my posts - it's one of my little diversions, like making coffee ), J goes to school all day and on the occasional weekends when I have a tight deadline and have to work, he goes to a childminder whom he has known since he was a baby and who has two children of similar age. Under the marvellous social assistance of France, most of the cost of this childcare is reimbursed by the state... Then in the summer he spends a month or so with his Moroccan family, and sometimes other school holidays. So I am far from having sole and entire care - I am just on a steep learning curve and seem rather overwhelmed at times !!

 

[AnnieO]

I keep hearing about Aspies not getting jokes, even sometimes when they are explained. And I can see this clearly - Jett will laugh, loudly, at something that he perceives as "should be funny". Or when others laugh. Many times, it's inappropriate laughter - way too loudly for the joke, usually (i.e., I snicker and that's it... He laughs and laughs...). Many cartoons he laughs at uproariously - and the rest of us are left wondering what the joke was. He will stop laughing when it is clear no one else is laughing. Or - what drives me NUTS - is he will laugh at something that's NOT funny at all, for instance at the dinner table and husband burns his mouth on hot food, Jett is laughing loudly; or Onyxx has had a bad day, Jett will laugh (this is usually after he's been told something is none of his business - he will comment inappropriately, too). Used to be it was only things like belching or passing gas, which we've been working on as inappropriate at our dinner table. Now it's almost anything.

We've been trying to teach him, when he does not understand a joke, to ask instead of laughing. Typical response to someone telling someone else a joke, and Jett overhears: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I don't get it. (Err...)

There are times that I just don't find certain things funny. A lot of people like the Austin Powers movies, and "Dumb and Dumber"... I just don't understand why they are so funny. To me? They're painful to watch. husband once asked me why, then, I liked the movie "Dogma". Well... Between the subtle Catholic jokes, and my 8 years in Catholic school...

 

[Star*]

My sister is an Aspie. She is gifted, IQ of around 165+ - degrees, etc.....and as far as humor? It would be like telling a regular joke in a crowd - everyone laughs and she would be sitting there with a "sigh" on her face as if she were bored, and we were idiots. Which, I'm not but compared to her? In her mind? I am. lol. I think the only time in my life I ever felt vindicated was when Steve Martin was on SNL and the phrase Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me was popular. I think I wore it down to a nub. Dude also has a high IQ of 145 - but you couldn't tell it by just talking to him - so there you go. And he won't even get his GED so go figure.

 

[HaoZi]

LOL Step! I love Dogma, too. Parents tried to raise me Catholic. Have you watched Constantine (the one with Keanu Reeves)? That's considered a comedy in our household.

 

[Marg's Man]

I'm just curious. Are you working at all or are you at home all the time with your son?

Your posts make it sound like you spend all your time together.

Who are you replying to? Many people here are SATM's with paid work that enables them to stay at home.

Marg is one such mother. I, on the other hand work an eight to ten hour day and am away from home 12-14 hours a day and cannot be there for our difficult child's. Without Marg I would have had to give up my job for something that brings in an income and possibly go on the Australian equivalent of Welfare.

Marg's Man

 

[Marguerite]

S'ok, hon, she was replying to Malika. But it's a good point.

Malika, on th subject of humour, you said

Humour is often based on our notion that things "are" or should be a certain way, of course, and so the upsetting of that order becomes "funny".

It's the sudden change in expectation that often triggers the smile. But to be able to HAVE that expectation, with some jokes, you need a certain level of social understanding. That is why analysing your child's response to humour can be a strong signpost either for or against Asperger's or autism. As I said before - puns, slapstick and obvious visual humour is generally understood and enjoyed by very young or socially immature kids. But the more complex joke that requires some level of human understanding, is a lot trickier. But they can get very good at faking understanding. Especially if they are bright. As difficult child 3 put it when he was 8, "I'm getting very good at pretending to be normal." He knows he will never feel normal, but he also knows that's OK, a lot of people never feel like they fully fit in, and they do OK.

Step, something to tell Jett - scientists have actually analysed how much people laugh at jokes and found that generally the brighter the person and the more they enjoy the joke, the less they laugh out loud. The ones who laugh the loudest tend to have the least understanding of the joke. Not in every case, but overall. There is always the wonderful joke that has you in stitches. But they are rare exceptions.

And Asimov noted, people ALWAYS groan at puns!

Malika, I also do a lot of work with words. It is difficult when you have a kid underfoot and nobody else around at the moment to occupy him! Your son is still very young, as well, and my kids at that age were challenging, to say the least. easy child 2/difficult child 2 at 4 was desperate to start "big school" and I was quietly fighting a legal battle to get her admitted (she was a fortnight too young) because all the signs indicated she was ready. But before she actually started school, she was following me around the house with a blackboard and chalk wanting to play hangman. And she couldn't spell properly! But thought she could. I got NOTHING done! A very demanding, controlling kid who needed constant stimulation and intellectual challenge. Ate it all up and demanded more. And more. Of course, with hindsight, Asperger's makes sense. She still is not officially diagnosed Asperger's but it's immaterial now she's 24. ADD was diagnosed when she was 10. However, she did brilliantly at school, until she hit the learning brick wall at 10. It was a school which could cope well with people who were different in any way, they spanned a wide range of backgrounds and capabilities. I would suggest, if you have choice, you look around for such a school for your son, for when he is ready to start. It can take time to get to really know what the schools on your list are really like. You need to not only visit and talk to staff, you need to ask locals, talk to people who go there (kids and parents) and keep your ear to the ground. They don't have to have a high academic standard, they just need to be adaptable and up to date with staff learning.

Marg