*Sigh* need advice regarding Copper (LONG)

[Big Bad Kitty]

This is truly something I could only come to this board with.

Let me go back 21 years. I was living with Copper's father (J) and getting ready to graduate highschool. I was partying it up because I was 18 and out on my own, and I had the world in the palm of my hand. He and I broke up right around the end of April (so literally almost 21 years ago exactly) and I went to stay with some friends. Being a difficult child in my own right, the partying did not stop. And I started seeing another guy, K, but only for a couple weeks. I hooked up a few more times with J; at my graduation party and shortly thereafter.

In July I found out I was pregnant. When the doctor gave me the gestation information, I calculated conception to the exact day, and it was the day of my graduation party. I had been with K about 3 or 4 weeks before that, but far enough away that it could not have been him.

With every doctor's visit, he did another measurement and reaffirmed how far along I was, and it kept going back to that night with J. He knew I was pregnant, he knew it was his. He wanted nothing to do with it. We broke it off for good.

So Copper was born and I did the best I could. When she was about 4 she started asking about her father. I told her that I did not know where he was. I had never gone after him for child support or anything. She was satisfied with that. One day when she was about 8, and I had a job as a skip tracer, I ran his name for kicks, and I located him. So I gave him a call. We talked a long time. I discovered that he had since married and had another girl and a boy. I told him all about Copper. He and I met for dinner and discussed the possibility of him meeting her. We each brought pictures of the kids. I was tickled at how much his son looked like Copper did at his age. Then we had another dinner, this one my mom and his wife attended as well. We wanted all bases covered. So we finally brought them together. Copper was ecstatic. She not only had her father, but siblings too. She got to see him for about 6 months, and then he and his wife separated. Suddenly, when I called him to tell him about a winter program that Copper was going to be in, he announced that he was too busy to be Copper's dad anymore. He stopped answering the phone. His wife stopped answering the phone. Copper was so crushed, and it broke my heart. This was precisely what we were trying to avoid, but it happened anyways. He came into her life, and then left it.

She spent almost the rest of her childhood in therapy over it. She became promiscuous rather young, probably looking to fill the void that her father left. She became insanely jealous when Tink was born; not so much jealous of Tink but more jealous that Tink had her daddy there. And she was 13 at the time. She'd ask me "why didn't you try to stay with my dad?" I did not have the heart to tell her that he wanted nothing more to do with me when he found out I was pregnant. I told her we broke up before I knew I was pregnant.

So when Tink was 2, and I left Matt, I was going through some old pictures. I noticed that Copper had been on the chunky side when she was 8-9 years old, but she slimmed out nicely. A rare thing in our family; we dagos are nothing but a bunch of big boobs and big butts. I was noting that Copper actually resembled my mom moreso that even myself, and I found that interesting. Than I ran across a picture of K, and my blood turned to ice.

Same long thin face. Same olive complexion. Same hazel eyes. Same golden brown hair. She didn't really LOOK like him, but she certainly RESEMBLED him.

Could I have been wrong all this time? I mean, I never thought she looked like J, but neither did his other kids, really. J had a very distinct face. His eyes were pretty close-set together, and one was half green and half brown. He had a very strong nose, and only his other daughter inherited that.

A few months later, I got clean for the last time (so, about 4 1/2 years ago) and a few months into that I did my fourth step. For those of you not in the know, that is where you take an inventory of yourself and tell somebody. So I told my sponsor, hey, my kid is going on 17, and all of a sudden, I'm not sure if the person that I have thought all along was her father, is her father. What do I do? She told me that if she were a young child, it would be different, but considering her age, it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie.

And so I did.

Now today I got a phone call from my brother. He called to tell me that he got a phone call from a gal that we went to highschool with. She just called him out of the blue. It seems that for the past couple years, she had been in a platonic roommate situation with K, and according to her, he has spent the past 20 years wondering if the "kid that he heard that BBK had in 1988 was his".

I am struggling so hard with this that my heart hurts. Do I pass the message back that no, it's not your kid, and just leave things as they are? I mean, I really counted over and over when I went to the doctor. At least that is what my memory is telling me. I SO remember there being no doubt in my mind that it was J's baby. Or do I potentially ruin THREE people's lives? What if she is K's daughter? All this time I have wondered how J sleeps at night. How do I know if he does? Maybe this is killing him. Could you imagine if he then hears oops, guess what, not your kid? How would I make something like that up to K? Yeah, she is your kid, sorry you missed out on her whole childhood? Most importantly, how on EARTH would I make something like this up to Copper? Is it even up to me to make this decision? I'm not God. I don't want to pretend to be God.

If you have stuck with me this far, bless you. I don't know how I will sleep tonight, my insides are doing a dance, and I am ready to cry any second. Any advice, words of wisdom, BTDTs, suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[meowbunny]

I wouldn't tell Copper quite yet. From what you've said here and in the past, I'm not sure she could handle the disappointment if K wasn't the father or, if he was, if he didn't want to at least meet her.

I would try to get a DNA swab from her -- saying something to the effect that there are some genetic issues you feel it is important to clear up. I would talk to K and simply explain you didn't think there was a chance he was the dad but the older Copper gets, the more she is starting to look like him.

I don't see how you would be ruining anyone's life. If J's not the father, he'll at least know he's off the hook for anything in the future. If K's not the father, then the status quo remains the same. If K is the father, then you can talk to Copper and give her the option to meet K.

No matter what, you honestly believed J was the father. You didn't lie. Heck, you didn't even try to force him into Copper's life. He chose to get in and out of it. You did the best you could.

Quite honestly, I truly wish I could find my daughter's father just so he could answer some questions. I know his name but have been unable to locate him anywhere. I don't know if he would any kind of relationship with his biological daughter, but I'd like to at least give my daughter the option of contacting him. She doesn't need a father but she would like one, even if it is someone at a far distance who doesn't particularly want to be in her life. For her, it is the idea of being "complete," if that makes sense.

BBK, don't beat yourself up. You did the best you could at the time. Heck, at least you gave J a chance to be her father. He's the one who lost out. Sadly, he cheated Copper in the process, whether he was the biological father or not. He accepted he was at that time. Believe it or not, this whole thing could end up being a good thing. Give it a chance.

 

[flutterbee]

OK, call me cynical, but here goes.

I don't see anything in your post that suggests K would be anymore of a father to Copper than J has. He's wondered for 20 years, but he's never been motivated to step up to the plate to find out. He wasn't interested in helping to provide for a child he thought could possibly be his. He wasn't interested enough to accept the responsibility and be a parent even if he couldn't provide financially.

I'd be careful. You could open the door to more rejection and hurt for Copper. If K contacts you and proves himself to have a genuine interest in being a father to Copper then and ONLY THEN would I consider more action.

I know what it's like to have a come and go father. Even at my age and knowing and accepting how my father is, it still hurts when he does it again. I let him back into my life a year ago and have spent the entire time regretting it. A longtime friend of mine has the same situation with her dad. We've both said we'd rather they just stayed away. The coming and going is just a smack in the face every time.

And now my daughter's father hasn't made any attempt to contact her in 10 years. I see how that hurts her. It enrages me. I don't care if he goes to bed hurting every night. In fact, I hope he does hurt. It was his choice and his choice has scarred my child...my innocent, baby girl who at the age of 3 couldn't possibly understand why her father just didn't pick her up one day and never called again. He deserves to feel some of that, too.

I'm sorry for your hurting heart. This isn't on you. This is on them. On J for treating who he believed to be his daughter the way he did and on K for wondering, but never being interested enough to find out for sure. No matter how hard we try, we can't protect our kids from the selfish actions of an uninterested parent. We can only try to cushion the fall.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

In K's defense, at least in the beginning, he is younger than me. He only found out I had a baby through the grapevine, and he was still in highschool. I'm sure in no way ready to be a dad. As time went on, I don't know if he could have tracked me down, but I do know he never tried.

I just dug up three pictures. One of J, one of K, and one of Copper. J is 20, K is 16, and Copper is 15 or 16. She really does not LOOK like either of them. She looks like me. She looks like my mom. I don't know. This would be so different if she were a kid.

Heather, you hit the nail on the head. If I ever come face to face with J again, I don't know that anything would hold me back from clocking him. I have come to forgive him, yet I still don't know if I could look at his face without doing some serious collateral damage. Hurting me is one thing. Hurt my kid? You've crossed the line, buddy.

I still feel like it is up to me to do something. My mind just won't stop going.

Thank God Tink looks just like Matt.

 

[Hound dog]

BBK

I'm gonna give you my 2 cents worth.

You were positive when you found out and during the pregnancy that Copper was J's child. While I understand your concern, I see no reason for you to doubt yourself all these years later. Might be different if she was a dead ringer for K. But she's not with either of them.

Trust yourself.

For what it's worth, if were me in the same situation, and even if I was certain I'd made a mistake, I'd most likely keep it to myself.

Why? Wondering if you have a kid isn't anywhere near the same as wanting that child, even now so many years later. A child rejected by one father isn't going to welcome another one with open arms. And if he doesn't want a relationship with her either, the disaster it might cause will be greater than the first time around.

If there are no important health issues involved, like a transplant that only best comes from a blood relative and no one else matches, I'd let it alone. There is far more potential for pain and distruction than there is for something good to come out of it.

My father walked back into my life when I was 22. I might like him. We get along. There is no resentment, no bitterness. But I don't love him as one would love a father. We are not "close" and never will be. The opportunity for that parent/child bond to form passed us by many many years ago. It never formed and it never will.

Hugs

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

I wish I could let this go. It is killing me.

I feel like, whether I take action or not, I am playing puppetmaster. Who am I to decide that it is better for things to be left as they are? Or who am I to open up a can of worms? I don't know, I have so many conflicting feelings. I saw how much hurt that J put Copper through, so maybe my new doubt is really a glimmer of hope that she could really have a dad? I am trying so hard to clear my emotions out of the way and use logic when trying to figure this out.

As it stands right now, there is nothing pressing like a disease where I would need to know medical background or anything. I know that I do not have to make a decision today. I feel bad that for all these years, K had this in the back of his head, wondering. Of course, as has been noted, it did not bother him all that much because he never tried to find out. So right now, J, K, and Copper do not think anything is amiss, but I am going out of my mind crazy.

One other piece to this is that I just recently located Copper's brother and sister on Myspace. I told Copper about it, and she has been taking her time in deciding whether to persue a relationship with them. When J stopped seeing her, all contact between her and her siblings was cut off. Now her sister is 18 and her brother is not far behind.

Boy has my past come back to bite me in the arse.

 

[everywoman]

BBK---
I don't think you can sweep this under the rug. You need to know for sure before you can make any decision. Many times insurance companies require a DNA test for policies. Could you use that as a guise to get Copper's DNA. Obviously it does bother K. 20 years later his roommate calls to inquire??? I'm sure he would understand the reason to do a DNA and keep quiet until you are sure. Even though my dad was not the greatest, having him in my life taught me some very powerful lessons. If there is a chance that you were wrong, and the info could get back to Copper, it would be better to tell her than not.

 

[Shari]

You're right to ask who you are to play puppetmaster? YOU aren't!

Obviously, if K really wanted to know, he'd call you. I'm sure it has been revealed that he has a "link" of sorts to get to you. He hasn't used it. Even if K is Copper's biological father, he isn't stepping up. Don't play puppetmaster. All these puppets have brains of their own. You gave Copper the info you thought was correct, and I think deep inside your conflicted head, still think is correct. Let it be til another puppet in the show acts on his/her own.

Maybe it would make you feel better to write a letter to give to Copper some day. Maybe you give it to her, maybe you don't, but it might help you to get it on paper and out of your head for a bit.

Hold your head high, my dear. You have triumphed over your past!

PS EW has a good suggestion...maybe you can get K's toothbrush and have a DNA test done. Maybe that would clear your mind.

 

[Star*]

BBK - I'm so sorry you are hurting.

I have read the other responses and completely and utterly understand each persons response. So I'm not going to agree or disagree with anyone. I almost put this to PM, but then decided I also am part of this family and my opinions while different are based on MY life experiences. So here we all are in your living room with our own ideas of what color you should paint the walls and why. So to speak.

You know I'm adopted. I have NO CLUE who my biological relatives are. Despite having totally awesome parents, and no matter how much I say I don't want to know I believe there is some sort of intrinsic gene that says "You don't know who you are." On a psychological level I now know with certainty through years of therapy and peeling back layers of my life that it DID in fact have a bearing on the person I became, the choices I made and the way I even react to posts here on the board.

I will be the FIRST to tell you that while I think that story of Dave Thomas, rising from the depths of despair and creating an empire known as Wendy's is a fascinating and goal-oriented tale - it doesn't happen that way too often. BECAUSE of that nagging gene that says "Who am I really?" and the way it effects our sub-conscious. That relates to daily life and brings me to the situation at hand.

There are a lot of behind the scenes elements happening in this situation. First we have you. A self-admitted very young party girl in her youth who despite great odds graduated, and pregnant and had more than one partner who could be the father of your child. We have J with his close set eyes and he was also young. We have K with his distinctive looks also young. We have Copper.

You say you counted and were certain despite the times there is no way K could be the father. Well - it is possible. I was ONLY ever with my husband. I got pregnant, counted the due date, recalculated the due date, and was positive without a doubt when the cupcakes should come out of my easy bake oven. Imagine MY and everyone elses surprise when he came 3 weeks earlier than calculated. And I was told it was rare - but predicting a birth is not an exact science. I was heartbroken because he would have been born on my Dad's or Moms birthday. They couldnt put him back so here is is.

So that's fact #1 disspelled. Birth dates are rarely positive.

Based on your calculations of you and J being together - you sumised he was, but let it go. And that left Copper with a big old load of wonder. DNA testing wasn't even heard of in the 80's and if it was it was expensive. Who was going to do that when you counted? I wouldn't have either.

Because Copper was so hurt, and you love her you figured against hope that there was a chance J would be a father. At 13 years after the fact - and while having been married, and made to be responsible for 2 children - he agreed to see you and meet Copper. He didn't offer to go for DNA, you never asked and I think had you had lunch with the jolly green giant and brought a desperate child into the picture she would have said "OH yes, a daddy." but you had an idea that he was Copper's Dad. And not all kids look like their parents. Dude looks like me. If you hold pictures of Satan up next to Dudes - you see horns, pitchfork and maybe around the eyes but not much else to validate that he's the SOS Know what I mean?? I'd more prefer that he's the Son of ME and his own person. And I know for a fact who his Dad was. And whatever nationality I am -apparently at that time in space Dude was swimming in the good looks and funny end of the gene pool.

Fact #2 disspelled. Children do not always resemble their biological fathers (despite the horns) which I am SURE are from the paternal side.

And you tell me about J not wanting to be Coppers daddy anymore. I know why you didn't hunt him down for child support. Same reason I never asked Dudes spermdonor. Because they wouldn't anyway and it would just add MORE frustration to your life going back and forth to court. Totally get that. Rules today and things are different - back then you were "lucky" to get child support. Today it's your right. When J left it took a BIG part of Copper. She had years (13) to build up in her mind what a knight on a white horse would be and in a child's mind with their coping ability I would venture to say she had it all figured out that EVERYTHING bad in her life would just be wisked away when the DADDY got there. Kids of divorcee's who have no involvement do the same thing. It's like having the parent and the Disney parent who sees you every other week and gives you guilt presents. OF COURSE he's going to seem like a demi-GOD to her and you of course being the disciplinarian are the hag. I'm a Hag too- but I'm good at being a parent.

Disspell rumor #3 - J would not take a DNA test, not pay support, NOT be the daddy Copper had built him up to be and leave her with a hole in her life.

So that was and has been the way it is for Copper and she's grown up with predictable issues. In as much as daddy absent, daddy build up in her mind, daddy IS, daddy gone, child left with huge hole and why me issuses. Self esteem took a pretty big hit. But who could have predicted J would be such a dork - other than the fact that I don't think even J every thought Copper was his. And THAT led to him saying he had no more time for her.

Now enter K. You find a picture, and Copper resembles him. He recently finds out after 20 years that he COULD BE a daddy and seems that if he wasn't interested -he would have kept THAT little tid bit to himself and not said "You know I COULD be that child's Dad." but HOW after this long do you approach a woman you kinda knew when you were REALLY young and say "I never knew." I mean he could be thinking HE was the ONLY one you slept with and you just didn't tell him. Or he could have known about J and figured when you didn't say OKAY everyone in the hospital - it could be YOU (point to J) or YOU (point to K) -oh come on who seriously would do that as a teen? Yes - I'd want everyone to know I slept around and drag a 2 guys in to identify a dad. PFT. YEah - NOT. (you minx) lol

If you never told Copper - and K WAS her Father how sad it would be that neither of them met and discovered how much they are alike. Or they could meet and be nothing alike. Or they could meet and he could be a good thing that is missing in her life or they could meet and he could be the WORST thing - maybe worse than J? But what if they did meet, he was her real father, he spent the rest of his life trying to make up for lost time with a daughter he never new about?

I know I can tell you that I still at 43 and with great parents every now and then wonder - if someone resembling me walking towards me is going to say "Hi are you Star? I'm your bio-dad." I think at my age despite being curious about family, siblings and the why of my life (why was I given up) the rest doesn't matter any more. I am who I am because I made myself be the person I am today. And I wonder still would it enhance my life to know, would it be some awful uneducated, back woods, dumpy,mean, alcoholic, illiterate people that I'm from? Because I'm not like that - I'm smart, educated, caring and have a few quirks, but how would knowing that I came from people like that effect me now. Because it would. All that I have dealt with and worked out in my life would change. What if a limousine pulled up and a very rich man got out and said "Darling, I'm your Daddy - her's a billion, I just found out about you, I love you, here's a donkey farm." (stop laughing it COULD happen) but see - even at 43 I'm able to conjure up images of what if.

So with K - what harm could come from talking to him alone and telling him that he could be Copper's father. So what. It happened. Is his family decent? Did he grow up to be a decent person? Is he open to the idea of having a grown daughter after all these years? I think if you answered yes to those - meet him - ask him to take that over the counter DNA test from the drug store. It's like $30 bucks. You don't have to tell Copper a thing - tell her you're all doing that National Geographic thing One Family.

If he's not a decent man, he has interest in her after finding out she exists, then you are only picking the lesser of 2 evils you're in a spot. In this scenario Copper and you have nothing to gain other than finding out she could have been the daughter of 1 of 2 men - the first was a dud and the 2nd is maybe worst.

I guess my first question to you is - IS K a decent person, is he responsible? Is his family good and open minded. If so then I think you and K are mature enough to meet, do this test and decide where to go from there. I would lay all my cards on the table, be honest and open with him about what has happened with J and Copper and explain for her sake you can't put her through that again.

You don't have an easy task ahead of you, but I guess the biggest question is - HOW honest do you want to be and at what cost?

Can you see yourself on your death bed telling Copper "there's a chance your dad is......." Is this something that is going to eat you up for years? If you knew with 100% certainty that J was Copper's Dad this would all go away and be nothing. Let's say you do the test and K is the dad and he's worse than J - what is to be gained by copper knowing her "real" dad. WOuld he stick around or is he like J? Would it make a difference if Copper knew who her bio father was with 100% certainty even IF he's not a good supportive father? I guess to some it would. But then you would have the task of looking at Copper and saying "remember when you wanted a dad at 13 and I introduced you to J and he left you? well I met K and he's not any better but he's your real bio dad."

Whatever you need friend to help you work through this - I'm there. Actually in my little Cinderella world - my bio parents are dead and just leave me cash and I go buy my OWN donkey farm.

Hugs
Star

 

[ChefPaula1965]

BBK, first of all I want to send you a big hug ..........
This has got to be a real tough time for you. You probably feel like " if you do if you don't.....
Yikes....
When you were pregnant with Copper, you KNEW for sure that J was the father. You calculated and found that it could not be K.
If you feel the need to you may want to have a DNA test done.. I agree with others that "wondering if" you have a child is NOT the same as Hoping that and then doing something about it. If I am correct, K has not even contacted you. You just heard this from a roomate. If you have the slightest doubt that Copper would want to know this information .. or if some way you think this would be advantageous to her.. I think that if I were in your shoes.. I would give "for what it's worth" information. I certainly think that Copper doesnt need to feel rejected anymore... and J is quite horrible for what he did to her (however his past history follows him on this one, right) ... IF you feel responsible to at least let Copper know that there is a possibility that she have a different "sperm donor" (that is all they are if they have been out of a child's life this long) I would tell her.. Then let her direct the path to go.. But not until After you speak with- K and make sure he is ready to "receive" the information about being Copper's father.. does he want to take it farther and do a dna test?? does he want to be involved in her life in the event that she agrees to do so if the dna test is positive??
I would not try to use an "excuse" for a dna test that could potentially bite you..
I don't think your past is biting you.. I just think that our past is part of the puzzle of our life, and sometimes we find a missing piece we don't quite know what to do with.
As far as the siblings are concerned, I would completely leave to Copper and to them... they are all 3 old enough to decide if they want a relationship with a potential siblings.. but may I suggest to "keep it behind the scenes" until you know for sure that J is the father.
Hon, I hope this helps...
Most of all go with your heart... what does your mommy heart say to do??
More big hugs
Paula

 

[KTMom91]

Adding my two cents to the pot...

I think you should do...nothing. Copper is dealing with the hurt/self-esteem issues/confusion that J caused her. Why add more confusion? And then have her feel even more unlovable because both potential fathers didn't care enough about her to get to know her? K may be a good guy, but, after this amount of time, he can't be the carousel-riding, candy-eating daddy we all dream about when our fathers are not what we need. You have believed J was her father for 21 years. She believes J is her father. I'm guessing you haven't been in hiding all these years? There are ways to find people if you really want to find them.

I wouldn't call this a "sweep it under the rug" issue, I'd call it a "protect my daughter" issue. I was in a similar situation about 25 years ago, but I didn't continue the pregnancy.

 

[ChefPaula1965]

yeah, What Janet said..........

 

[witzend]

It's waited this long, I would wait until you are less upset about it and can make a more rational decision before you do anything. There are really two options, should you really want to know. DNA test with J. DNA test with K if J doesn't work out. You could get it done without Copper knowing what you were doing. J & K would have to know and agree to it. J might be one to jump at it since he's such a rotten guy and might want to get out of it.

But, first, I think you need to explore why it is that you feel you need to do it, and decide whether it's selflessness or selfishness that is guiding you.

{{{{{{{{{Sorry for your hurt.}}}}}}}}}}}}

 

[dirobb]

BBK, No answers just hugs for all your going through. It is alot to mull over.

Hijacking the thread for a moment....STAR...you made me cry... (I think I have posted this before) I, while not adopted do not know my Bio. My mom met my dad while 4 months preg. got married when I was 4 months old. I too have had the fantasy introductions play out in my head. My mom knows but I have never pressed to know. I have decided even after kids that I don't want to know...WHY. But you struck a chord with me...gotta go blow my nose now and fix me makeup...

I think if you want to ease your mind, try the OTC test first and talk it over with him., before you get Cooper involved. She may never need to know more than she does right now.

 

[Suz]

Witz took the words right out of my mouth.

Hugs to you, BBK.
Suz

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Thank you all for your hugs and support. As always, I knew coming here was the best thing I could have done.

Tink is with her dad this weekend (well, till Sunday early afternoon anyways) which will give me some time to really soul search.

Contacting J is out of the question. If I do this, I would contact K, find out his intentions, and see about getting a DNA test done on him without Copper's knowledge. If it ends up that K is that father, only then would I contact J and tell him.

I have an appointment Tuesday with my therapist. My counselor is in the same office. I am going to see if I can get in to see her Tuesday as well. I almost said something to my mother about it today, but I thought better of it. Not a word right now, not while I am still a friggin train wreck over it.

I don't know what I would do without you wonderful ladies. Your posts brought me to tears, just knowing that there are so may of you out there who care. Thank you.

 

[witzend]

Good move not saying anything to your mother! I know we love to lean on our mothers, but they will always be our moms, and they will always think that they know what is best for us! This time you need to decide what's best for your and Copper yourself.

 

[susiestar]

Sent you a PM. Also sending huge {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}.

I know this can't be easy. I also know there is no rush - take your time. Imagine how you will feel in 5, 10, 20 years if you take each action.

Love,

Susie

 

[rejectedmom]

BBK, Here is my take on this. Copper was terribly hurt by J.
Finding out that he was not her real dad could help her in that she could then rationalize his not caring enough to stay in her life because there was no "real" bond. (No I do not feel this way I am both an adopted mother and a bio mother. I love all my kids and couldn't walk away from any of them. I do however, think that it could help Copper to get over J's rejection if she could give some reason for it other than she was't enough to make him want to stay in her life. So I think if you can determine that K would not hurt Copper like J did and you want to persue this further you should take a DNA test sample from Copper's hairbrush or toothbrush without telling her and test with K. IF he does turn out to be the father, go slowly with the whole process with a therapist as a mediator. I do not think you should say anyting to Copper until you determine paternity with K first. -RM

 

[Tiapet]

BBK (hugs) hope your hanging in there. How are you making out?