Sick Puppy. Reaction to Frontline???

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Hound dog, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    As I said in a reply to another post, I have a sick puppy dog this morning. It's 9 month old Betsy.

    Actually, she's been acting sick since I put her dose of frontline on her two days ago. The vet picked the dose according to her wieght. She's had it before.

    I put it on her in the morning, by the time I got home from school in the afternoon she was acting out of character. You could see she didn't feel good. By the next day the vomiting and diarrhea started. She got sick twice, and had bms several times. But she did eat a small amount of food last night and was drinking her water fine. And perked up after eating. Even played with her toys.

    This morning more diarrhea with a small amount of fresh blood. No vomiting.

    At first I though she managed to get something out of the trash, some old food or something. Then I remembered the timing with the frontline. Then of course I think of Parvo or distemper. Betsy's had her shots. I gave them to her myself. And I know dogs can pick up viruses too.

    I'm trying not to panic, I'm going to give her some rice cooked in chicken broth here in just a bit and see if that helps. I still haven't been able to reach the vet at her office.

    Has anyone one heard of frontline making an animal have a reaction?
  2. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    Frontline - or anything similar - is a pesticide, so theoretically they could have a reaction. However, bloody diarrhea makes me think of over things - like parvo or some other virus or maybe she ingested something that isn't digestable and is not coming out right? (When I worked for a vet, they called it garbage gut.) Worms could cause that kind of reaction, too, if I remember correctly.

    I had a cat several years ago that had a reaction to the earmite medicine (also a pesticide) given by the vet, but it caused her to get hot and listless and foam at the mouth. And a couple of years ago my cat managed to ingest 144 inches (!!!) of string (they measured it after they removed it). He didn't have diarrhea - just a lot of vomitting and very listless and of course rushed him to the vet and they had to do surgery.

    Keep trying the vet.
  3. tiredmommy

    tiredmommy Site Moderator

    Is there an emergency vet in your area you can get a call into? Maybe even the SPCA or Humane Society?
  4. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Problem with taking the dog to the vet is that she still hasn't made it into her office. She lives out in the country, and roads and such are much worse out there. And we haven't even been able to make it out of our drive yet. husband put down salt but the temp is so low it isn't doing anything to melt it.

    So til I can get some of this wonderful ice off the drive, I can't even get her to one of the other vets in town if they made it in to open their offices. :frown:
  5. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    Just be sure to try to keep her hydrated until you are able to get her in somewhere.

    Keep us posted.

  6. What breed is Betsey?

    Is the frontline for flea control or heartworm control? If it is flea control it is too cold in Ohio to even worry about them. If it is heartworm, it is too cold to worry about mosquitos.

    Where are you getting your vaccines from and how long have you had them and how have they been stored?

    More than likely Betsey has a bit of gastric distress that could be, simply put, a flu bug or she got into something she shouldn't have (junk food/non-dog food).

    Do not give her rice cooked in chicken broth, too much sodium.

    Give her about 8 hours of no food and no water to give her gut a chance to settle down.

    During that sit and wait time, boil some chicken breast and cook up some plain rice. White works, brown works.

    Shred up or cube, dice, mince the cooked chicken breast and mix 50/50 with the rice. Seperate into what you would consider her normal daily portion of food. Set aside until around the 8 hour mark.

    After the sit and wait is completed, give Betsey about a tablespoon of the chicken and rice. Wait about 2 hours to see how she handles it.

    If Betsey is handling that without vomiting and without continued diarrhea put a small quantity of water in a bowl (1/4 cup or less, dependent on Betseys size) and let her have her drink.

    Give enough time to ensure that she is not going to vomit it up.

    If no vomit and no diarrhea, try a bit more of the chicken and rice mix.

    Continue this method over the next several hours until you get her back to what you consider to be her normal daily portion.

    Once she is eating and drinking normal amounts without vomiting and diarrhea, over the next day or so, slowly starting adding in her regular food, decreasing the chicken/rice mix. Keep her total daily portion in mind.

    Now, during the 8 hour fast, if her condition deteriorates get her to the Vet or at the least communicate with your vet or any other in the area.

    Any dog that has V&D, even if hospitalized is going to be put on "no food or water" by mouth until it has been several hours without the V&D. Once food is reintroduced they'll start with chicken & rice or a canned dog food called "i/d" (intestinal diet) which is just a pre-packaged prescription diet available only thru your vet that contains chicken and rice. (Translate that to mean it is expensive because of the convenience of just having to open a can)

    If Betsey just has some gastric upset, she will not die if she goes 8 hours with no food or water.

    The V&D will continue as long as she has something in her gut. You have to give the gut a chance to settle down.

    If the V&D continues they'll most likely tell you to keep her off food for a longer period and prescribe you metronidazole (flagyl) and possibly Panacur(a good, brood spectrum wormer, also expensive). Usually it is the metronidazole and Panacur.

    Are the drugs needed? No way to tell for sure what is causing the gastric upset. If it is a virus, antibiotics don't work...but it makes us feel better and the clinic makes money off the prescription. A gut bug (bacterial or some parasites) can respond well to metronidazole. Worm infestations will respond to the Panacur.

    Of course, the best thing to do is communicate with your veterinarian. But in the meantime, start resting that gut.
  7. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    thanks Stressed!

    Okay, no chicken broth then. She hasn't eaten or drank since at least very early this morning. Thats been at least 4 hrs. So only 4 hrs to go. The diarrhea isn't watery, it's sort of mucusy if that makes a difference. And she's in luck, I'm baking chicken for supper tonite. lol So I'll follow your instructions.

    The frontline is for fleas. Until very recently it's been warm enough here for them to survive. I had to do the frontline because my outside cats brought them in when N let them in to get warm when the weather suddenly turned frigid. Cats have the Revolution brand on them now too. I have to be careful with fleas cuz other dog Molly is terribly allergic to them. Vet dosed it and I put it on. I just got the dose the other day. Betsy is a Lab/basset mix, and the size of a not quite grown basset. She's been healthy up til now. Oh, and I just wormed all animals about 3 weeks ago, so it shouldn't be worms.

    I've tried all vets. None are open today. We're a small town, so is not all that surprising. Still can't get out of the drive and the street looks no better anyway.
  8. Mucosy diarrhea besides seeming to smell worse could be coccidia. If it is, you'll need a dose of Albon. The coccidia is a single celled parasite that is transmitted via feces. This is not serious but does need to be treated.

    I'm down in Wayne county and fortunately haven't had any flea problems since moving here in October.

    What wormer did you use? Not all wormers are equal. Pyrantel pamoate is great but it doesn't kill all. Panacur (Fenbendazole) is expensive but an excellent wormer.

    I know what you mean about being stuck in the house. Fortunately for me, my office is my home. I don't know how I'm going to get my personal vehicle out of my driveway. I'm probably going to have to try to pack down the snow using my work Jeep since it has 4 wheel drive.

    I drive all around Holmes County for work. I have no clue if I'll even be able to work tomorrow. Can't imagine all those country roads will be cleared.

    Oh...what type of turtle do you have?
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Oh, it smells disgusting. :crazy2: I just got out the bottle of wormer. It's just for round worms. It figures. But that's what she had when I wormed her. So, do I get the Albon or the Panacur at the vets?

    We're in highland county. by the way

    The timing is awful. Betsy is scheduled to be spayed friday morning.

    The turle is a fresh water one. Not sure exactly what she is. It belongs to N. She's had it since it was tiny. Flea market sold it long before it was big enough. (supposed to be 5 inches) When we got her she was just bigger than a half dollar. Now she's about 8 inches nose to tail. We didn't know about the 5 in guideline when we got her. Never thought I could get attached to one. But this one greets you ever time you come near her tank, and will beg for food. :rofl:
  10. You'd have to get Albon from the Vet. Panacur can be ordered online but is expensive and does not come in single dose sized.

    Before starting any type of medication or wormer, you should always have a fecal float run if gut parasites are suspected. Panacur is safe and broad spectrum and generally safe but...say it is coccidia, then you are mistreating the wrong thing. Wasting money. Panacur would be great to add in to your worming plan.

    Most of the kennels I inspect alternate Pyrantal and Panacur and I think it is a marvelous plan.

    Do you think you'll be dug out by Friday? hahahahah or your Vet for that matter. I'm seriously debating my trip to Buffalo New York on Friday for KH#2's orthodontal appointment. Hate that lake effect crap.

    Ah, the infamous baby red-eared slider sale! Look anything like these when it was little? Those are mine and there are 11 of them in there.

    I asked because I keep turtles. I currently have 10 adult box turtles and one baby that I hatched out this past August.

    What sucks about the box turtles is that they are regulated in Ohio so I'm jumping thru hoops to get mine licensed. Once they are licensed, I'll have to have each of the adults microchipped. I wish I'd have NOT be honest about having them. I still don't know if they will try to confiscate them in lieu of licensing them. If they confiscated, since they are not turtles from Ohio, they'll have to euthanize them. Tell me where that makes sense?????

    The law about turtles is that they have to have a carapace of at least 4 inches to be sold legally. This is due to an FDA ban back in the 70's. Did you ever have "dollar turtles" when you were a kid? That was a craze and parents were buying these cute, safe, "kid pets" for their small children. Little kids were doing what they do best with small things...sticking them in their mouth. So began the salmonella outbreak amongst children in homes with "dollar turtles".

    The FDA figured that a child wouldn't be able to put the larger turtle in their mouths.

    That's the reasoning behind the ban on turtle sizes.

    I know what you mean about personality. You should see the "turtle convoy" when they know I'm filling the food bowl!
  11. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    N just got up, and yes hers is a red-ear slider. Interesting on how the size limitation came about. Hmmmm, does that mean we have to get this one licensed? Or is that just box turtles? easy child's husband has a male red-ear slider, his was also sold too small. He's younger than ours and about 2 inches smaller.

    Now why would they take yours away knowing they'll just have to euthanize them?? That's awful!!!

    You have beautiful turtles by the way.

    I have no idea when they'll get to us. The temps aren't helping them clear the streets. That's for sure. The salt isn't doing a thing right now. :rolleyes:
  12. I'm not sure about a single red-eared slider. Here is some info on it though.

    I hate to say this but I wouldn't even look into it. If I had the chance to do it all over again, I'd seriously consider "Not doing the right thing" regarding my turtles.

    My turtles were not acquired in Ohio therefore, they can't release them into the wild here. I've had these turtles for years but I have to prove that they were legally acquired. That is where the problem is.

    All of mine (adults) have been given to me by friends that found them or had them as pets but got tired of them. Even though I've had them for years, they've been wormed and very well cared for and honestly, who knew they were a regulated critter???

    So I accepted them, cared for them but because they may have not been legally collected years ago...they may have to be destroyed.

    Oh yeah, a couple of mine have been given to me fresh after being hit by a car. Nursing them back to health may not be legal either. :hammer:

    According to my local wildlife inspector, it doesn't matter that I've just moved here and am trying to do the right thing. Doesn't matter that Ohio just started regulating turtles a few years ago.

    Bottom line is that it is dealing with state Government that doesn't have a clue yet as to how to handle it. I'm creating work for them.

    Frustrating at best.
  13. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    Lisa, my youngest Boston, Katy, got sick with with the exact same thing just a few days before we were leaving to go out of state for Christmas! Talk about good timing! This came on her very suddenly - one day she was fine and the next day she had all this! She seemed to feel fine but there was huge amounts of gross, vile smelling, bloody stuff coming out of the south end of this chubby little dog who has always been healthy as a horse! I took her to the vet because she chews so much, I was afraid that she had swallowed a piece of a toy or something and it was lodged in her intestines. He checked her for worms and found out she had a REALLY high level of hookworms, and they can give them those same symptoms. There never was any worms actually visible though. I don't know if there is a different kind of medicine for each kind of worms, but what he gave us was white stuff to dose all three dogs with. Even though the other two weren't sick, they probably had them too. 1 cc for each 20 lbs. of body weight for three days, and Ms. Katy was cured! medications just for roundworms may not kill hookworms too.

    Makes me so mad! I am SO careful with my dogs, but apparently every straggly little stray in town uses my front yard as their own personal little potty place!
  14. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    The pet store, sorry I thought N got it at the flea market, told N that they could sell them because it is for "research". Now everyone and their uncle knows it isn't. But as long as they keep records and such (like eating habits ect) no one can prove they aren't doing just that.

    Now I don't know how true this is. I'm just passing along what was told to her. N decided to keep the news she has one to herself. No sense in going thru the hassle when hers is well cared for and healthy.


    Since it looks like our streets will be clear tomorrow, I'm taking her in anyway. If vet wants to just worm her and wait on the surgery that's fine. I am going to try to get them to squeeze in a visit for tomorrow though.

    She just had some supper a bit ago. So far so good. It was rice and baby food chicken. husband decided to treat me to dinner since he finally got the car out. lol I was lucky that N had the baby food chicken in the house. So far she's doing well. I don't think whatever it may be is serious. Just a disgusting. lol
  15. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    About the Frontline - years ago when products like this first came onto the market, my sister dosed her dog (a small terrier) and the dog got dreadfully sick - vomiting, lost weight, looked just like a poisoning case. The dog did recover but it was a near thing.

    I think it does depend on the dog, whether it's got s sensitivity reaction and how much it grooms itself.

    The mucousy diarrhea - that could be an indication of intestinal inflammation. It would be worth checking it for other nasty things, but it could also be the Frontline.

    My sister nursed her dog through it. The vet didn't believe it could have been the Frontline, until everything else was ruled out. She was able to use flea powder on him and other things, just not Frontline or similar products. She never used them again, just stuck to regular flea shampoos and dusting the sleeping area.

    Can you get your hands on the product that stops the fleas from forming pupae? It's similar to the juvenile hormone pesticide used on cockroaches. I haven't seen the flea one advertised much lately (or the roach one, for that matter) but they first developed these for flies, back in about 1981 I think. We had it in Australia for blowflies and the sheep industry. Our market name, while it was being researched, for the flies was called Vetrazyn. The flea one and the cockroach one had different names. But because they're only designed to work on insects (and even then, only some kinds of insects) these pesticides have a low mammalian toxicity.

    I would talk to the vet about alternative flea treatments. Ask about juvenile hormone.

  16. The white "chalky" medication was Panacur. If one pet in the household has whips or hooks, pretty much a given that they all do.

    The flea growth inhibitor is called Precor and there are a ton of products that include it. I could give you a good website for ordering larger quantities with much better prices than you'd pay in the stores for.

    You'll find a lot of pet stores selling the baby turtles for educational or research purposes. I tried to buy one under educational purposes once. Got it bagged and to the counter and went to pay. When I pulled my wallet out and they caught a glimpse of my badge. "Sorry, we really can't sell these" and the sale never completed. That'll teach me to pay cash instead of using my bank card.

    I ended up getting mine from an alternative source.

    Something to keep in mind about having fecal floats done. A negative is not definatively a negative. It just means that that particular sample didn't show any eggs. Your dog can have a heavy infestation and still show negative. The results on depend on the timing. If it is a newer infestation the worms may not have started laying eggs yet. It can take months for the eggs to show in a fecal sample.

    Then again, if someone was reading the slide to quickly, they could have easily missed the evidence. It happens.

    All dogs get worms and should be wormed annually or more often as recommended by your vet. Dogs that go outside much need to be wormed more often.
  17. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    The diarrhea is gone today. She's romping around feeling grand. I couldn't get her into the vet today for same reason as yesterday. I could get out, but evidently the vet couldn't get into town.

    Now I have a question. She is scheduled to be spayed in the morning. I was going to keep her appointment and let the vet know what's been going on. Do you think the vet would go ahead with the spaying? And could she get a fecal sample while Betsy is there?

    I normally worm my dogs every six months. More often if I see any indication of worms. I keep my yard cleaned up. With 3 dogs you've got no choice. lol But there are strays and neighbors dogs and cats. So I never assume mine are necessarily worm free. But I swear I won't let husband buy the wormer anymore. He bought the last one, which happened to be only for the round worms. :hammer:
  18. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    As long as she is not running a fever, they will probably go ahead and do the surgery. And, yes, they can get a fecal sample while she is there.

    Glad to hear she is feeling better.

  19. Definately let your vet know what was going on and what you did.

    She should do a thorough pre-surgical physical and make a determination from there. Yes, she can run a fecal at this time as well. I'd lean towards her doing the spay.

    Worms and dogs go hand in hand. Unless you live in a completely sterile environment you'll always have wormings to do. Even if the dogs lived only inside, year round they could still get the worms if you happen to walk thru an area that the worms were "deposited" in. Just like fleas, a fact of pet life.

    Having worms is not a reflection upon the pet owner.

    The typical wormer is Pyrantal Pamoate. It is a great wormer but does not kill whipworms. I'm a huge fan of Panacur, it gets whipworms. But it is expensive. Also, neither or those will kill tapeworms. Prazaquantel (droncit) is the drug of choice for tapeworms. It just recently became available without a prescription.