Surviving parent, whom I love, sad that his kids are estranged

Discussion in 'Family of Origin' started by SomewhereOutThere, Dec 25, 2015.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Just a quick vent.

    I feel really badly for my father, who really wants his children to all get along. Yet we never all did. Ever. There were always issues, and times when, especially Sis, would not speak to me or bro.

    When I got into my accident my dad put pressure on my sister to contact my family. She didn't want to and should not have been pressured into trying. She didn't care about my accident or me and it was wrong to make her fake it. He sent flowers to me in his AND my siblings names, but I never did see the flowers as I was busy being incoherant in surgical ICU so my sister has been said to have been put out that I didn't at least thank her foar the flowers that I didn't know about. It was one more thing, in her opinion, that showed her what a creepy person I am (shrug). An example of when trying to intrude on and control somebody backfired and made things either the same, which wasn't what he wanted, or even worse. Good reminder to stay out of other people's affairs...well meant, but pointless.

    Recently my father lost his temper. My husband, w ho has been terrific as I heal, was told by doctors that stress is very bad for me right now and he could hear, through the speaker of my cell phone, that my father was yelling a nd what he was saying. He took the phone out of my hands and tried to calm him down. At one time he said to my father, "FatherOfSWOT, no, no, no. Even if Sis is willing to drive you up here for a visit I'm sorry. We don't need Sis up here. She is not welcome."

    I really am grateful he said that. I don't really believe Sis would do that in my behalf, even for our father, but just in case...he made it clear it was not just me that did not want any sort of contact. He himself had been (husband had) a victim of her phone calls to him as she tattled on me and her calls to the police and he also knew how i had loved her and how sh e had hurt m e.

    My father is also upset that Brother and I do not talk. Frankly, I'm not sure why we don't talk. Bro wrote me a letter once about what bothered him about me (I hadn't known anything did) and I chose not to read it so I will never know his gripes. I am fine with leaving him to himself. When he visits my father, my father used to try to get us to talk to one another. That would have been so awkward so now I don't call if I know he is with my father. He doesn't go often as he lives far away.

    My father really doesn't get the role my mother played in this estrangement, but that doesn't matter. I am sorry to hurt him, but it was not my choice to not speak to them. They made the choice and now that it is done, I see that it is a good thing for me too. But I would not have initiated a shunning. I would go low contact, but never a shun. It's mean.

    I wish my elderly father did not care.

    I do not believe he has a clue about how dysfunctional our family always was.

    He has been very good to me lately and has stopped mentioning them; respecting my boundary not to discuss them to me or me to them. I am really sorry nobody I know can drive him up here to see where I live, but it's a long, bad ride anyway and I go down there often. He can see me when I visit and he does.

    As I write this, I see my guilty conscience has not gone away. Yet there is nothing I can do...can't even call either one and say, "Hey, let's fake it for Dad." I'd gladly fake it to make him happy.

    Ok, so Christmas is done for us and we had a nice holiday both in Chicago and Wisconsin. Seeing mly father this weekend triggered my guilt, but I'll get over it as I can only control myself, not anybody else.

    Hope you all survived the holiday with happiness. Not expecting any responses. This was a vent. There is not much anybody can say.

    Hugs to all!
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
  2. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    My Mother was like this. Only too late. When we were already old. Near 60 or over. It does not work that way. And my mother never acknowledged her part in sowing seeds of division, of favoritism, of comparing, of making one more this or that.

    She wanted to make it all OK. It was not. She wanted me to forget a lifetime of hurt, betrayal an exclusion. I would not. I told her: I am afraid of (my sister.) I stay away because she hurts me. My mother kept trying. I would say: I will choose for myself. I maintain that right. My mother would not listen. Even after my sister put her in that hospital and threw away the key, without telling me. Even then my mother, after a time, wanted to make nice. Until the end. When my mother saw, what my sister could and would do. And did.
    I do not want to be mean to your father, Serenity, but he chose not to see it. Whether from weakness or fear or convenience, he chose not to see. I give him credit for trying to do what he can do now. But it does not work that way. He is asking you to sacrifice yourself and your family to make nice. So that he feels better.

    If you could do so, without risk of harm, I would say, think about it. But the very reason you stay away from them is because they hurt you. Your sister tries to hurt you to the core. Still. Your brother seems to put himself above you. Feeling he has the right to hurt you by speaking his own truth. Had he had the guts to talk to you face to face, instead of sending a letter, I might feel differently. You might too. He did not.
    It sounds like it.

    Let it go, Serenity. Try to let it go. You show your father respect and care and devotion. You cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Not alone. And not at this late date. That is what I think.

    Your father has relationships with each of his children. That is a lot. It is to his credit. It needs to be enough. It is not in your hands to fix this.

  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thanks copa. Youre right of course. He will have to accept it. Bput he is so old and im sorry he cant have at least the illusion of what he wants.

    But it is not going to happen. He will die sad about this.

    Well, its too bad but I know it has to be.

    Thsnks again.
  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Serenity, it sounds as your Dad must have regrets about his life. Which is a good thing. All thinking and feeling people, do. Let him have his regrets. They are his to own. It is a way of making peace with one's life towards the end, or at the end.

    Everything cannot be tied up in pretty little packages. After all, it is life. After all. It is good that he is thinking this way.

    Thinking you can change it, and trying to, would be enabling. Trying to take away his pain. He would never want that. Really. He is trying because he believes it is the right thing to do. Not because he needs it all to be fixed.

  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    He HAS tried to. But it's not enabling. We don't want him to change it.

    But thanks again for your thoughts.
  6. New Leaf

    New Leaf Well-Known Member

    Dearest Serenity, just wanted to give you a cyber hug and send prayers for peace of soul and mind. The holidays bring heartfelt thoughts and questions.
    You are a kind and gentle soul, and hope the best for your father in the winter of his life.
    You are a loving daughter, and that is the best gift a parent could wish for with any child.


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  7. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    Yes. In a very real way this is so. I would add that I believe the father is doing this at the sister's insistent instigation.

    The father is the sister's victim in this as surely as Serenity is the sister's victim, because she and her father are talking about the sister and what the sister wants and how the sister feels and on and on that one goes.

    Serenity and her father merit the honor of their relationship without the sister's interference.


    "If you could do so, without risk of harm...."

    I read that the wisest thing for us to do is cut all ties (you were right on that one, Serenity) and even, to cut ties with intermediaries, lest the sibling reach out through them for information with which to disparage us or our children. These people have no scruples.

    They work behind our backs, turning even extended family against us with innuendo and even, outright lies.

    Yes. In the brother's defense, I will say he will have been chewed up and spit out by the sister. D H says my brother is the worst of the lot because he is a man and knows better. So, there has been a compromise and, for the sake of the mother, my brother has knowingly left me defenseless after I have done battle for him.

    I would do it again, in a heartbeat.

    But that is D H take on the brothers, whom D H says are not real men, because they have neither defended themselves nor protected their females.

    For all we know, the sister is pushing the father, is using him, not only to get to Serenity, but to make herself look like the gentle, forgiving sister to the father.

    I can be wrong about this part Serenity but the sister has done the same thing once already and you were the one hurt then, too.

    You are always the one who is hurt whenever you have anything to do with that person masquerading as your sister while she tries to suck you dry like the spider at the center of the web.

    Your sister is like my sister, and like Copa's: Not a sister, at all. There is no relationship to restore.

    Run, Serenity.

    That is what they said on the malignant narcissism threads. There is no win, there is no end point; it never stops.



    D H and I were talking the other night about making decisions and taking the consequences without blinking. You made a sound decision to cherish your life and the lives of those you loved over the weird, wickedly hurtful confusion of a lifestyle that included a sister who seems to project her shortcomings onto you. And who works very hard to get everyone around her believing she is your victim when the opposite is true.

    I think the sister is pushing for this in the background, and is using and hurting the father to do it.

    Once the father is gone, the sister will have no access to Serenity or her family. Nasty as I am, I think the sister's actual goal has to do with turning the father, and nothing whatsoever to do with re-establishing relationship to Serenity. The sister will never give up.


    While she discusses how she loves and misses Serenity with the father, and stokes him up to risk his own relationship with Serenity for her sake, the sister is also learning all kinds of things about Serenity and her family and her healing from the father, to whom the sister has presented herself ~ one more time ~ as Serenity's innocent, heartbroken victim. The sister is heartlessly manipulating the father, making him feel guilty and responsible when the truth is that he and Serenity were probably the only truly decent human beings in Serenity's family of origin.

    Looks like I know everything again, today. Good. I have missed that about me.



    I have been reading about these kinds of people in the malignant narcissism postings. They never stop. That is what makes them malignant. They are focused somehow on whichever person it is they have targeted, and they never, ever stop. One of the stories I read had to do with a malignant narcissist whose victim died under mysterious circumstances that no one really believed had anything to do with the narcissistic twin sister who then committed suicide one year to the day later.

    To the day. To have that day for her date of death, too. Speculation was that without the sister to focus on and live through, the malignant narcissist had no reason to live. Suspicion that she was in fact her sister's murderer still exists.

    They do things like that.

    That is where I learned too that we must cut ties even with intermediaries, or the malignant narcissist will call them, out of the blue, pump them for information and tell them some unsavory thing about us to weigh the relationship toward the dark side. Having opened that contact, the malignant narcissist will have access to that person whenever she needs a little information about the person she is obsessively attached to.

    My sister does these kind of things, you guys.

    And I know it, but I don't believe it, except that I know it is true. It seems like that cannot really be true. Who would do such things, and for what?

    And yet, they do.

    The sister should not be using the father like that. Shame on her for using him this way to insert herself into the relationship between Serenity and her father.

    That is another benefit to the sister's behavior.


    I know.

    Bad Cedar.

    But they do things like this as a matter of course.

    It has nothing to do with wanting relationship with Serenity, I don't think. It has to do with hurting the father, making him feel guilty to soften him up for something else the sister wants.

    What a biatch.

    I know.

    Bad Cedar.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    No. She is the one who did the shunning, not me. She likes the shun. She DID stalk me for a while. Hopefully she has more in her life now and I believe she may have stopped. But she didn't tell my father to make things better. He just really loved his sibs and can't imagine that we don't all get along...although it is impossible with Sis. And brother? I have no idea what his deal is and don't want to find out because it would be deliberately hurtful. Nobody is pressuring my father..he is pressuring himself. But I still feel badly.

    I think it's more my father trying to talk to us, although he has stopped talking to me about her. That's why I'm sad for him. He really cares.

    Of course not. I know this and don't want a REAL relationship with her. Nobody has a real relationship with her because she hides herself. This isn't about her. It's about my dad and his feelings and wishes.

    There is much he did not see. True. It's not being mean.

    This applies to my brother as well, I believe. My sister shunned him most of his life for very mean reasons.
    Oh, with all the cruel things she said about him repeatedly through the years (and not long before she suddenly decided to befriend him because she NEEDS her DNA connections and had shunned ME) he is her b*tch. I don't know how he can't see that, but that isn't my problem. She was meaner to and about him than she ever was to me and is only nice to him now because there is something in it for her. It's not about him or his feelings at all. And he can be very giving. She can exploit that.

    This says it all. Even when she is acting nice, there is an ulterior motive. But that is the problem of those who decide to trust her. I doubt many get too close to her. She pushes everyone away and hides her true self and is good at knowing what to say that people want to hear. There is an ugliness in her core that even I did not really understand until this last time. Married men (not caring if she hurt the wife or baby). Abusive boyfriends (getting angry at me for trying to help her deal with him when she ASKED for advice...then accepting his abuse and calling ME abusive) and dragging brother in when she did not let him into her life and her wedding because he was "gross and ugly." Who does that? Marrying a man she never loved.

    The kindest thing to do regarding father was to wait until he was gone to cut contact. We coule have been very low contact until then. But my father is still here, and he is old and very upset over this. My brother is adding to this scenario.

    Well, this was just a vent. I can't and won't try to change anything. My dad will have to die being sad about this. It is not new. He was aware of all the fighting and sister's wedding exclusion, my siste' talking about gross brother, my sisters cut offs of me and our disagreements (I am not innocent but I don't do c ut offs) and my mother's behavior when we were little that set this up. He was not home enough to see how she treated all of us...golden brother, invisible sister, scapegoat daughter...

    There are very negative consequences to covering your ears and saying, "La, la, la...I won't listen."

    I still feel badly about it. I don't really think he got it until my husband calmly told him that we don't want Sister up here or in our lives and when Princess didn't answer Sister's forced-by-father text when I was in surgical ICU. He sees now that my real family wants nothing to do with FOO. Before, he probably thought it was just me. That's the way he thinks. It's not just me. My entire family is done.

    But we would have kept up a low contact act for Dad. I don't want to hurt him at his age especially.

    Ok, Done venting.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Cedar, I agree. To talk to somebody honestly who talks to the narc is to ask for more trouble. I am very fortunate that I don't know anyone, except my father, who also knows her. I limit what I tell my father so that he can not tell her much about me. I hate to do it, but my life is nobody's business except who I talk to. I hope she never learns my address, but it doesn't matter if she does. She will never again talk to me so there will be no more bogus reasons for her to call the cops. Anyway, just like in our old town, we know a lot of t he cops and she would not be believed. Hubby knows many from working places and they know we're not "crazy." She would not be believed. Again. I still don't want her to bother them over nothing.

    So maybe the total cut off is best, even if it hurts Dad. She IS a threat to me...or anyone she feels is not under her control.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you. Again, I am not perfect. I have made mistakes. I regret them. But, yes, I love him and he loves me. My mother did not so I value it all t he more. Thanks again.
  11. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I live in the small city of my father's birth. Where he was raised, and where he would bring me for holidays to his parents' house. My earliest memories are from here, except it was a place one fifth the size it is now.

    My father was one of 7 children. His youngest brother still lives and I have a cousin here a few years older than I am.

    On the surface we have things in common: she is a CPA, or was, before she retired. I like her husband. He is warmer to me than is she.

    This time since I have lived here, 7 years, I have never been to her house, nor she to mine. My house is always in a state of "process" that is mess, so I have always said to myself, when it is done, I will invite them.

    A couple of years ago my sister sent me an email asking for my cousin's contact information. She wanted a family history with respect to cancer. My sister had breast cancer, and she said her doctor wanted the history.

    I gave my sister the history I did know. I called my cousin who said to have share her my sister call her.

    My cousin also had breast cancer.

    I had reason to call her house for some general business info. Her husband answered the phone, who was also a CPA. In the background, I heard my cousin, and her husband told her, it is Copa, your cousin. She did not send her hello. She did not come to the phone. She ignored me.

    I always have felt that my sister had poisoned the well, with her. Always before there was courtesy.

    It hurts me. I am old now. If something happens to M, I will have nobody. I will have my son, but if he does not get his act together, he will little be able to help me.

    I know this is self-serving but it is true, too.

    It inspires me to get it together myself to live fully so I do not have to worry about how this show on the road closes. I will have worn myself it will not much matter. Except it will.

    Who knows? My son could marry and have a loving wife and kids. Or M's kids and I could finally meet, and they could like me. He has 9. We could be living in Mexico then. Who knows?

    But it did hurt. If I tell the truth, it did.

  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Yep. I get it. My sister is now in a "cousin's club." We never knew our cousins at all so anything she says about me, well, she got there first and, as I said, can put on a great act as this nice person and cover up her soul. I have no intention of barging in on that party...I never knew them before and I don't need to know them now...but it would be interesting to see how they greeted me if I ever did decide to meet them. When my sister did confide in me, she was always criticizing my brother, our family (the one she suddenly reveres), and her own friends, making fun of their boyfriends and choices. Yet, to her face, she is all smiles and they and their boyfriends are great. Can't tell you how many "friends" she told me were crazy or, her fav word, probably borderline. If I told them what she said, they would have to believe me because there are details she told me that I could not have known without her telling me. Such as that one of her best friends boyfriend is a big loser and ugly and toothless with a poodle he takes everywhere (what kind of man carries a poodle around, she asks me). That's how she treats people she "likes" and I'm sure she has plenty to say about me to dirty the well.

    Fortunately, I have no interest in really finding out what she has said, although perhaps I will findn out if there is a family tragedy one day. I hope not to linger long enough to talk to people though.

    Of course it hurt you, Copa. It hurts me too. My sister has hurt me as much as my mother did. But most of the time I am over it now and over her. In fact, I know how much she wanted a family like the one I have...I pity her. She divorced to find the man of her dreams and hasn't found him. For all I know, she's still with her abuser. It is now six years she has dumped her husband because she never loved him (her words) and she is still alone. The older you are, I feel the harder it must be to meet somebody. Hey, I don't care if she meets Prince Charming. It's just hasn't happened yet. She is very pretty too. Maybe the men she meets are onto her and not fooled like many women have been and still are. Or maybe she just disregards decent men for bad boys. I don't know.

    Thanks for t h e support of the vent. There is nothing I can do about it. Just sad for my dad because I know how much it hurts him.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Copa, I hope for you one day it won't matter. Remember "what you think of me is none of my business."

    I wasted too much time caring. I hope, dear friend, you waste less time than I did. You don't need people who are that way, no matter what happens.

  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    In our case, I got there first.

    All I said once, over a 23 year period (I lived here in the 90's too, for 3 years, and thereafter my cousin was my accountant) was this: My sister and I have issues, or something like that. It was a statement that covered the relationship. Not that she was bad. Nor I. One time. How many years ago, I do not know.

    So my sister had free rein to paint me as she wished. To my cousin. About my mother's death, about my being sole executor.

    There are so many ways that I am different than my sister, or this cousin. All 3 of us have professions, are in the same social class. But I am like the pretender. The one who seems to be the impostor. To not belong. To be different. Unworthy.

    I am not sure if it is in my own head.

    I am always doing things like Cedar's dragon whose egg hatched among chickens. Everything she did or was, was wrong, wrong, wrong. Bad, bad, bad.

    And she cannot figure out if she is a dragon or just an inferior, misguided chicken.

    That is me.

    My mother did not put a value judgment on it. She could not support me, but she knew my worth. To my sister? She lives as if she was the crown princess who unfortunately was born amidst plebians. Everything about me she turns her nose up.

    And there is nothing at all about my sister that would give anybody the sense of her superiority...except for her belief that it is so. She is your garden variety arriveste. However that is spelled.

    And me? There was always, I think, a glittery thing about me. I look nothing like and am nothing like Audrey Hepburn. But you know how there is something about her, how nothing can touch her, her innocence and vulnerability? I have something of the same. But my sister always, always thought and behaved as if there was something dirty about me. I believed that too.

    I am thinking if maybe I projected that onto my sister. If my sister is my victim?

    Could be. I will think about it.

  15. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    As is mine.

    It is the strangest thing to see it from this changed perspective. It isn't that I didn't know before. I did not let myself see. I did not believe, no matter how blatant the action and no matter whether it was taken right in front of my eyes, as was the case with my brother's take on his and my relationship when my sister was visiting.

    It was like he'd been turned 10 years old, again.

    These things do not seem kind and so, sometimes, we disbelieve them.

    But they are true.


    I am sorry that is happening to you now, Copa. You will need to create your own good people around you. There are people on this site who have moved away from their homes and families to get out from under some stupidly predatory parent or sibling.

    Man, these people just will not leave us alone.

    What are they afraid of, I wonder.
  16. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I hear you.

    I have never said anything to anybody about my sister...I should amend that to nobody who knows or may get to know her. She is very paranoid about what others think of her too. If I were the revengeful, evil b*tch she says I am, I know how to reach most of the people she hangs out with and, like I said, the things she told me are not things I would know details of if she hadn't told them to me so I'd be very credible.And catty and mean too...about those who were supposedly her best friends.

    I don't plan on ever doing that. I don't care about her friends. If I ever have to meet my cousins and find out s he said things to them....I don't know. Probably just "Whatever." I am done getting into it with her.
  17. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

  18. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    Because of the luncheon, because she had arranged to get most of the mother's assets, because she deserted the mother when she called for your protection, and because of the response to M, I think you are the sister's victim, Copa. People just don't do the things she has routinely done.

    Nor do they do the things my sister has routinely done.

    I couldn't see it, either. I still get a nasty little shock when I think about the dissonance in everything that has happened. And in all of it, the win so pointlessly stupid that I wondered what was the matter with me, that I was thinking like this.

    The things the sisters do make sense only if they hate us. Why they would not simply leave us alone if they hate us, I don't know. Well, we think. Surely that can't be true. These are our sisters. So, until we know better, or until we have support from those trapped in the same rotten kind of family dynamic, we chalk it up to a one time lapse maybe, or we think we are the ones who misunderstood. Or we wonder whether we are secretly jealous or secretly showing off or were secretly rude. Or what. The point being that we wonder what we did.

    If we'd done something, we would know what we did.

    That is why the sisters do what they do, maybe. They know we will be caught entirely off balance and stuck in trying to do the right thing. Like any normal person would.

    But apparently, there are predators out there, and these are exactly the kinds of things that they do.

    I am thinking the persons approached by the sisters eventually conclude that whole side of the family must be unsavory nutcases.


    I don't know whether this is a result of family of origin dysfunction, or if it is that the original dysfunctions were created by a genetic abnormality in one of the parents and then, the genetic abnormality was passed to one or more of the children.

    I think my mom and my sister see nothing wrong in anything they do. I didn't really see anything wrong in what they do, either. That was just how mom was, or how sister was. I was quite defensive of my sister, actually. Even to my mother. Until she intentionally hurt my daughter and I stopped seeing what they do as hurtful but unimportant.

    But how could we not have learned very top notch denial skills in families where our people do not love us and may not even see us as real outside whatever game it is they are playing?

    Isn't that something.

    Has anyone read or seen the movie East of Eden?

    It's like that. We are hooked like the man who fell in love with the woman he found on the doorstep and saved. She also was without integrity. At the end, she "escapes" from her marriage and becomes a madam in a whorehouse. That is where she wanted to be; that is who she was.

    She even tries to destroy her youngest son. He is a decent man, like his father.
    John Steinbeck wrote East of Eden.

  19. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    You know...nothing is uglier than fighting over a supposed loved one who is dying or died. That did not happen in my FOO...of course, I chose not to do anything about being disinherited. I probably would have lost anyway, but, if I were really a troublemaker, I could have caused a lot of grief. It never crossed my mind to interfere with my mother's wishes, even though they hurt me. I never saw her will.I am always surprised and repulsed when grown children fight over parental assets in ugly ways.

    I think it is about the worst thing one can not let a loved one die or rest in peace and to make drama, AT THAT TIME. It's just so ugly and means that all you cared about, regarding the person, was money. I am so sorry, Copa and Cedar, that this dynamic happened in your FOO.

    I know my father has me in his will and all I want, when he passes (and I dread that day) is what he wanted me to have. No fighting. No court. I hope my brother is as honest as my father thinks he is.
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    They do hate us. Maybe they love/hate us, but the hate is there. I give up trying to figure out my sister, except that she always seems to need somebody to be her scapegoat. First brother, now me. But, yes, she came back and back and back and would probably eventually come back again if she had not stalked me here and read that she will not be welcomed back. Ever. I don't get her on/off thing. (Shrug) No longer my problem.

    Sisters don't have to be your problems either. I hope you both can learn to let them and their opinions go.

    "What you think of me is none of my business." I love this!!!!!