Steam is coming out of my ears!

Josie

Active Member
I can imagine myself in almost exactly the same situation you have described for Susie. I would get an attorney to help me. If that was impossible, I would try to figure out the worse scenario in either case and make a choice. In my situation, I don't think me taking a stand, saying they were wrong, and going to jail, would convince them. Maybe I would still feel I had no choice. I don't know.

I do have a therapist that would back me up as a rational person and would support our decisions. Do you have someone like that? I only see mine a few times a year, but I could go see her more if a court demanded it. Is there a way you can do what they order and then comply enough to get through this? Hoping to convince over time, the treating therapist that you are not the problem.

My husband and I once went to a marriage counselor. It was right after I started the gluten free diet and I wanted to make sure there was NO gluten in my food because even tiny amounts caused problems for me. husband, of course, thought I was imagining that a speck of gluten could make such a difference and was not supportive of my need for him to use a different toaster or whatever I was asking. On our first visit, the counselor thought I was "depressed" and probaby OCDish, but she didn't say OCDish. When we went back, the therapist had done a little research and found out that I was right, a speck could cause a problem. She was obviously a good therapist, because I could see how some would not bother to look and would just assume I was the one with the problem. This gluten thing is one of the reasons I would be concerned about taking that test. I think it is likely it would be interpreted as a problem.

But if you go to jail, won't your son end up with your brother anyway? If you agree to the contract of making your son's favorite meals if he doesn't break the law, and he does break the law, then what happens? Couldn't you just play along and say "I don't know what happened. I have been making his favorite meals just like you said and he still is breaking the law. What should I do now?" Would they give him more help then?

Anyway, please don't think I am judging you, whatever you decide.
 

klmno

Active Member
In my situation, I don't think me taking a stand, saying they were wrong, and going to jail, would convince them.

I'm not saying that to them. I have told them that I have no problem seeing a therapist and have seen tdocs in the past and off and on thru this ordeal. They apparently are not satisfied with that. I have also told them that I have no problem taking a thorough evaluation bbut I am very concerned about specific mental health treatment being ordered based solely on one written test- the MMPI- without any clinical interview or other assessment and the evaluator getting input about me only from someone in courts building. That is what I told them.

Now, to further clarify- the person who would be giving the evaluator "my hx" and tell them what he wants them to look for already has bad blood with me. And the MMPI interpretations are very subjective and would then be based on a biased opinion. Also, the results can be disclosed and discussed in open court and provided to others in the future. I have read a lot azbout it and it is a very risky thing, particulalry since there have beeen trials in the past where three psychs interpret one person's test individually and in private and come up with three ddifferent interpretations. It probably isn't so risky if done objectively, like for a specific job. But when court ordered and info is provided by a biased third party instead of thru a clinical interview with the subject (me), and knowing this will lead to coourt ordered treatment and potentially be discussed in open court, and possibly even provided to people outside of court in the future- well, as I said before- my previous psychiatric said she would be very leary of it. Documents about it say it can be used against you in court but I 'm not sure I understand how the results can be used against a person.

Also, I should mention that I have a fear of them undoing my previous therapy by treating me for something based on a mis-diagnosis.
 
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susiestar

Roll With It
I totally understand what you are saying. I would be upset. I would get a lawyer even if I had to sell everything I owned to do it. I would probably arrange a HUGE yard sale and tell everyone that it is to pay for a lawyer so I could fight the court to get what my child needed because the sympathy angle would get people to buy more.

I would put my kid's stuff up on ebay to pay for the legal advice. We would have no tv, etc... because I would sell it. The GAL could give him one, though I would not tell her that.

I would then use my lawyer to fight this before it got to this point. If my lawyer told me to go ahead and do it, I would. If there was no way I could speak to a lawyer, I would take the test. I have been burned by tdocs. I have had therapy. I still see a therapist and psychiatrist when I need to.

I HOPE and PRAY I would not get so stuck in my position that I would end up with the court giving custody to this dangerous relative simply because I would not do what they wanted.

You are not telling us new things. This has been your position since the GAL and PO got involved and didn't do what you wanted them to. You are right. Your position is understandable.

You are also making yourself LOOK paranoid and mentally ill in the court's eyes. All the court hears is your voice. Just like the cartoon where the dog just hears blah blah blah, all the court hears is you ranting. In ANY situation with a court and a judge, if you want to be heard you MUST have a lawyer speak for you. Period.

You say you never broke a law before this court order. Good for you. Me neither. The court order has been there for a year. If you EVER want this situation to progress, to move on to another issue other than you and your mental state, then you must either get a lawyer to speak for you or do what they want. There is a good chance the lawyer will want you to do it anyway and then fight whatever they order with a therapist of your own.

i am NOT unsympathetic. I DO understand. I also think that you are unable to grasp the reality of your situation from the court's view. in my humble opinion their view is the one that matters because the court can take away your freedom and keep you from EVER finding work again. They can also take difficult child away from you.

If you are willing to let difficult child go live with your bro, if you really want to walk away from it, get a lawyer and let the court know you are done. Otherwise you have to play ball with them.

It sounds like I am taking a hard line. Maybe I am. More accurately, I think at this point the court may be ready to take one with you. I can just hear your difficult child using your refusal to comply with a court order as rationale for him to ignore the judge. I can even hear him telling the PO and GAL this, because he KNOWS how you feel about them. He KNOWS it will focus attention on you.

I am sorry you are in this position. If I could change things for you I would. But the situation is what it is.

I could tell you you are right. Cause in my opinion you are. I can even blow sunshine up your hoohaw and tell you it will be okay, that the courts won't come after you. Maybe they won't. I am telling you differently because sadly the other things are NOT the reality of your situation. Reality is not always fun, but it still must be faced and dealt with.
 
here's my guess.

its nothing personal, and its nothing they are doing "to you".

its the protocol the system follows. maybe it stinks, maybe there are cases in which the parent has some responsibility, more likely not, but its part and parcel of the system.

and i dont blame you for not wanting to do it.

i might take a different approach if i couldnt afford my own lawyer. i *MIGHT* consider going to another town and finding a psychiatrist or a neuropsychologist to run whatever the
test is that the court ordered. and i'd pay out of pocket. and then i'd get the report and see what it says.....

and when it says you are a perfectly normal i'd hand the report over to the court. maybe with a big fat file of notes from your current therapist to support the interpretation if it does.
(and in the event it shows you are certifiable, i'd burn it and never speak of it again!)

and when that isnt sufficient to satisfy the order, then i'd hire a lawyer to argue the point that it was an independent evaluation to meet the court requirements.

just a thought.

i'm so sorry for you--your story is heartbreaking.
 

klmno

Active Member
I do see what you are saying, too. But I was under the impression that this was not a standing court order that had been in effect for a year. The MST guy last year (who is the liason that sets the evaluation up) had told me it had to be done before difficult child's court last year or else it was a done deal. I did not go and the GAL sauid she filed a show-cause on me. But, when we were at court last year and the GAL and the other attny's had planned already to used the evaluation outcome to order me to therapy and send difficult child hhome with NO punishment for pulling the knife on me but they could not because they had no evaluation results, the judge then said she had no paperwork on a show cause and said she was not going to turn difficult child over to dss and sent him to Department of Juvenile Justice. I do think it would have sent a horrible message to difficult child to not punish him but send him home with me ordered to therapy. Anyway, I called over to the clerk's office a few weeks later to find out what happened with it and she said she had not seen any paperwork on it and that it was probably a forgotten issue because difficult child was turned over to Department of Juvenile Justice and technically no longer in my custody. Even at court last week there apparently were no show cause papers in the file. It wasn't a situation where I could have called up any time this past year and arranged the evaluation to be done. I don't think this resurfaced because the judge just ran across this old order. Either the def attny or someone else has brought it up- but that doesn't really matter. I'm going to try to talk to someone tomorrow and find out if the evaluator really might do a clinical assessment or something along with the written test. All data I have read and my therapist has said that is critical for getting accurate results so I'm not so sure that MST guy ddidn't mislead me last year- it wouldn't be the first time he had. I am not as emphatic about this as I was before difficult child's court last year because he did serve time and get punished for the knife incident. Still, they are obviously already so convinced that something must be wrong with me that's causing this in difficult child they had already planned an outcome. Clealry, that is biased and the evaluation is only to give them appropriate written backing. When/if a show cause is filed, I can ask for an attny. I'm not positive how I will proceed yet. Frankly, I don't think difficult child can be helped appropriately until he is living with someone the system is backing up. The past 3 years, every time difficult child gets into trouble I have been looked at in one way or another- dss mostly because the GAL asked for them to do a family assessment. DSS has reported back to court that they see nothing wrong or any reason to remove difficult child from home and that I was doing everything I could for him and more than the county or state could do for him. Still, when it got to the point that they were going to let difficult child go scot free but order me to treatment after he pulled a knife on me- that tells me that their minds are made up already. And I ssay "they" but it really is most people assuming one person is correct rather than being objective and looking into it themselves. The judge last year had already heard about my previous therapy and so forth and I think that's why she didn't push this order or issue and did punish difficult child. No one in the courtroom now (except for me) was in the courtroom before when I testified to all that so they don't know.
 

klmno

Active Member
I don't have the money to do that and they would blow it off anyway. They blew off EVERY evaluation done on difficult child by state experts and the like. The PO then told the county mental health evaluator what outcome they wanted to see for difficult child and shocker here- that's what the county evaluator came up with and that's what the judge went by. That is exactly why I don't trust this.

In case I need to clarify this- I don't mind getting a diagnosis if it'sd accurate- what I mind is someone in the courts becoming convinced of something then telling a mental hwealth person what to "determine" and ending up with court orders to get a treatment for something that was never accurately diagnosis'd. This screams corruption to me. And if these people really had any respect for mental health treatment, they would realize this is just as wrong as tell any MD what physical diagnosis to come up with and treat someone for.

It was faulty for them to conclude this to begin with. There is NOTHING to indicate that I allow or encourage or cause my son to break the law. I have no record, I am involved and supportive with the sd, I've made sure my son was compliant with appts, etc. But solely because he had a GAL that spent more time listening to my bro blame me and spread this around and everyone assumes she must have been right, I get treated like the delinquent.
And in this juvenile court, I have never seen any attny do anything other than play along with the rest of them so I'm not holding my breath that any attny would really go in there and fight this for me. The most I could hope for is that they help get a low sentnece. There is only so much sentence they can give for something like this. But you know, after 3-4 years and complying with probably 50 orders, I'm a horrible person because I drew a line and didn't jump to let them blame me. So now they act like I wasn't complying all along-0 the record shows differently but they don't care and are ignoring that.
 
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M

ML

Guest
You know too much, you're too smart and you think too much (if that's possible). And you're probably right 99 percent of the time. Having said that, as others have said, unfortunately you're in no position to exercise these gifts. The system has you by the short hairs. Your resources have slowly eroded and you've been beaten down. I don't know how anyone *could* manage to hang on to their sanity after what you've endured. I am so sorry. I hope you feel how much you are loved and supported here and are able to take the great words of advice with the spirit in which they are given. Just wave the white flag of surrender and play their game. They've taken away your options. The more you fight what is, the more grief you will feel. Let go, play along, see what happens and try to hold on to hope. I'm thinking of you dear friend. ML
 
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klmno

Active Member
I think I'm looking at it like waving the white flag would be just let them give whatever consequences they want. Taking the test won't solve anything and neither would doing any treatment they order. They are so convinced that if the previous GAL concluded something she must have had good reason that they can't see any further than that. It doesn't matter if anything is there to support that conclusion or not. I will never see a minute's peace as long as difficult child is living with me. I cannmot control what someone else thinks and this test would not prove otherwise- I could almost guarantee that if it came back and didn't show what they wanted it to they would conclude I wasn't honest on it. Seriously- they are that convinced.

You remember- last year in court the GAL told the judge if difficult child went to Residential Treatment Center (RTC) they couldn't trust me not to pull him out. Well, it was dumb to conclude that because 1) I had never pulled difficult child out of any thing before- although I had switched tdocs for him with good reason but I didn't stop therapy for him, 2) I was the one supporting the idea of Residential Treatment Center (RTC) so why would I pull him out, and most importantly 3) if it was court ordered I would not have been able to puull him out- a secure Residential Treatment Center (RTC) would not have let me just come and get him. Did anyone think about these things? NO. They just automatically went with the conclusion the GAL said. The GAL recommended Department of Juvenile Justice when the plan to send difficult child home with no punishment didn't work then she immediately went to difficult child after court and told him it was my fault. I'm not sayi ng these people are out to get me- I'm saying they are so set on this in their minds that they cannot be objective or see anything that they don't feel confirms what they believe already.
 
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