So now driving has opened up a new set of difficult child adventures

[BusynMember]

Oragami, he is driving without a license. Many kids don't get their licenses until 18. Until they have a license, they are driving illegally. You are being too lax about it in my opinion. He broke the law. I'd crack down hard on that. I was death on two things...you get a job and you NEVER do anything illegal if you want to live in my house. Being too softhearted (out of love) for your oldest son has made him emotionally crippled and overly dependent at an age when he should be embracing his independence. You certainly don't want to make the same error with this son.

My kids were not allowed to underage drink. Period. That was serious stuff. Only one of my kids ever did it. The drinking age is 21 and with a history of addiction on the family tree and in the family genes, if it were me I'd tell your 17 year old that drinking may be ok for others, but he is prone to addiction. I have told this to my two youngest since they were little. Both of them, adopted, have extreme substance abuse in their genes. Neither drink.

Sometimes were are too lenient because we want our kids to like us and not to think we are "mean" or old farts or whatever they want to call us. But we are not their parents to help them do wrong. We are t heir parents to teach them right from wrong. Breaking the law can seriously get them in trouble...I feel it is important to take a stance any breaking the law. Your 17 year old is difficult child-ish and if he gets into any trouble he will not be joining the Marines. He's also a kid. Often they need our reminders and even discipline to do t he right things.Oragami, I"ll be honest,. I see your youngest following your oldest's footprints since he sees the free ride his brother is getting and since he has a strong rrebellious, anti-rules streak in him. I feel you must not go along with this. I don't know why you aren't...that is for your own heart to know though. I still think it's asking for trouble.

Oragami, you are playing a Jedi mind trick on yourself...lol. Your sons are both breaking the laws and it is not ok. But you want it to be ok so you are telling yourself it's ok because other kids who followed the rules are driving at 16. It is not the same thing.

I'm not an expert by a long shot. However, I did have a drug using daughter who quit. Nothing was tolerated in our house, not even cigarettes. And when she quit, she quit the cigarettes too. I think our kids listen to us more than we think, but not after a certain age...I hope you can take a strong stance. You are letting the younger boy boss you around and talk you into thinking, "Well, since most kids drive at 16, it's ok if he drives." Well, most kids stay in school, take driver's ed, and get their licenses.

Just some thoughts of mine !Peace!

 

[Origami]

Wow, I feel like you guys think I'm giving difficult child a beer in one hand and the car keys in the other! Have I miscommunicated myself that much?

2much, I admitted that I gave him permission once, regrettably, and now the floodgates have opened and I'm trying to stop them. It's not OK for him to drive, and I have told him over and over. I'm still trying to reign in the problem, which I realize I partially created with the initial permission. I'm not sure I "get anything" out of this back and forth except I'm trying to figure out how to solve the problem. I admit I was a little upset at the tone of your post at first, but you're probably seeing some things I haven't seen in myself. Is it easier to view problems clearly from the outside than from our own point of view sometimes?

When I initially allowed my son to drive alone, it was late at night and he wanted to take his girlfriend home. I had been asleep and he woke me up and asked if it was OK, I said yes. At the time, I thought it would be a better option than her walking though a not-so-nice Chicago neighborhood by herself or for either of them to be out walking. In hindsight, I can see I should have driven her myself or given her money for a taxi, but my judgment was off as we've already established.

I'm sorry if you thought my tone was lighthearted ("gleeful") and I was providing this information for entertainment value in some way. Maybe I was whistling in the graveyard and rolling my eyes a bit by sharing the fact that difficult child thinks the rules don't apply to him and that he always (in his mind) has a good reason for breaking them. I thought that was a common behavior in our difficult children (it is in my two, anyway) and that you guys could probably relate to that.

As GFG17 is my youngest of 5, there is 10 years difference between him and my other difficult child. The two kids between them were and are PCs, so I had very few problems with them and likely got out of practice with dealing with this kind of thing. Maybe I got complacent or tired, and I'm trying to regain my mojo. The older difficult child has been out of the house (we booted him out at age 17) for 10 years until this recent setback, when we were not enabling him in any way (no money, etc.) and our interactions were Sunday dinners and occasionally babysitting the grandkids. He got married, had a series of jobs, moved to California, moved back again, got arrested, etc. I've related part of his story in previous posts.

Yes, he's come back and has been back too long. The "temporary" aspect wasn't all that temporary, but I'm not kicking him, my daughter in law, or the babies out as long as GFG27 and wife are contributing to the household, looking for jobs, and not using drugs of any kind. So far they have been abiding by these rules. They buy groceries, clean the house, make dinners, and are generally pleasant to be around. The fighting has stopped, also. I have asked them to move by the end of the school year since they have no means to do so now (financially) and I wouldn't ask my worst enemy to move in the kind of winters that we have.

I don't quite understand this statement:
"If younger difficult child had killed someone on the highway when you gave permission to drive illegally, you might have gotten a ton of mileage out of it, but not so much the innocent the victims of the accident."

Are you saying I'd get a kick out of this kind of drama? Really? Would it be any less tragic if my difficult child (or anyone's) caused an accident with a valid license? Should we not let our teenagers drive at all, even when licensed? They are dangerous people, correct? I honestly have no issue with my son's driving ability, and he's been driving a while with the permit and could pass the test today except he's not old enough. I have an issue with the way he thinks it's OK to drive without my permission and that he doesn't think he has to follow the rules. To imply that I'd be complicent in an accident he may cause and that I'd get some kind of "mileage" from it seems like a rather cruel stretch to me.

I'm trying to take a deep breath here and take everyone's advice for what it's worth. I wouldn't be posting on this forum if I thought I was perfect or had all the answers.

 

[2much2recover]

Again like I said I had no intention of beating up on you, but I did perceive that there are still excuses to the "whys" of what you do allow. My post certainly wasn't meant to bring you personal harm. If it did I certainly apologize. NEVER would I join a support group to cause harm. I am not saying you get a kick out of the drama that invades your life - I am asking you a philosophical question: what are you getting out of these difficult children situations that keeps a hold on you? I think I was also saying by allowing" illegal practices" you are in fact giving permission to break the law (driving without the legal right to do so) to a difficult child who already believes that the rules of life don't apply to them. I am sorry if you are hurt, that was truly not my intention. Perhaps "gleeful" was a wrong choice of vocabulary and for that I apologize as well. I think the intention I was getting too was picked up and started in a new post "Do we get something out of enabling our own kids"

"If younger difficult child had killed someone on the highway when you gave permission to drive illegally, you might have gotten a ton of mileage out of it, but not so much the innocent the victims of the accident."

Once you agree to allow someone to break the law, if something goes horribly wrong, it is the person complacent in allowing , in this case allowing difficult child to drive when he has no legal right, without a licensed driver, to drive. When we give permission "just this once" well a difficult child will take the whole mile. Family members of difficult child live horrible experiences - with excuses for them - same s--t different day. My point was difficult children cause drama and uproar - and when we stay engaged or complacent, what are we getting out of it. Notice, not just you, but any of us dealing with difficult children.
I agree with you that you need more insight into the ways you are manipulated. I have a horrid difficult child and I did not catch on to both my role and her role for a very long time, therefore I understand that people make mistakes. I did for sure.

I hope that you can accept my apology and we can move on. Again I extend my sincerest apologies for any pain my post may have caused you.

 

[SuZir]

When I initially allowed my son to drive alone, it was late at night and he wanted to take his girlfriend home. I had been asleep and he woke me up and asked if it was OK, I said yes. At the time, I thought it would be a better option than her walking though a not-so-nice Chicago neighborhood by herself or for either of them to be out walking. In hindsight, I can see I should have driven her myself or given her money for a taxi, but my judgment was off as we've already established.

I think most of us have made mistakes or had lapse in judgement while parenting and can totally relate. I know I can. When that happens you just have to regroup and go damage control mode.

I'm sorry if you thought my tone was lighthearted ("gleeful") and I was providing this information for entertainment value in some way. Maybe I was whistling in the graveyard and rolling my eyes a bit by sharing the fact that difficult child thinks the rules don't apply to him and that he always (in his mind) has a good reason for breaking them. I thought that was a common behavior in our difficult children (it is in my two, anyway) and that you guys could probably relate to that.

I'm again sure most of us can. Heck, even my easy child tends to do things we have told him absolutely not to do. Telling them that underage drinking or whatever wasn't allowed really didn't work in my household. And my easy child really is an easy and great kid. And I have even rolled my eyes and laughed to some of it. (We did try that deadly serious commando parenting thing too with difficult child at one time, but that really didn't work. In fact it is very high on my list of parental screw ups we did.)

The older difficult child has been out of the house (we booted him out at age 17) for 10 years until this recent setback, when we were not enabling him in any way (no money, etc.) and our interactions were Sunday dinners and occasionally babysitting the grandkids. He got married, had a series of jobs, moved to California, moved back again, got arrested, etc. I've related part of his story in previous posts.

Yes, he's come back and has been back too long. The "temporary" aspect wasn't all that temporary, but I'm not kicking him, my daughter in law, or the babies out as long as GFG27 and wife are contributing to the household, looking for jobs, and not using drugs of any kind. So far they have been abiding by these rules. They buy groceries, clean the house, make dinners, and are generally pleasant to be around. The fighting has stopped, also. I have asked them to move by the end of the school year since they have no means to do so now (financially) and I wouldn't ask my worst enemy to move in the kind of winters that we have.

To me it sounds like your older-difficult child had at least semi successful launch ones and this is more a bump (huge bump but still a bump) on the road and they are dealing with it rather mature and positive manner. Even if the movement is not as rapid as one would hope, they are moving to right direction and I too would do things to support that.

One doesn't need to be harsh to harshness sake. Life is not a competition who has the biggest cajones to be harsh or who best observes certain parenting/life/dealing with other people philosophy. Parenting is not about religious jihad to best observe the teachings of someone we keep in great value.


In my parenting/relationship philosophy you build onto the positives. You support and encourage things you want to see, you discourage (in varied ways from not giving them any attention to punishments) things you don't want to see. Same principles one can use in parenting one can use in other relationships. Your ability to control adults (are they your children, your subordinates or your neighbours) is of course much more limited than your ability to control underage children of yours. But you can still teach, lead, influence to that relationship and that person.

 

[Origami]

Thanks for the apology, 2much, and I admit I was somewhat hurt. I realize you have good intentions and maybe I'm being a bit defensive since I obviously am still entrenched in enabling this younger son.
The older difficult child started acting out at age 15, but his was a very quiet form of rebellion where he'd lie about his whereabouts, go missing for a few days, etc. until he finally got arrested for marijuana possession and we discovered he was experimenting with other things. He had also dropped out of high school. At the time, younger difficult child was only 10 and his sister was 13, so we had a lot of drama that ended with older son moving out at our urging right before his 18th birthday. He was already barely living with us, though. Our relationship now is better than it's ever been since then, and he told me once that kicking him out was the best thing we ever did for him.

Younger son, on the other hand, has been boisterious, rowdy, and unmanageable in many ways since he was a toddler. He never does anything quietly, and he wants everyone to know when he's upset, etc. His history is too long to repeat now, but as an example, about a year ago he had been gone overnight without asking for permission to be out. We had already told him that if he failed to let us know his whereabouts, we would take away his cell phone for a day. Well, we followed through with that threat and also wouldn't let him buy cigarettes. (That's fodder for a whole other thread, but he's been smoking since age 15 and absolutely freaks out if he doesn't have his cigs. My husband and I have never smoked, so have disapproved from Day 1, but again, he didn't care about the rules.) So in response to not having his cell phone or cigarettes, he spent 45 minutes slamming doors, punching walls, throwing things in his room, threatening us, you name it. Husband and I sat stoically in the living room while this was happening until husband finally got fed up and gave him back his phone. We live in an apartment building and are always aware that our noise can be disturbing to our neighbors.

So I think it's this fear of violence and unpredictable behavior that partly feeds my reluctance to set strict boundaries with him. He has threatened to **** up my things, ie. computer, etc. if he didn't have his way. My daughter has told me that when we fail to stand up to him, he learns that he gets his way by throwing a tantrum. I'm sure that I've read that here on the forum, also.

So I'm still looking that strength to let him have a tantrum, go ballistic, or whatever he decides to do when he acts out against our attempted boundaries and rules. It's hard when we're worried about getting evicted if things get too crazy. I'm nervous about calling the police too often, also, although I've done so twice when the difficult children were fighting.

Thanks MWM, 2much, and SuZir for your latest comments--I'm still processing everything, and appreciate your help and patience.

 

[BusynMember]

Oragami, I mean no harm to you either and I don't think you enjoy this. I do believe you are far too lenient with kids who will take advantage of you, but that is your choice.

In my house, if anyone is perceived to be possibly violent...if I feel somebody is unsafe to me or anyone living here, pets included, I refuse to be afraid in my own home, my castle. They are gone. That is why my son was shown the door at age 18. There are no second chances when it comes to violence in my world. I had a daughter to think about and her friends who came over and my SO also lived here. It was my house, not my son's house. He had rules to follow or he could not stay.

I actually am in the minority in that I cracked down on the cigarette smoking pronto. I didn't care if my daughter thew a tantrum or not...if she had been violent, she would have had the cops called on her and been shown the door as well. When she started using drugs, I saw cigarettes in her purse. Well, I am not about to help my daughter get the various diseases one gets for smoking and I don't allow smoking in my house by anyone. So I would constantly throw out her cigarettes. I had no idea why it worked, but it did. When she quit drugs, she also quit cigarettes. Now she's as bad an anti-cigaratte advocate as I am. Her house is smoke free, like mine.

Again, all of us do what we have to do to survive. In my case, I could not have survived with my nerves intact if I had had to worry I'd get assaulted because I said or did the wrong thing. I simply am not the kind of person who can handle that, nor did I like my grown son running the show at home. Nobody enjoyed his threatening presence in the house.

Again I am talking only about myself, not you, so you get where I'm coming from.

Under no circumstances can an entire family move into our house for a year, especially if the cause of it is illegal behavior. I'd probably agree to take the grands, but not the adults.

I have been in therapy since age 23. I have a serious mood disorder. I learned a lot of things some people don't hear or learn or just won't listen to, but one thing I take very seriously is being good to myself and setting strong boundaries. Yes, it took me a while, even with therapy, to do it, but I'm glad I got it. My life is peaceful now. It has been for years. I don't fear a lack of peace under my own roof, the police dropping by, or any sort of drama, really.

Your oldest son is a walking time bomb. He is likely not going to stay clean and wasn't he smoking pot in your back yard a while ago and aren't you paying for his toys and everything else? Are you wealthy enough to do this? I'm not telling you not to do it, I just know I couldn't do that if I wanted to. Hubby and I don't make enough to support anyone else's family. You don't have to answer here either. It's just something to ask yourself. If you end up broke, will your sons help you out? More just for your mind, not to answer here.

This is what worked for me so I'm sharing it.

Peace Try to do something nice for yoruself today!!!! You matter. It's not just about your kids...you have a valuable, precious life too and it will be a life that is exactly how you want it to be. We take our own life trips.

 

[HeadlightsMom]

Origami -- My heart is with you. It is VERY hard to be "on our toes" and say a BIG CLEAR "NO" to our difficult child's (particularly when they know just how to manipulate/trick/coerce us into a muddy, unintentional "Yes"). I'm betting most of us here in this forum have been sucked into our difficult child's "Drama Tornado" (that's what I like to call it). It sucks!

That's why we've pretty much all come to a place where we must be firm in our "NO". Sometimes I think the best way to say, "NO" is to just say that one word -- "NO". Any other words attached (like reasons why) just give them ammo to work with. I like plain old "NO". Big, clear, concise...."NO".

And it's so hard to be on our toes with that firmness and consistency! Shoot, this morning my difficult child asked me to cross a boundary I had set (not a big one, but, still.......a boundary is a boundary is a BOUNDARY). Pardon the CAPS, I just kinda like that to "bold up my own boundaries" sometimes! I just replied, "NO". End of conversation. Over our difficult child raising years, our difficult child would push and push and push that limit. If I had to, I would leave our house (like -- walk or drive away) if difficult child wouldn't let it go. Eventually, he did. Very tired me!

But, after being tired enough and stressed enough and wacko enough for long enough, I just got to the place where I said, "NO" and meant it. After some time of my meaning it (and demonstrating this forcefully....even via 911 calls), difficult child quit pressing so hard. Now if he presses just a little like he did this morning, I just say, "NO".

Origami --- I say this with all my heart. BOUNDARIES SAVED MY LIFE! And, I suspect, they are the best chance for our difficult child's to get their lives together, too. The world is full of boundaries. That's life. That's survival. Even the animal kingdom draws territorial boundaries for their survival.

When you hear us being passionate about it with you here...........it's because we've ALL been there (we ain't no saints, trust me! LOL!) and we care about you and your difficult child. Most people "get" nuances of boundaries. difficult child's do not......or choose not.

Crystal clear boundaries save lives. And your life matters, Origami! You are entitled to health and happiness all your own, independently of any other single person on this planet.....including your kids.

You can do this, Origami! We support you, we're all rooting for you, and we welcome you! You're smart, caring and candid. You CAN do this!

 

[HeadlightsMom]

PS --- Origami (by the way, love that screen name!)........ I've said my spiel on this thread and have no more to say. The choice is yours.

Oh, wait....I do have one other thing to say.... I'm glad you're here and I'm still cheering you on to all health and happiness! (ok....I guess that was 2 things! LOL!)

 

[HeadlightsMom]

Origami -- Thought of you tonight and wanted to send you an extra dose of warm wishes from my corner of the country to yours. That's all. Take care.

 

[Origami]

I'm feeling more empowered by reading all your good advice and words of wisdom, so a big Thanks to you all! And of course, it's up to me to act on the advice.

To show that there is hope for me (lol), I did have the conversation with younger son about the driving. I said, "You won't be driving unaccompanied any more until you get your real license." He said, "But you let me drive before with no problems. You probably don't even realize how many unlicensed drivers there are around here, and the cops don't really care about it. Seriously, I'm a good driver and nothing is going to happen." I said, "It's a new rule, no more driving until you have your license."

So last night he asked if he could drive a few blocks to the quick stop to buy an energy drink. I said "No," and he said, "Well, it was worth a try." I ended up taking a walk with him to the store and we had a nice talk.
HM, your words ring very true:

That's why we've pretty much all come to a place where we must be firm in our "NO". Sometimes I think the best way to say, "NO" is to just say that one word -- "NO". Any other words attached (like reasons why) just give them ammo to work with. I like plain old "NO". Big, clear, concise...."NO".
​

As you can see by the above conversation, when I say "no," difficult child starts kicking in to serious manipulation mode. He's a quick thinker and would probably make a great defense attorney one day if he could ever pass a college class!

And MWM, I thank you for your candor and sharing. You sound like one tough cookie! (meant in a good way). You and HM (and all who others who have been so helpful) seem to have mastered the art of setting boundaries and enforcing them, and I'm learning a lot from you.

 

[BusynMember]

Thanks, Origami. I certainly wasn't tough at first. But I have been consistently in therapy and have had many psychiatrists and other mental health professionals. Every single one of them, and they are all different, told me the same thing...for all these years...it is NOT healthy for yourself or your grown child to have me taking care of him. Period. It may feel good to me short-term because then I feel like I'm loving him up, but in the end, he will only get worse if I keep doing it and be less eager to grow up.

I'm so glad I had such wise teachers. My difficult child would be far worse without their words. At least he has held a steady job since at least age 21, is a responsible father, and pays his child support, and he is doing much better than I dreamed. He has never been in jail which is a miracle. In fact, although he has been known to lie in the past, he is getting more honest and says he no longer steals. For him that is huge. His worst episodes are when he is going through stress. Then he is unbearable, mean, vicious, like a two year old, as if it is my fault. But during calm times...much less than I thought it would be.

There is a syndrome called "learned helplessness." It is when your adult child never learns how to thrive on his own. This happens even when there is not mental illness. And those who are mentally ill, unless they are psychotic, can learn to be perfectly independent and capable of taking care of their illness.

If you rent, does your landlord even know how many of you are in his place? Is there even room for all those people? I rent. If anyone moves in, I have to notify the landlord and our rent goes up. The landlord would not allow two more adults and two kids to move in. Are you putting your housing at risk? Dang it, YOU MATTER TOO!!!!

I think you should listen to your easy child girls. They are probably fed up with both of their brothers and maybe you too.

All I can say is, you must do what you must do. Perhaps one day you will learn to value your own life as well as the lives of others.

 

[HeadlightsMom]

Origami --- Awesome, awesome, awesome! BRAVO! You did a great job! Celebrate that, girl! Yes!

And you're right.......MWM is a tough cookie with great ideas!

Lastly, Origami --- Funny you mentioned your son the difficult child defense attorney.... In his 5th grade year, one of our difficult child's teachers dubbed him "The Little Lawyer". We know that mode so well! IN fact, I just used it on difficult child the other day when I mentioned his "Lawyer Mode". He laughed! And then I joked, ".....If only you had used your power for good instead of evil!" (complete with my pinky finger to my mouth while imitating Dr. Evil from Austin Powers --- It's a family favorite movie around here!) LOLOL!

Origami --- I repeat.........WAY TO GO! You've got this!